00:15 eli: dyoo, asumu: that page had never changed, someone from the Turkish group got the domain and had the text logo thing, then he transferred it to us and we thought that it's best to keep the logo. 00:25 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. 00:31 (quit) jao: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 00:43 (quit) eikonos: Quit: Leaving. 01:05 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving 01:07 (join) eikonos 01:07 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 01:07 (join) eikonos 01:09 (join) sysopfb 01:15 (join) trep 01:18 (quit) sysopfb: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 01:21 (join) anonymou3 01:30 (join) hahaha 01:34 (quit) hahaha: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 01:40 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 02:03 (join) gridaphobe 02:06 (quit) cdidd: Remote host closed the connection 02:06 (join) asvil 02:07 (join) mceier 02:13 (join) tsion 02:13 (quit) tsion: Changing host 02:13 (join) tsion 02:16 (quit) rudybot: Ping timeout: 256 seconds 02:16 (join) rudybot 02:28 (join) Kaylin 02:29 (join) hkBst 02:32 (quit) gridaphobe: Remote host closed the connection 02:32 (join) gridaphobe 02:37 (quit) gridaphobe: Ping timeout: 256 seconds 02:41 (quit) tcsc: Quit: computer sleeping 02:43 (quit) tsion: Remote host closed the connection 02:47 (join) tsion 02:47 (quit) tsion: Changing host 02:47 (join) tsion 03:11 (quit) eikonos: Quit: Leaving. 03:14 (join) sirdancealot 03:28 (quit) hkBst: Remote host closed the connection 03:29 (join) hkBst 03:32 (join) rmathews_ 03:34 (quit) rmathews: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 03:34 (nick) rmathews_ -> rmathews 03:35 (quit) hkBst: Ping timeout: 248 seconds 03:37 (join) hkBst_ 03:42 (join) eikonos 03:42 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 03:42 (join) eikonos 03:42 (quit) Kaylin: Quit: Leaving. 03:49 (join) eataix 03:56 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 04:02 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28 04:03 (join) mithos28 04:06 (join) rmathews_ 04:08 (nick) rmathews_ -> rmathews 04:24 (join) eikonos 04:24 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 04:24 (join) eikonos 04:36 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28 04:38 (join) didi` 04:39 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 04:55 (quit) tsion: Quit: Leaving 04:56 (join) ijp 05:06 (join) eikonos 05:06 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 05:06 (join) eikonos 05:20 (join) rmathews_ 05:22 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 05:29 (join) rmathews 05:30 (quit) rmathews_: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 05:49 (join) eikonos 05:49 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 05:49 (join) eikonos 05:56 (quit) rbarraud__: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 06:06 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 06:09 (quit) rmathews: Quit: ... 06:14 (join) soegaard 06:32 (join) bitonic 06:34 (join) eikonos 06:34 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 06:34 (join) eikonos 06:38 (join) rmathews 06:41 (quit) asvil: Remote host closed the connection 06:49 (join) spanner_ 06:49 (join) danl-ndi_ 06:49 (quit) danl-ndi: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 06:49 (quit) spanner: Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds. 06:50 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 248 seconds 07:18 (join) eikonos 07:18 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 07:18 (join) eikonos 07:26 dca-: hi 07:26 dca-: is there analogue of CL's signal protocol in racket ? 07:29 didi`: dca-: Do you mean `signal', the function? Maybe `error'. 07:30 dca-: yeah, plus handler-case, restart-case 07:31 didi`: dca-: Ah, I see what you want. I don't know. 07:36 didi`: dca-: Maybe this 07:36 didi`: I don't know... 07:37 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 07:52 (join) jeapostrophe 07:52 (quit) jeapostrophe: Changing host 07:52 (join) jeapostrophe 07:59 (quit) bitonic: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 08:00 (quit) anonymou3: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 08:03 (join) eikonos 08:03 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 08:03 (join) eikonos 08:11 (join) mizu_no_oto 08:15 (join) RacketCommitBot 08:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket] none pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/7MeQHg 08:15 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 4f13b3f Eli Barzilay: More code therapy. 08:15 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 2f41832 Eli Barzilay: Some shuffling of text, and a `-wiki' for all wiki links. 08:15 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 49ab87e Eli Barzilay: "PLT Scheme Inc" -> "PLT Design Inc" 08:15 (part) RacketCommitBot 08:22 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 08:40 (join) bitonic 08:43 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. 08:44 asumu: eli: Turkish group? 08:45 eli: Yes. 08:46 asumu: Is there a Turkish PLT or something? 08:46 asumu: dca-: You probably just want exceptions, and if you need restarts, you can bundle a continuation in the exception object. 08:46 asumu: (though you'll need to specially handle it at the handling end) 08:49 (join) eikonos 08:49 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 08:49 (join) eikonos 08:50 eli: asumu: Yeah, IIRC, the name you should google for is bilgi 08:53 asumu: Oh neat, I guess they host a mirror. 08:53 (join) anRch 08:58 (join) mizu_no_oto 09:02 (join) Kaylin 09:06 (quit) ijp: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 09:08 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 260 seconds 09:09 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. 09:13 (join) ijp 09:13 (quit) hkBst_: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 09:15 (join) netrino 09:18 (join) hkBst 09:28 (join) cdidd 09:29 (join) mye 09:30 (quit) hkBst: Read error: Connection reset by peer 09:33 (join) hkBst 09:36 (join) eikonos 09:36 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 09:36 (join) eikonos 09:40 (join) francisl 09:47 (quit) hkBst: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 09:50 (join) hkBst 09:51 (join) mizu_no_oto 09:57 (join) jonrafkind 09:57 (quit) jonrafkind: Changing host 09:57 (join) jonrafkind 09:57 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 10:04 (quit) Kaylin: Quit: Leaving. 10:05 (quit) hkBst: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 10:11 (join) hkBst_ 10:15 (quit) hkBst_: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 10:19 (join) hkBst_ 10:22 (join) rins 10:23 (join) eikonos 10:23 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 10:23 (join) eikonos 10:25 (quit) hkBst_: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 10:26 (join) hkBst_ 10:33 (quit) hkBst_: Read error: Connection reset by peer 10:34 (join) hkBst_ 10:40 (quit) hkBst_: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 10:41 (join) hkBst_ 10:42 (join) jao 10:42 (quit) jao: Changing host 10:42 (join) jao 10:43 (quit) anRch: Ping timeout: 272 seconds 10:44 (join) anRch 10:45 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 272 seconds 10:48 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 10:54 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch 11:05 (quit) CoverSlide: Read error: Operation timed out 11:07 (quit) hkBst_: Read error: Connection reset by peer 11:07 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving 11:11 (join) eikonos 11:11 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 11:11 (join) eikonos 11:12 (join) CoverSlide 11:24 (join) hkBst_ 11:25 (join) anonymou2 11:28 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 11:29 (join) Aune 11:35 (join) mithos28 11:37 (join) hkBst__ 11:39 (quit) hkBst_: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 11:40 (join) gridaphobe 11:49 (quit) hkBst__: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 11:51 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"] 11:55 (join) eikonos 11:55 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 11:55 (join) eikonos 11:57 (quit) noelw: Quit: noelw 12:01 (join) noelw 12:03 (quit) bitonic: Remote host closed the connection 12:04 (join) bitonic 12:07 (quit) gridaphobe: Remote host closed the connection 12:08 (join) gridaphobe 12:11 (quit) eikonos: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 12:11 (quit) noelw: Quit: noelw 12:12 (quit) gridaphobe: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 12:19 (join) jeapostrophe 12:19 (quit) jeapostrophe: Changing host 12:19 (join) jeapostrophe 12:20 (join) mceier 12:21 (join) anRch 12:25 (join) tcsc 12:33 (join) eikonos 12:33 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 12:33 (join) eikonos 12:37 (quit) Aune: Quit: Hath Deprated 12:48 anonymou2: Does anyone here hates Haskell? Are there many cases when Haskell is better than Racket? 12:53 (quit) soegaard: Quit: soegaard 12:55 (join) ASau 12:55 (join) Shvillr_ 12:55 (quit) Shviller: Disconnected by services 12:55 (nick) Shvillr_ -> Shviller 12:56 (quit) netrino: Read error: Connection reset by peer 12:56 (join) netrino 12:59 bremner: Haskell versus Typed Racket is perhaps an interesting comparison. 12:59 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch 13:01 Cryovat: Both languages have their strong sides 13:01 Cryovat: I like the brevity of Haskell 13:01 Cryovat: But Template Haskell is icky 13:01 (join) Kaylin 13:12 (quit) tcsc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 13:13 (join) dyoo 13:13 (join) tcsc 13:20 anonymou2: thanks 13:36 anonymou2: Thus, ’(0 . (1 . 2)) becomes '(0 1 . 2), and ’(1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) becomes '(1 2 3) 13:36 anonymou2: s/`/'/g ? 13:37 anonymou2: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/Pairs__Lists__and_Racket_Syntax.html 13:38 didi`: rudybot: '(0 . (1 . 2)) 13:38 rudybot: didi`: your sandbox is ready 13:38 rudybot: didi`: ; Value: (0 1 . 2) 13:38 didi`: rudybot: '(1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) 13:38 rudybot: didi`: ; Value: (1 2 3) 13:38 didi`: anonymou2: It's all about lists and pairs. 13:40 anonymou2: rudybot: ’(1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) 13:40 rudybot: anonymou2: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 13:40 anonymou2: I meant... 13:40 anonymou2: s/’/' 13:40 Cryovat: . is a headache :< 13:41 didi`: Cryovat: I don't use it, but I see its value for alists. 13:41 didi`: The dot, I mean. /me <3 alists 13:43 anonymou2: A list prints with a quote mark before it, but if an element of a list is itself a list, then no quote mark is printed for the inner list 13:43 anonymou2: Can I change it? 13:43 anonymou2: Is it a bad idea? 13:43 bremner: it's different. 13:43 bremner: rudybot: init racket 13:43 rudybot: bremner: your sandbox is ready 13:43 bremner: rudybot: eval (quote (list a b)) 13:43 rudybot: bremner: ; Value: (list a b) 13:44 dyoo: anonymou2: if you're confused, you're not the only one. That's why Racket supports "Constructor"-style printing 13:44 dyoo: if you turn it on, no quotes. 13:44 bremner: rudybot: (eval (quote (list (quote (list a b) c)))) 13:44 rudybot: bremner: error: quote: wrong number of parts in: (quote (list a b) c) 13:44 bremner: oops 13:44 (quit) tcsc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 13:44 dyoo: anonymou2: http://docs.racket-lang.org/drracket/output-syntax.html?q=constructor#%28idx._%28gentag._49._%28lib._scribblings%2Fdrracket%2Fdrracket..scrbl%29%29%29 13:44 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/apoxmwa 13:45 bremner: rudybot: eval (quote (list (quote (list a b)))) 13:45 rudybot: bremner: ; Value: (list (quote (list a b))) 13:46 bremner: rudybot: eval (quote (list (list a b))) 13:46 rudybot: bremner: ; Value: (list (list a b)) 13:47 dyoo: anonymou2: It's one of the reasons why DrRacket supports Constructor-style printing, to address one of the concerns in the "Why Calculating is Better Than Scheming" critique. See: http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/1055/why-calculating-is-better-than-scheming 13:47 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/c6jfoz3 13:48 (join) snorble_ 13:50 anonymou2: Thank you very much. Why doesn't such a prograssive language like Racket just remove the, it seems, rudimentary part: . ? 13:50 dyoo: anonymou2: BSL does not have ".". 13:50 dyoo: Try it. You'll see an error message. 13:51 anonymou2: Is BSL as cool as racket? 13:51 anonymou2: Racket* 13:52 dyoo: BSL is supported _in_ Racket. It's one of the many languages that Racket supports. 13:52 dyoo: anonymou2: http://docs.racket-lang.org/drracket/languages.html 13:53 anonymou2: Right now I mean bu racket "a programming language—a dialect of Lisp and a descendant of Scheme;", not "a family of programming languages—variants of Racket, and more;" (according to http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/intro.html ) . Do you mean the same? 13:53 anonymou2 is going to read the last link 13:54 (join) tcsc 13:54 (join) gridaphobe 13:54 dyoo: Ok, so I think you're asking about this: is there a possiblity for "#lang racket" to change so that dotted pairs aren't a part of the language. Is that right? 13:54 anonymou2: BSL, as I got(I haven't read the link yet) is not about the first meaning, but the second 13:54 anonymou2: yes 13:56 anonymou2: And why isn't it the ubiquitous practice 13:56 dyoo: anonymou2: in that case, I have no idea. For the forseeable future, probably not, just because so much code uses it. But larger jumps have happened in the past (e.g. elimination of mutable pairs), so there's always the possiblity. It would require a lot of convincing, I think. 13:56 anonymou2: ...and official 13:56 (join) soegaard 13:56 didi`: I don't see any benefit of removing dotted pairs. 13:57 anonymou2: AFAIK, when many people use a rudimentary feature, this feature is starting to be deprecated for a long time 13:57 anonymou2: 21:40 < Cryovat> . is a headache :< 13:58 anonymou2: Isn't it a good reason to remove? 13:58 anonymou2: that* 13:58 anonymou2: Why don't Racket developers name . as deprecated? 13:58 anonymou2: ...or something? 14:00 anonymou2: ...and later. Maybe in many years 14:00 anonymou2: remove it 14:09 greghendershott: Instead of e.g. #hash(['a . 0]['b . 1]) you can always write (hash 'a 0 'b 1) 14:11 greghendershott: You could also define an `assoc` for association lists that works like `hash`. 14:11 greghendershott: Forgetting a dot can sometimes be a PITA but you can avoid that if you make that mistake a lot. 14:11 anonymou2: Yes, I can, but I can write #hash(['a . 0]['b . 1]) too and give a headache to many people. 14:12 anonymou2: Especially: 14:12 anonymou2: if we often _already_ have good alternatives 14:12 greghendershott: But remove the idea of `cons` seems a little drastic. Sometimes a pair is what you need. Otherwise you can wrap it in something friendlier for the purpose. 14:12 anonymou2: Racket developers* 14:12 greghendershott: So use `hash`. 14:12 anonymou2: why don't they deprecate . ? 14:13 greghendershott: why don't you just not use it? :) 14:14 (quit) soegaard: Quit: soegaard 14:15 anonymou2: "Sometimes a pair is what you need." Is it impossible to use(maybe make?) a better alternative? " why don't you just not use it?" I don't know yet is it possible and good style etc. 14:15 anonymou2: I am just reading the guide... 14:17 greghendershott: I've found that as I've gotten more comfortable with Racket that I'm able to write code that's clearer, less error prone, and more concise for whatever the problem at hand is. 14:17 greghendershott: In addition to the usual ways like defining functions, you have other options in Racket. 14:17 greghendershott: You can write macros. 14:17 greghendershott: You can even make your own #lang or "DSL" for the task at hand. 14:18 greghendershott: At that point some of the low-level plumbing details like . won't seem as big a deal, you might find. I realize it can be confusing at first. 14:19 (quit) bitonic: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 14:20 anonymou2: ...and also it is very interesting why it has npot been deprecated if many people dislike it so much. I am going to continue to study Racket anyway. What are you comparing Racket with? Is Cryovat a newbie? 14:20 greghendershott: As for "style" per se have you seen Matthias' guide? 14:20 greghendershott: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/Style/style/index.html 14:21 anonymou2: No, I haven't. Thank you. 14:21 greghendershott: I guess those are "rules" only for the folks contributing to Racket's code itself. You're not legally required to follow them. :) But some good guidelines there, I think. 14:24 Cryovat: Yeah, I'm a newbie 14:26 (join) MayDaniel 14:29 dyoo: #hash and (hash …) are semantically different. There's a reason why both are there. One is a constant literal, present in the bytecode as a constant. The other is a runtime function call that constructs a hash value. They _mean_ different things. 14:30 dyoo: Asking to eliminate one of them in favor of the other means we lose the ability to express something. That needs to be done judiciously, not hastily. 14:36 dyoo: Just to continue on this: the dotted pair notation lets us express cons pair literals so that they're constructed at program-loading time rather than at evaluation time. Asking people to eliminate the notation without providing an alternative syntax for preserving the meaning is a hard sell. You'd either need #1 to convince people that there's no need to express that meaning, or #2 find an alternative to let people express it. I don't think 14:36 dyoo: arguing #1 is going to be very easy. A more fruitful approach might be to try #2. 14:37 (quit) rmathews: Quit: ... 14:41 (quit) eikonos: Quit: Leaving. 14:43 (join) rbarraud__ 14:44 (quit) stchang: Remote host closed the connection 14:47 (join) stchang 14:49 (join) eikonos 14:49 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 14:49 (join) eikonos 14:56 anonymou2: Thanks! 14:58 greghendershott: dyoo: You're right. Also I messed up my example. The equivalent of (hash 'a 0) is #hash([a . 0]). Not #hash(['a . 0]), which would make the key be ''a not 'a. 14:58 greghendershott: Because #hasheq( ) really ends up as '#hasheq( ). 14:59 greghendershott: I guess that goes to the point re the "Calculating" post you linked to. Quoting can be confusing. 14:59 dyoo: greghendershott: yeah. The literal vs. runtime thing is definitely not beginner friendly, admittedly. 14:59 dyoo: Even in C, there's confusion. C string literals vs character arrays. They're semantically different, but I've seen teachers not know the difference. 15:00 (quit) gridaphobe: Remote host closed the connection 15:00 (join) gridaphobe 15:01 dyoo: I remember being frustrated back then, when learning C. "Why the heck are there two ways to say the same thing?" Took me a _very_ long time till I got disabused of that confusion. 15:04 greghendershott: Well also not-so-beginner friendly, if I still make dumb mistakes like I did above. :) If I stick to list, hash, etc. I tend to type what I mean on the first attempt. 15:04 greghendershott: Does that mean I sometimes miss the chance to use a literal when I could? Yes. 15:04 greghendershott: Does that really matter for performance? I'm not so sure. 15:04 (quit) gridaphobe: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 15:05 dyoo: greghendershott: unclear. At the very least, the immutability vs mutability thing might matter. 15:05 dyoo: rudybot: (immutable? #hash()) 15:05 rudybot: dyoo: your sandbox is ready 15:05 rudybot: dyoo: ; Value: #t 15:05 dyoo: rudybot: (immutable? (hash)) 15:05 rudybot: dyoo: ; Value: #t 15:05 dyoo: rudybot: (immutable? (make-hash '())) 15:05 rudybot: dyoo: ; Value: #f 15:05 greghendershott: You mean make-hash ? 15:06 dyoo: yeah, whoops. :) 15:08 greghendershott: Yeah so I guess I worked out that list hash et al were less error-prone for me, and I like seeing symbols explicitly quoted one by one and font-locked as such. 15:08 greghendershott: And I'd optimize them back to literals if/as/when I actually needed to. 15:10 greghendershott: Just my heuristic/habit. 15:10 greghendershott: ^ i.e. programming neurosis 15:10 dyoo: changing topic. I wish the bug list were curated to help folks who want to volunteer pick out the "low hanging" fruit. 15:11 greghendershott: Oh a productive topic. OK. :) 15:11 asumu: dyoo: that would be nice. Maybe we should just manually curate on the wiki. 15:11 greghendershott: That would be cool. 15:11 bremner: some kind of tagging system might help 15:11 greghendershott: Same spirit as the small-projects wiki, but db driven. 15:12 asumu: Since until the bug system moves to github, improvements to the existing thing are kinda moot. 15:12 dyoo: I've been just doing a "Query all", followed by eyeballing to see what things look easy. Usually I get it wrong, and it takes a while. :) 15:13 (quit) didi`: Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs) 15:13 greghendershott: dyoo: Yeah sometimes by the time you've figured out it's easy, the temptation to just finish the fix is high. 15:15 greghendershott: Well some issues could get a GitHub "Easy" issue tag at a quick glance, initially, and if someone takes it on and discovers otherwise, could just untag it. 15:16 (quit) tcsc: Quit: computer sleeping 15:17 dyoo: making the wiki page now... 15:17 bremner: if people use the bug log well, then you don't need to depend on tagging 15:18 dyoo: I'll put it in https://github.com/plt/racket/wiki/Easy-bugs-to-fix 15:19 dyoo: Now the hard work: culling the actual bug list. :) 15:20 (quit) Kaylin: Read error: Connection reset by peer 15:24 (join) tcsc 15:25 stamourv: dyoo: You can probably start with documentation bugs. 15:34 dyoo: ok. Good grief, this takes more time than I expected. I'll add entries for a few, but then I have to get back to wescheme for a time. 15:35 (quit) CoverSlide: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 15:35 (join) ryan_c 15:36 stamourv: Sounds like a job for the bug czar, though. ;) 15:36 dyoo: Who's the bug czar? 15:37 stamourv: samth 15:37 samth: dyoo: yeah, me 15:38 samth: dyoo: there are no easy ways to use the current system 15:43 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 260 seconds 15:44 greghendershott: For doc bugs I've wondered if it would be more efficient to have comments and/or a "report bug" button on each docs.racket-lang.org web page. 15:44 greghendershott: Reporting doc bugs tends to be low S:N ratio. 15:44 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 248 seconds 15:45 greghendershott: jQuery has comments. You get some garbage, but you also get some useful comments until the page gets updated. Not sure if that's good fit for Racket. Just an example. 15:47 asumu: If it's anything like the PHP docs, I would think the comments just accumulate outdated cruft. 15:47 asumu: But certainly our current system is pretty static... 15:48 (quit) anonymou2: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 15:48 samth: dyoo: why do all your bug emails have a strange line with lots of url-encoded characters? 15:49 dyoo: samth: Not sure. I press the "send email to interested parties" link on the bug tracker, and that's what shows up. Apologies; I thought it was some sort of magic metadata 15:49 dyoo: that the bug tracker depended on, so I never touched it. 15:49 samth: dyoo: no, it's just junk 15:50 samth: so you can delete it 15:50 samth: the bug tracker just uses the subject 15:50 (join) bitonic 15:52 (quit) tcsc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 15:57 samth: dyoo: do you not have rights to close bugs? 15:57 samth: you should 15:58 dyoo: No: I tried last time, and then the bug tracker completely rejected me. I mentioned this earlier. 15:59 dyoo: I end up having to clear my cookies to be able to even be able to query the database after login attempt. The bug tracker is pretty punishing. 16:04 samth: dyoo: by rejected you, you mean that it said your password didn't work? 16:04 samth: can you login at internal.racket-lang.org? 16:05 asumu: I used to have an issue logging into bugs, but I've always been able to login to internal. 16:05 asumu: I think there's a separate permission. 16:05 dyoo: I can log into internal fine. But if I try logging into bugs.racket-lang.org, I end up in this limbo state where I'm effectively "deauthorized" from seeing anything. 16:06 dyoo: so I always end up having to be this crazy anonymous stalker while browsing bugs.racket-lang.org. 16:06 (join) tcsc 16:06 dyoo: It's a bit disconcerting. 16:09 (quit) dyoo: Quit: dyoo 16:20 (quit) cdidd: Read error: Connection reset by peer 16:24 (join) jonrafkind 16:24 (quit) jonrafkind: Changing host 16:24 (join) jonrafkind 16:27 (quit) bitonic: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 16:31 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 244 seconds 16:35 (join) bitonic 16:43 (join) anonymou2 16:44 (quit) anonymou2: Client Quit 16:44 (join) anonymous 16:44 (nick) anonymous -> Guest44257 16:49 (quit) tcsc: Quit: computer sleeping 16:56 (join) jonrafkind 17:08 (quit) bitonic: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 17:15 (join) bitonic 17:32 (join) anRch 17:32 (quit) bitonic: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 17:46 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer 17:49 (quit) eikonos: Quit: Leaving. 17:51 (join) tcsc 17:55 (join) dauterive 18:08 (join) soegaard 18:19 (join) eikonos 18:19 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 18:19 (join) eikonos 18:30 (join) gridaphobe 18:33 (quit) ryan_c: Quit: Ex-Chat 18:38 tcsc: racket uses 32 bit characters in its strings internally, right? 18:39 samth: tcsc: yes 18:41 (quit) francisl: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 18:41 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 18:41 soegaard: If you need 8-bit strings, use bytestring. 18:43 tcsc: is the reason they're 32 bit so that indexing is constant time? 18:43 samth: tcsc: i believe so 18:43 tcsc: or is there something in some specification that required it when racket was a scheme implementation 18:44 samth: tcsc: that, basically 18:44 samth: (ie, that string-ref is constant time) 18:45 tcsc: do you know if people ever complain about the higher memory usage (compared to utf8 or utf16)? 18:46 tcsc: or is it basically a non-issue 18:47 tcsc: (i ask because I'm implementing a toy virtual machine, and I'm debating the encoding to use, not to try to start an argument about memory usage or anything like that) 18:48 soegaard: Apropos strings. I miss string->mutable-string The opposite string->immutabe-string is in racket/base 18:48 soegaard: All I know is that unicode is tricky. Make it correct (and simple) first, then improve. 18:49 soegaard: Here is how Larceny represents strings: https://trac.ccs.neu.edu/trac/larceny/wiki/StringRepresentations 18:50 tcsc: I'm actually familiar with encoding and decoding unicode, I'm just wondering about if in practice anybody ever runs into trouble with the higher memory usage of utf32 18:51 (join) jeapostrophe 18:51 (quit) jeapostrophe: Changing host 18:51 (join) jeapostrophe 18:52 soegaard: Hard to say. I can't remember seeing an easy way of getting statistics on how memory is used for different datatypes. 18:52 samth: soegaard: (define (string->mutable s) (apply string (string->list s))) 18:52 samth: soegaard: (dump-memory-stats) 18:52 samth: tcsc: i'd use utf8 18:52 tcsc: oh? 18:53 samth: constant-time string-ref is not a useful-enough feature 18:53 (join) bitonic 18:53 tcsc: hm, utf8 is fairly common now, and avoids endianness entirely 18:54 soegaard: Where is the stats from (dump-memory-stats) supposed to show up? 18:54 tcsc: which isn't an internal issue per se, but it's an issue during reading and writing... 18:54 soegaard: (tried in DrRacket with no output) 18:54 tcsc: samth: I think I'll take your advice, thanks! 18:55 asumu: Is it just me or is the #:program keyword in `command-line` not documented? 18:55 samth: soegaard: low-level standard error 18:55 soegaard: So in the terminal, where I launched DrRacket ? 18:56 samth: probably 18:57 asumu: That string rep page is neat. 18:57 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch 19:00 (quit) bitonic: Remote host closed the connection 19:01 (join) bitonic 19:01 soegaard: Hmm. I see no output in DrRacket nor the terminal. 19:03 samth: soegaard: it works for me in command-line racket 19:03 soegaard: On the command line, it works for me too. 19:03 samth: and it works in drracket -- prints to the terminal 19:05 soegaard: OS X? 19:07 tcsc: racket -e '(dump-memory-stats)' works for me on os x 19:07 tcsc: Oh, you're talking about from within drracket 19:07 soegaard: yes 19:08 soegaard: Not a big deal. Just odd. 19:09 asumu: Ah, #:program *is* documented. It just doesn't mention the keyword in prose. 19:20 (quit) ijp: Quit: The garbage collector got me 19:27 (quit) soegaard: Quit: soegaard 19:32 (join) jonrafkind 19:43 (join) Fare 19:59 (join) mizu_no_oto 20:06 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. 20:10 (join) dyoo 20:17 (quit) bitonic: Ping timeout: 256 seconds 20:19 (join) mye_ 20:19 (quit) Fare: Read error: Operation timed out 20:21 (quit) mye: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 20:21 (nick) mye_ -> mye 20:21 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 20:29 (join) rmathews 20:29 (join) didi 20:30 (quit) gridaphobe: Remote host closed the connection 20:31 (join) gridaphobe 20:34 (quit) rins: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 20:35 (quit) gridaphobe: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 20:54 (quit) dauterive: Read error: Connection reset by peer 20:55 (quit) jao: Ping timeout: 245 seconds 20:58 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 20:59 (join) mizu_no_oto 21:01 (part) netrino 21:10 (join) francisl 21:10 (join) ASau` 21:12 dyoo: eli: ping? 21:14 (join) Kaylin 21:14 (quit) ASau: Ping timeout: 272 seconds 21:24 (quit) dyoo: Quit: dyoo 21:50 (join) RacketCommitBot 21:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/jwK0ww 21:50 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 29031f0 Danny Yoo: Replace and with zero-width-space.... 21:50 (part) RacketCommitBot 21:54 offby1: Am I the only one who's seeing a buncha ^Os in those RacketCommitBot messages? 21:54 offby1: 'Cuz if so, I'll get my eyes checked. 21:55 asumu: I don't see any. I'm on irssi. 21:56 bremner: offby1: it's just you. I'm on circe. 21:56 offby1 writes a letter to Oliver Sacks 21:56 offby1: "The Man Who Mistook Control Characters for Oh The Hell With It" 22:01 friscosam: maybe it's unicode 22:02 offby1: probably just my IRC client being flaky. 22:07 (quit) Kaylin: Quit: Leaving. 22:11 (join) dyoo 22:12 (join) anonymous 22:12 dyoo: offby1: well, the commit did involve putting zero width spaces in scribble output. Maybe the irc client is offended. 22:12 (nick) anonymous -> Guest88116 22:17 (join) Kaylin 22:19 (quit) dyoo: Quit: dyoo 22:19 (join) RacketCommitBot 22:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/_Om4lQ 22:19 RacketCommitBot: racket/master db0234f Danny Yoo: Amend comment. 22:19 (part) RacketCommitBot 22:26 Guest88116: "Thus, ’(0 . (1 . 2)) becomes '(0 1 . 2), and ’(1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) becomes '(1 2 3)." 22:26 Guest88116: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/Pairs__Lists__and_Racket_Syntax.html 22:26 Guest88116: s/’/' 22:26 Guest88116: ? 22:27 didi: Déjà vu. 22:27 anonymou2: yes 22:27 anonymou2: I told it already 22:27 anonymou2: But the topic was changed 22:27 anonymou2: And we haven't complete 22:28 anonymou2: So, should we change it? 22:28 anonymou2: ? 22:29 asumu: I don't understand the question. Is there a question? 22:30 anonymous789798: There is a typo: 22:30 anonymous789798: pay attention: 22:30 anonymous789798: ’ instal of ' 22:30 anonymous789798: rudybot: ’(0 . (1 . 2)) 22:30 rudybot: anonymous789798: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 22:30 anonymous789798: instead of* 22:30 anonymous789798: So, maybe the typo should be changed? 22:31 anonymous789798: Couldn't anyone change or something 22:33 anonymous789798: it* 22:33 anonymous789798: ? 22:35 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. 22:36 (join) rins 22:37 asumu: It's not really a trivial fix actually, since it's an HTML specific rendering issue. 22:37 (join) mizu_no_oto 22:38 asumu: The PDF of the Guide shows the correct quote character. 22:38 asumu: Can you submit a bug report and note the difference? 22:39 anonymous789798: Yes. 22:43 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28 22:43 (join) mithos28 22:43 anonymous789798 is going to do it in 30 minutes 22:43 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. 22:45 (join) mizu_no_oto 22:46 (quit) rins: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 22:48 (quit) Kaylin: Quit: Leaving. 22:57 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. 23:08 (quit) eikonos: Quit: Leaving. 23:18 (join) eikonos 23:18 (quit) eikonos: Changing host 23:18 (join) eikonos 23:18 (quit) rmathews: Quit: ... 23:19 (join) Kaylin 23:23 (join) jeapostrophe 23:23 (quit) jeapostrophe: Changing host 23:23 (join) jeapostrophe 23:29 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 256 seconds 23:39 dented42: does slideshow allow for animated transitions? the paper mentions a scroll-transition function, but I can't find any mention of it in the documentation. 23:40 (quit) francisl: Ping timeout: 272 seconds 23:43 (join) anonymous 23:43 (nick) anonymous -> Guest4644 23:51 (join) rmathews 23:54 asumu: dented42: it does, it does. Let me find you an example. 23:54 asumu: s/it does// 23:54 dented42: huzzah! 23:56 asumu: dented42: for example, see http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/robby/ryr-talk.plt/1/2/fable-words.rkt which corresponds to the intro section of this talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuCRToctmw0 23:56 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b535lmo 23:57 asumu: And http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/slideshow/play.html for docs 23:57 asumu: (with simpler examples)