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03:37 lewis1711: do you guys ever have stupid ideas like - make an s-expression language that matches 1:1 with java, then implement languages in this macro to have a boiler-plate free jvm language?
03:37 lewis1711: or macro in the language, rather
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03:43 Cryovat: That would be pretty cool lewis1711
03:44 asvil: lewis1711: do you mean clojure?
03:44 Cryovat: Clojure does its own thing
03:44 lewis1711: like clojure but nice ;)
03:44 lewis1711: just idle thoughts as I do some more copy-paste-tweak in java
03:45 Cryovat: I got the impression what lewis1711 is talking about is something that turns into idiomatic Java code
03:45 lewis1711: maybe like an s-expression xtend
03:50 Cryovat: Xtend seems pretty cool
03:50 Cryovat: I like that it's "just" Java
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03:53 lewis1711: I'm netbeans 4 lyf though
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03:59 Cryovat: I bought IntelliJ on their sale
03:59 Cryovat: I quite like it so far
04:01 lewis1711: I should give it a try some time
04:02 lewis1711: personally I am not impressed with most jvm languages. scala is nice but its tools make me cry. groovys documentation is atrocious. jruby is awkward to embed. I guess that leaves clojure which I avoid for petty, petty reasons. wonder how hard it would be to create jvm bytecode for racket..
04:04 Cryovat: No idea
04:04 Cryovat: The low level stuff is scary
04:04 lewis1711: haha yeah I've had a peek..
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04:05 Cryovat: Considering that Racket has its own bytecode format, I would imagine it would be possible to translate it
04:06 lewis1711: would that be easiest? racket -> racket bytecode -> jvm bytecode?
04:06 Cryovat: No idea
04:06 lewis1711: yeah, an open question :P
04:06 Cryovat: I don't know if there is a bytecode reference anywhere
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04:08 lewis1711: they're both stackbased
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05:08 lewis1711: https://gist.github.com/4705963 golf, anyone? :)
05:14 noelw: Tail calls would be the sticking point. The pragmatic solution would be abandon them.
05:14 noelw: What don't you like about Scala's tools? (I write a lot of Scala.)
05:15 didi`: noelw: Abandoning tail calls? Nevers!1!
05:15 didi`: lewis1711: Nice.
05:15 noelw: Alternatively one can wait for Java … 9? 10? 11? which will include tail calls
05:16 lewis1711: I still think there should be an analogue to "in-range" that includes the last number.
05:16 didi`: noelw: Hum. Why do I have to wait for Java?
05:16 lewis1711: i realise how utterly trivial it is to write it ones self, but we need to make racket optimal for winning at rosetta code ;)
05:16 noelw: I was responding to the Q about compiling Racket for the JVM, which was about an hour ago
05:16 didi`: noelw: oic
05:16 noelw: so perhaps my response was lacking in context
05:16 lewis1711: noelw, fake em with stacks?
05:16 lewis1711: trampolines
05:17 noelw: All that stuff is viable, but it slows the code. To me, one of the main points of using the JVM is performance.
05:17 noelw: The other is access to lots of libraries
05:18 lewis1711: noelw, I dislike the compiler. and sbt, and scala-IDE
05:18 noelw: Fair enough. Never used the Eclipse plugin. I dislike Eclipse :)
05:18 lewis1711: itellij, or text editor?
05:18 noelw: Emacs
05:22 noelw: I mean, c'mon, It's the only editor any reasonable person would use.
05:22 didi`: b
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05:28 lewis1711: wonder what else on rosetta code I can do
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06:38 didi`: lewis1711: An overly complicated version .
06:39 lewis1711: didi`, LOL why
06:39 didi`: lewis1711: Reasons.
06:39 lewis1711: inspired by java
06:39 lewis1711: needs an abstract fizzbuzz factory
06:39 didi`: lewis1711: Also, you can extend it by only adding new proceduresto `fizzbuzz-procs'.
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08:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/3NRx9Q
08:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 042ec40 Robby Findler: adjust class/c to compute projections once, instead of once per...
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11:51 mithos28: samth: ping
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12:23 didi: When I use `scheme_make_fd_output_port' to create two ports from a file descriptor, are these ports registered with the current custodian?
12:27 jonrafkind: from looking at the source I'm pretty sure the answer is yes
12:27 jonrafkind: scheme_make_fd_output_port passes 1 as the `must_close' parameter of scheme_make_output_port
12:30 didi: jonrafkind: Nice. Thank you.
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12:31 nick__: hello everybody
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12:31 nick__: ello
12:31 nick__: ello
12:31 nick__: ello
12:31 nick__: ello
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12:31 nick__: elloe
12:31 nick__: i need q dollqr dolqlr
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12:32 asumu: That was puzzling.
12:34 jonrafkind: is there a function that returns the number of cases in a metafunction in redex?
12:34 jonrafkind: I want to set the `linebreaks' parameter but I am having to hardcode the number instead of getting it programmatically
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13:14 danl-ndi: what is the provide syntax to provide a list of ids from a module required in?
13:15 danl-ndi: like, (all-from-out ) but instead of all, just the listed ones
13:15 danl-ndi: or can I just do a (provide )?
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13:17 danl-ndi: yes I can. nice when the answer is simpler and more direct than my machinations
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13:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/LolZ-A
13:26 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 7146289 Danny Yoo: PR 13471: Add cycle-detection during lex-abbrev expansion to raise appropriate syntax error....
13:26 RacketCommitBot: racket/master ab3c69c Danny Yoo: Correct the test case so it executes the error path we want.
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13:30 dyoo: Cryovat: compiler/zo-parse documents the basic bytecode structures.
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13:34 samth: mithos28: probably best to email me -- kinda crazy today
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14:02 dyoo: errstr: ok, the bug you find in pr13471 should be fixed on HEAD now.
14:02 dyoo: gah. s/find/found
14:03 errstr: dyoo: great, thank you
14:05 soegaard: dyoo: The other day I found a Pascal program with the line write(chr(7)). I might end up adding bells after all...
14:05 dyoo: soegaard: I would like string literals, but I'm assuming you left them out as an exercise to the reader. :)
14:06 soegaard: dyoo: I caved and added strings.
14:06 dyoo: oh!
14:06 dyoo: Thanks!
14:06 soegaard: (Very) old school Pascal strings.
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14:18 stamourv: dyoo: What's the debugging story for ragg? Is it like yacc and co, where you debug in terms of the generated automaton?
14:18 dyoo: debugging story is currently poor. There is no automaton; it's written in terms of cfg-parser, whose internals I don't quite understand yet.
14:19 stamourv: Ok. I haven't tried it yet, but I was thinking about that.
14:20 stamourv: Have you hear of Menhir? It's a parser generator for OCaml, and it apparently has much nicer debugging that yacc and co.
14:20 dyoo: no, I haven't come across that one yet.
14:20 stamourv: http://gallium.inria.fr/~fpottier/menhir/
14:20 dyoo: I was hoping that when I have time, I can update cfg-parser so it uses something like https://github.com/epsil/gll, where since it acts like recursive-descent parsers, I'd assume reasoning would be easier.
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14:22 dyoo: thanks for the menhir reference; will look at it when I have time!
14:25 stamourv: I've been meaning to look into it a bit more, but haven't had an excuse.
14:26 stamourv: Also, well, it's OCaml, which I find painful to use.
14:27 dyoo: I'm trying to get back into ML programming, at least enough to read code comfortably. Going through the Compiling with Continuations book now so I can pick up lessons for Whalesong.
14:27 stamourv: That's a great book.
14:29 stamourv: Although I disagree with some of Appel's decisions. I find that Kranz's thesis provides a nice counterpoint (although they agree on most things).
14:30 dyoo: stamourv: you mean http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/orbit-thesis.pdf, right?
14:31 stamourv: dyoo: Yep, that's the one.
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15:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/aVpbng
15:09 RacketCommitBot: racket/master e656bdb Eric Dobson: Make generated contracts for Floats include NaN....
15:09 RacketCommitBot: racket/master ec04467 Vincent St-Amour: Add extra tests for contract generation and float zeroes.
15:09 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9e8cc6a Eric Dobson: Add types for imaginary numbers and fix type of exact? and inexact?.
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15:30 greghendershott: For main.rkt-like files I sometimes find myself doing `(require ) (provide )`. Is there some shortcut I'm overlooking, whereby I could specify the list just once? Something like `(require/provide )`?
15:30 jonrafkind: a quick macro would do it
15:30 greghendershott: ^ Sorry that was supposed to (provide (all-from-out ))
15:30 jonrafkind: (require x) (provide (all-from-out x))
15:31 greghendershott: jonrafkind: OK. I wanted to avoid making that other module and require-ing it, esp if this were already built-in. But I can do that myself. Thanks.
15:32 jonrafkind: what other module
15:32 jonrafkind: to house the macro?
15:32 greghendershott: Yeah, that's all.
15:32 carleastlund: greghendershott, jonrafkind, A simple macro will do that, but it will expand the require-specs twice. I have one that does it just once that is currently in (planet cce/scheme) and I will soon be releasing on planet2 as well.
15:32 stamourv: greghendershott: TR has `require/typed/provide', so something like `require/provide' could be nice.
15:33 jonrafkind: carleastlund, well.. who cares if it expands the forms twice
15:33 carleastlund: jonrafkind, Anyone who does it in a case where the require specs take a long time to expand.
15:33 jonrafkind: ill be on the lookout for such a person
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15:34 carleastlund: I'm somewhat shocked to see someone with a thesis about macros, unconcerned about the performance of macros. I have all kinds of expanders that take ridiculous amounts of time without serious optimization.
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15:35 jonrafkind: ive never seen a require form take long to expand and i find it hard to imagine a case where one would (although its theoretically possible of course)
15:38 carleastlund: Well, just for example, if we start writing macros that duplicate require specs, then the expansion time spent on require specs grows exponentially in the number of layers of such macros. So if we start abstracting over require/provide, just such a thing might start happening.
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15:47 greghendershott: A good design criteria for Racket is never needing to use multiple-cursors.el. :)
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16:24 dyoo: soegaard: heads up: there's a bug in the core compression libraries that minipascal somehow tickled. Wow. See: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=13489
16:25 soegaard: Still hunting down the Planet2/DrRacket weirdness?
16:26 Cryovat: I was wondering about something
16:26 Cryovat: Since the Rubygems scandal
16:26 Cryovat: Does Planet2 have signing?
16:26 dyoo: soegaard: I'm waiting, but yeah, I think so:
16:26 dyoo: https://github.com/dyoo/racket/tree/compiler-hack
16:27 dyoo: that should settle down the obvious breakage when installing planet2 packages in DrRacket.
16:27 dyoo: Waiting to hear concensus from other devs before merging upstream.
16:28 soegaard: okay
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16:36 dyoo: Cryovat: unsure. Packages on github use https though if I'm reading the code right. https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/planet2/lib.rkt#L437
16:37 Cryovat: Ah
16:37 Cryovat: So security is effectively outsourced to Github?
16:40 dyoo: Cryovat: I'm the wrong person to ask about security. But shouldn't the checksums that are being held independently of github address this? If I understand correctly, pkg.racket-lang.org holds the checksums, and if they don't match what we get when we actually download the package, it stops the install.
16:40 soegaard: That's my understanding too.
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16:43 ryan_c: Cryovat, I'm not sure you can even say that, because AFAICT, planet2 does not verify that it's actually talking to github.
16:43 didi: dyoo: IIUC, there is still the question of who posted the files.
16:43 Cryovat: ryan_c: Ah, I see :\
16:44 asumu: ryan_c: you should hang out on IRC more. :p
16:45 asumu: ryan_c: also, there was something I was going to ask you but now I forgot... oh right. As the doc tzar, do you have an opinion about whether chapter 1 in the guide should contain a section on 'require'?
16:45 ryan_c: I do when I remember to, and when I'm feeling interruptible :)
16:46 asumu: Cryovat: what was the rubygems scandal in a nutshell?
16:46 dyoo: Cryovat: I do see that the PyPI folks from Python are also grappling with this.
16:46 dyoo: asumu: I believe this? http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/17rfh7/warning_dont_use_pip_in_an_untrusted_network_a/
16:46 rudybot_: http://tinyurl.com/cmp8qrj
16:46 Cryovat: asumu: Rails had a vulnerability that allowed arbitrary code execution through YAML in http requests
16:47 asumu: Ah, I did hear about the YAML thing.
16:47 Cryovat: It was used to inject code into the Rubygems site that posted their credentials to Pastebin
16:47 asumu: I didn't realize that had to do with gems.
16:47 ryan_c: asumu, As doc czar, I have no opinion. As myself, I don't see why it should.
16:47 asumu: ryan_c: it seems like an intro to Racket should encourage 'require' over 'load' or 'enter!' before giving a weird idea.
16:47 Cryovat: Since they didn't have any package signing scheme, they got caught in a situation where they had no idea if the packages on the site were compromised
16:47 asumu: Or rather, to avoid giving the wrong idea.
16:50 Cryovat: The only thing they could do was take the whole site offline and compare the files to backups
16:51 Cryovat: Since Rubygems doesn't have a signing scheme, anyone who downloaded a dependency from the site could have downloaded one with malicious code in it
16:52 ryan_c: asumu, I read that as "here's a minimal explanation for those who prefer the command line so they can follow along". But I haven't read through the guide lately, so I'm not sure how effective it is.
16:53 ryan_c: Still, I think "minimal" is the right choice for chapter 1.
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17:50 mye: how annoying that make-servlet-tester only returns the representation!
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18:32 samth: Cryovat: currently, there's no signing in place for planet2
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18:33 samth: Cryovat: fortunately, we're usually clearer about what executes arbitrary code
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18:47 greghendershott: Cyrovat: asumu: A detailed article I read a few days ago about injecting YAML via the XML parser http://www.insinuator.net/2013/01/rails-yaml/
18:48 neilv: Cryovat: it's pretty similar to most any platform's code, security-wise
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18:50 neilv: Cryovat: for consulting clients that care about such things, i have had to pull things out of planet, so that they have more confidence in what code is being pulled on production servers
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18:51 neilv: Cryovat: i was planning to fix this, but planet2 has disrupted plans, and i don't have time for switching to planet2 right now
18:59 Cryovat: Ah, I see
18:59 Cryovat: I'm glad you've been thinking about it :)
19:02 neilv: i wouldn't be too concerned. if you're working on mission-critical systems, you'll probably want to clone in the planet packages you use, and distribute the software to your servers from your copy
19:02 neilv: i also disable planet access from the scripts that run the production servers, just in case someone snuck in a change that refers directly to planet
19:04 neilv: there is at least one change needed to planet2, to do a thing that would make this a lot easier, but i probably need to work through it myself, rather than someone else trying to interpret what i mean from vague utterances
19:05 neilv: plus there's a second, more research-y, mechanism i have in mind, but that needs funding
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19:20 greghendershott: neilv: Maybe a workflow based on forking could help for change-averse scenarios?
19:20 greghendershott: Instead of installing the package from the author's GitHub repo, I fork it, and point the pkg mgr at my fork.
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19:20 greghendershott: Thereafter I can install presuming I trust GitHub integrity.
19:21 greghendershott: If/as/when I want a newer version, I do so via the usual git means, updating my fork.
19:21 greghendershott: Something like that. Just thinking out loud.
19:22 greghendershott: tl;dr my forks are the trusted cache
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21:39 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/9HgRUQ
21:39 RacketCommitBot: racket/master f749ab1 Robby Findler: minor cleanup
21:39 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 2b7c6e3 Robby Findler: adjust raco test so it test the command-line...
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21:41 didi: I'm using FFI to create a C struct but I'm not able to do it because apparently I don't know how to create a char array. How can I do it?
21:44 asumu: didi: does _bytes work?
21:45 didi: asumu: Isn't _bytes a type>?
21:46 asumu: Oh, I thought you wanted to revise the type side of that.
21:47 asumu: You might be able to use _array/list and _array/vector to use those respectively on the Racket side.
21:47 didi: asumu: Thank you.
21:49 didi: asumu: But `_array/list' and `_array/vector' also return types, don't they?
21:49 didi is confused
21:51 asumu: Oh, I meant if you changed your struct definition to use those, you could pass in a list or a vector.
21:51 didi: oic
21:51 didi: Nice.
21:51 asumu: (and it'd be pretty much the same type still)
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