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00:36 eli: mithos28: ping
00:36 mithos28: eli: pong
00:36 mithos28: you need a public key?
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09:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/M38NIg
09:09 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c56b73a Matthew Flatt: JIT: fix slow-path boxing for non-self-tail calls with unboxed arguments...
09:09 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 33c6635 Matthew Flatt: version 5.3.3.5...
09:09 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 5fcc96e Matthew Flatt: add space before "View Prior Versions"
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09:14 samth: jaimef: yes, see: http://docs.racket-lang.org/inside/index.html
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09:16 asumu: Wow, a JIT bug that led to icons blacking out.
09:16 asumu did not expect that as the cause
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09:23 samth: asumu: i have no idea how matthew found that bug
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11:28 samth: mithos28: pong
11:28 mithos28: So checking annotations one every expression is going to be tricky
11:29 mithos28: every special case that examines something more then the current expression needs to do something
11:30 samth: mithos28: right
11:30 samth: mithos28: right now we're bailing out of the special cases if the overall application is annotated
11:30 samth: and we could think about doing something more like that
11:31 samth: mithos28: i agree that it's not necessary for your current patch
11:31 mithos28: right, the question is how to do that with minimal overhead in the cases and to make sure it is done by default
11:32 samth: mithos28: yeah, and for that i don't have any brilliant ideas at the moment
11:33 mithos28: ok, me neither. I have a patch for tc/index in the works.
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11:43 mithos28: samth: are these two pull requests good to go in, https://github.com/plt/racket/pull/222 and https://github.com/plt/racket/pull/219
11:44 samth: mithos28: one sec -- i plan to go through all of your PRs today
11:44 mithos28: great
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11:53 20WABZ50P: hello all
11:53 mithos28: 20WABZ50P: Hello
11:53 (nick) 20WABZ50P -> paddymahoney
11:54 (quit) noelw: Quit: noelw
11:55 paddymahoney: so I have been working on some code that uses the mzscheme form define-syntax-set.
11:55 samth: paddymahoney: why are you using that?
11:56 paddymahoney: hi samth-I'm working on moving the eopl collection to racket from mzscheme
11:56 samth: paddymahoney: ah, ok
11:56 samth: paddymahoney: you probably want to mention this to david van horn, who's the maintainer of that bit of code
11:57 samth: paddymahoney: the best way to replace `define-syntax-set` is either with `define-syntaxes` for small examples or with a submodule for larger examples
11:57 mithos28: and begin-for-syntax for helper functions
11:58 paddymahoney: I've gone the begin-for-syntax and provided the transformer bindings.
11:58 paddymahoney: *route
11:58 paddymahoney: my issue is that it looks as if eopl is somehow providing the bindings at both phase 1 and phase 0!
11:59 mithos28: are you putting the define-syntax in the the begin-for-syntax?
12:00 paddymahoney: ie. there are provides in the file that refer to transformer bindings bound by the define-syntax-set.
12:00 mithos28: Can you paste the code somewhere?
12:00 samth: paddymahoney: `define-syntax` (and `define-syntax-set`) bind the transformers at phase 0, not phase 1
12:01 paddymahoney: ah. That explains it.
12:01 paddymahoney: Thank you sam tb!
12:01 paddymahoney: *sam th
12:02 paddymahoney: @mithos28: let me work on this a bit, see if I can get it working.
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12:03 samth: mithos28: btw, i created this: https://github.com/plt/racket/wiki/Typed-Racket-plans
12:03 samth: mithos28: feel free to add to it
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12:03 mithos28: Yeah I saw
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12:08 jonrafkind: hm, why cant i push to git.racket-lang.org today
12:08 jonrafkind: it asks me for my password even though i have ssh keys set up and ive done this 28348234 times in the past
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12:09 mithos28: jonrafkind: Eli played around with stuff last night to give me commit access
12:09 samth: jonrafkind: you've been outsourced to india
12:09 jonrafkind: eggsellenet!
12:10 mithos28: I haven't tried commiting yet so I don't know if it works for me either
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12:15 Licenser: aloa
12:15 paddymahoney: hi
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12:17 Licenser: I was wondering, does racket make sense for a console application (think grep) or is it not particulary suited for that?
12:18 samth: mithos28: now you have plenty of merging to do :)
12:18 clements_: Licenser: in general, yes. What did you have in mind?
12:18 samth: Licenser: racket works well for that sort of thing, but it may have startup time issues for very short running programs
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12:18 paddymahoney: I would say yes.
12:19 Licenser: clements_ I want to write a client for a REST/JSON API and I kind of wanted to play with racket :) just wondering if string formating, argument parsing is going to get in the way :)
12:20 mithos28: samth: Thanks, I'll probably do it tonight after work
12:20 samth: mithos28: great
12:20 clements_: Licenser: aside from the startup time issues that samth mentioned, I would say you're in good shape.  Racket has pretty good support for command-line parsing, and good regexp support.
12:21 samth: Licenser: racket has a quite nice interface to JSON also
12:21 clements_: ooh, right, that too. :)
12:21 Licenser: cool :) looks like I got myself a toy project to play with racket thanks samth clements_ !
12:22 samth: Licenser: see http://docs.racket-lang.org/json/index.html?q=json
12:22 Licenser takes a peak at that
12:22 Licenser: internet is darn slow here right now so that might take a while
12:23 didi: Licenser: If you can, install the local documentation. It's awesome.
12:23 paddymahoney: I have been working at using it as my shell as well. It has been pretty smooth so far. I'd eventually like to release a scsh-like with some of the conveniences to make racket look a little like parenthesized shell.
12:24 Licenser: didi will do that when I'm at home, also grab racket, doesn't make sense over EDGE
12:24 didi: Licenser: oic
12:24 Licenser: IRC is quick enough but most everything else comes to a crawl
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12:25 clements_: paddymahoney: any hope of having auto-balancing parens? That's always seemed like the killer in a parenthesized shell.
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12:27 didi: Hum, maybe adding something like paredit to the shell.
12:28 clements_: didi: something like that.
12:28 paddymahoney: clements_: let me keep that in mind going forward...is there a particular implementation you like? paredit?
12:30 jonrafkind: clements_, sup
12:30 paddymahoney: even something in a less lispy lang :)
12:30 clements_: paddymahoney: I like and use the paren-balancing in DrRacket (actually, I developed its first iteration), but I'm not a paredit user; I don't have super-strong feelings about exactly what flavor of paren-balancing it uses.
12:30 clements_: jonrafkind: Fooey! I dropped the ball. Time later today?
12:30 jonrafkind: yea sure
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12:31 jonrafkind: theres a small department thing-a-majig at 2pm, but anything else is ok
12:31 clements_: jonrafkind: I have to see if I can successfully install skype on this fancy smartphone that someone gave me :)
12:31 jonrafkind: heh
12:31 clements_: jonrafkind: you're an hour ahead, right?
12:31 jonrafkind: yea i think so
12:31 clements_: MST?
12:31 jonrafkind: its 10:30 here now
12:31 clements_: Yep.
12:31 clements_: How about 3:30 your time?
12:31 jonrafkind: ok sure
12:32 paddymahoney: clements_: Gotcha!
12:32 clements_: okay, I'll give you a call. I'm… what's my skype name. Lemme check.
12:32 clements_: jonrafkind: I'm jbclements on skype.
12:33 jonrafkind: ok ill add you
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12:38 paddymahoney: Suggestion: a regular (scheduled?) Racket google+ hangout, or something similar that is not Google-based. I'd love to meet some Racket folk, but as a poor looking-for-work person it is difficult to make it to the States for RacketCon.
12:38 jonrafkind: isnt that what irc is
12:38 paddymahoney: haha yes! with audio! and video!
12:39 jonrafkind: irc is like telepathy. the future is now!
12:39 paddymahoney: Ah get out of my head! *tears hair*
12:40 paddymahoney: :)
12:47 paddymahoney: I don't mean to evangelize Hangouts in particular, just like seeing and hearing people, is all.
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13:07 greghendershott: paddymahoney: You could start a Hangout yourself; post about it ahead of time at https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/108652050642990465975 and see who shows up?
13:07 greghendershott: Depending on the time I might show up, for example.
13:07 asumu: I wish I learned GC with this: http://brownplt.github.com/2013/02/19/teaching-gc.html
13:07 dyoo: yes, that assignment is _very_ cool.
13:07 greghendershott: asumu: Yeah that's spiffy.
13:09 asumu learned PL in a PLAI-based course, but we didn't talk too much about GC
13:11 paddymahoney: greghendershott: Thanks-I think I will at some point. Probably should have phrased it as "Looking to gauge interest" rather than a suggestion
13:13 dyoo: paddymahoney: definitely interested
13:16 paddymahoney: dyoo: I'll make sure to +1 you when I post something in the community.
13:17 soegaard: We (a group of 3) implemented (in C) a large R4RS subset in our compiler course. My task was the VM and the garbage collector. I learned the hard way, that a garbage collector is hard to debug.
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13:19 soegaard: If there was a bug in a VM instruction, the diaster would only be observed hundreds of instructions later, when tge GC kicks in (with a core dump as result).
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13:20 soegaard: Which mean that it is *very* difficult to find the location of the bug.
13:20 paddymahoney: That sounds fiendishly difficult.
13:20 soegaard: Yes!
13:21 soegaard: In other words, http://brownplt.github.com/2013/02/19/teaching-gc.html is a brilliant idea.
13:22 soegaard: Incidently we used A-normal form back then too.
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14:43 soegaard: rudybot: (require math) (matrix [[2] [3]])
14:43 rudybot: soegaard: sort of a reverse 'matrix' effect
14:44 soegaard: rudybot: eval (require math) (matrix [[2][3]])
14:44 rudybot: soegaard: your sandbox is ready
14:44 rudybot: soegaard: ; Value: #<array #(2 1) #[2 3]>
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14:49 soegaard: I don't get it. My machine just says (Array ...)
14:52 soegaard: Hmm. My output style was "Constructor" for some reason.
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15:03 vipjun: If I have this in a cond statement [(assoc y ys) => (lambda (x) (cons "found" x))]
15:04 vipjun: will x contain what is returned?
15:04 stamourv: `x' will be bound to the result of `(assoc y ys)'.
15:04 stamourv: rudybot: (define y 'a)
15:04 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
15:05 stamourv: rudybot: (define ys '((a . 1) (b . 2)))
15:05 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
15:05 vipjun: thanks.
15:05 stamourv: rudybot: (cond [(assoc y ys) => (lambda (x) (cons "found" x))])
15:05 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: ("found" a . 1)
15:05 stamourv: vipjun: ^
15:05 vipjun: if i just have [(assoc y ys)] then it will return the value if found , if it returns #f then it moves to the next condition ?
15:06 (quit) bjz_: Read error: Connection reset by peer
15:06 vipjun: well i'll test that thanks stamourv
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15:06 stamourv: vipjun: Correct.
15:07 vipjun: cheers. we're doing racket on coursera atm. so we'll probably be asking many questions here :)
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15:12 stamourv: vipjun: Cool! Is that Dan Grossman's course?
15:13 vipjun: yes
15:13 stamourv: How is it?
15:13 vipjun: well , i've only wrote about 1000 lines of code before the course. so it's very challenging for me. But am learning a lot
15:15 vipjun: for example: my function works. but the questions i was asking were due to me having a limited knowledge of racket, and i wanted the code to be cleaner.
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15:45 jonrafkind: eli, ping
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16:12 ijp: asumu: yeah, the gc language is pretty neat
16:18 ijp: at one point I thought I found a bug in it, but looking back it was probably intentional
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17:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bPvS5A
17:55 RacketCommitBot: racket/master bd1141c Stephen Chang: fix bug in getting "rest" of an integer-set
17:55 (part) RacketCommitBot
17:59 dca: hi. i am trying to profile my program and future-visualizer shows that it spends great deal of time on "values" primitive though i don't use it at all
18:00 dca: what could that mean ?
18:00 dyoo: hmmm… not sure; I havne't played with futures yet.
18:00 dyoo: anyone else?
18:01 dyoo: dca: what is your program like, by the way?  What does it do?
18:01 dca: http://ompldr.org/vaGpiYQ
18:01 clements_: dca: 'values' can occur a lot in macro expansions, where the macro doesn't know whether the given expression produces a single value or multiple values....
18:01 dca: it does simple raytracing
18:02 dca: i use for macro
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18:02 dca: like
18:02 dca: (for* ([x screen-width)]
18:02 dca: [y screen-height])
18:02 dca: blabla)
18:03 dyoo: Is screen-width an integer here?
18:03 clements_: I'm not familiar with the futures visualizer. Is this showing that values is taking a long time, or that it's causing a block?
18:03 dca: yeah
18:03 dyoo: If so, you may want to annotate the loop a bit more so the loop compiler can do a better job
18:03 dca: though i use flonums where possible
18:03 dyoo: otherwise, it does the really generic sequence api when walking the sequence, and that might be introducing the superfluous values stuff.
18:03 dca: e.g convert x, y to flnums using ->fl
18:04 dyoo: e.g. (for* ([x (in-range screen-width)] …) ...)
18:05 dyoo: should generate more efficient code than what you have, because the for loop knows that it's going to iterate across numbers.
18:06 dyoo: See the comment in http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/sequences.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt%29._in-range%29%29 where they use the phrase "An in-range application can provide better performance..."
18:06 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/bx68tgl
18:07 dca: so that's -> http://pastebin.com/zisuKF1V
18:07 dca: i've made use of in-range but that hasn't sped up a thing
18:07 dyoo: nuts.
18:09 dyoo: how well does it work outside of drracket, out of curiosity?
18:09 dca: i don't use drracket
18:10 dyoo: Unfortunately, I'm out of scope here; I just haven't played with futures yet. Sorry!
18:11 dca: no problems
18:11 dca: thanks
18:12 dca: i guess i could post it to the mailing list
18:17 dyoo: Yup, sounds good.  That will reach the people who know better.  :p
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18:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/o_RGbA
18:35 RacketCommitBot: racket/master aeff592 Stephen Chang: add test for integer-set:...
18:35 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9e26cd0 Stephen Chang: one more integer-set test
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18:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/uJp_1w
18:43 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 0b0ce65 Danny Yoo: Note that integer-sqrt produces exact output when given exact input....
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19:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/6QxyWQ
19:20 RacketCommitBot: racket/master fa4fb3e Danny Yoo: Add reference to the DrRacket interface essentials from the Quick Start guide....
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20:58 yeboot: is there any way to loop in racket other than (define (loop) (procedures)... (loop))
20:58 yeboot: C equivalent of for(;;)
20:58 yeboot: is*
20:59 yeboot: docs.racket-lang.org/guide/for.html
20:59 yeboot: just found that
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21:19 offby1: lots of ways, as you can see
21:20 yeboot: yeah, it's pretty cool
21:20 yeboot: I was just concerned about stack use, even though that's well beneath the scope of the language
21:21 adu: yeboot: you can loop with let
21:22 adu: (let loop (vars) (procedures) (loop))
21:22 adu: yeboot: the closest thing to for is map
21:23 bremner: racket also has a bunch of for macros
21:24 chandler: the closest thing to C for is probably `do', but for the love of gods don't use it
21:24 bremner: they're not exactly like C for though, closer to map
21:24 yeboot: I don't necesarily want C, I just don't want stack problems
21:24 bremner: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/for.html?q=for#%28part._for_and_for_%29
21:24 yeboot: :)
21:25 bremner: yeboot: stack problems are not likely, because of tail recursion
21:25 bremner: or more precisely, because of tail call optimization.
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21:26 yeboot: which racket does automatically?
21:27 bremner: yep
21:27 bremner: try it out in the debugger in DrRacket...
21:29 bremner: actually the for macro is pretty close in style to an C/Java/what-have-you for loo
21:30 bremner: err, loop. not loo ;)
21:31 yeboot: racket is prtty fast
21:31 yeboot: I'm suprised
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21:36 adu: yeboot: some say racket is the fastest scheme
21:36 adu: except perhaps stalin
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21:48 vipjun: In DrRacket, What does the red / green colors show when you choose optimization coach?
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21:57 offby1: I'd guess red means "this is slow"
21:57 offby1: green probably means "fast"
21:57 offby1: *shrug*
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22:06 leo2007: can racket auto-revert a file?
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22:14 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/wIH2Aw
22:14 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 661c29b Robby Findler: tweak
22:14 RacketCommitBot: racket/master a25a073 Robby Findler: new simplified string constants; from Chongkai Zhu
22:14 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 5eddac7 Robby Findler: fix the use of impersonator-ephemerons in the framework preferences library
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22:18 yeboot: is that a joke adu
22:18 yeboot: or is stalin a scheme dialect as well
22:20 adu: stalin is a compiler for scheme
22:20 adu: I tried reading the source code for stalin one day, and my head exploded
22:21 yeboot: was it like reading gcc
22:21 adu: no, gcc actually makes sense if you stare at it long enough
22:22 adu: for example:
22:22 adu: https://github.com/barak/stalin/blob/master/source/stalin3a.sc
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22:25 Nisstyre-laptop: adu: I would not expect it to be readable
22:26 Nisstyre-laptop: it's the work of one guy
22:26 Nisstyre-laptop: anyway that file is epic
22:27 ambrosebs: Just added some simple (but effective) flow analysis to core.typed (was Typed Clojure). https://gist.github.com/frenchy64/5001763
22:27 yeboot: wow adu
22:27 yeboot: it looks like they need to take from some of the design principles in sicp, too
22:28 yeboot: 'if you're doing something over and over you're doing something wrong'
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22:28 Nisstyre-laptop: yeboot: well it's not meant to be beautiful, it's supposed to be effective
22:28 Nisstyre-laptop: I'm sure there's a reason he wrote it like that
22:32 adu: yeboot: my idea of a great compiler is a readable compiler, like my code: https://github.com/andydude/droscheme/blob/andrew-working/scm/gos2go-lib.scm
22:32 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/a9blfdc
22:33 adu: uhm, like 528
22:33 adu: s/like/line/
22:37 asumu: stchang: BTW, how did you find the integer-set bug? Are you using them for something?
22:38 asumu: adu, yeboot: except that Racket is not Scheme. :)
22:39 adu: I know, sorry
22:39 asumu: I'm just giving you a hard time. :p
22:40 Nisstyre-laptop: stalin would probably look nicer re-written in Racket
22:41 adu: Nisstyre-laptop: lol
22:41 adu: that might imply someone would have to read it...
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22:42 Nisstyre-laptop: adu: well if I can just read a paper on the principles behind it then no
22:42 asumu: Also, wow, there are a lot of random constants in that tree shaker function.
22:43 asumu: Is this generated code?
22:43 Nisstyre-laptop: could be
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22:52 yeboot: asumu yeah i know
22:52 yeboot: scheme doesn't exactly have structs
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22:58 raphie: does anyone know the runtime of the length function? seems like it'd be O(n) if it has to traverse the whole list to get its length. but that'd make functions like mergesort incredibly slow, no?
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23:50 asumu: Looks like GSoC 2013 was announced just last week: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2013
23:50 asumu: I guess we should apply again as a mentoring org.
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