00:03 lewis1711: rudybot: (define op +)
00:03 rudybot: lewis1711: your sandbox is ready
00:03 rudybot: lewis1711: Done.
00:03 lewis1711: how do I get '+ from op?
00:07 offby1: lewis1711: I don't think you can.
00:07 offby1: you're asking "given a value, how can I get the identifier(s) to which it's bound?"
00:08 offby1: I think identifiers are gone at runtime.
00:09 lewis1711: yeah, just realised I need one of those slightly unhygienic macro things
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00:12 lewis1711: https://gist.github.com/4700616 I think there's a way to avoid this sort of copy paste but it's complex
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00:20 neilv: (define-foo s* *)
00:21 lewis1711: neilv, I do not follow
00:22 neilv: can't you define a macro, "define-foo", that does what you need, with those arguments?
00:26 lewis1711: a hygienic one?
00:26 neilv: yes
00:26 lewis1711: no. I tried but I still don't know how to deal with the quoting thing
00:27 neilv: you could also leave the "define" part out of it, and just produce a "lambda" by the macro
00:27 neilv: (quote MY-PATTERN-VARIABLE)
00:28 lewis1711: oh. yeah. maybe I can. let's see
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00:33 lewis1711: that works
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01:55 asumu: rudybot: (object-name +)
01:55 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: +
01:55 asumu: rudybot: (object-name (let ([x +]) x))
01:55 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: +
01:56 asumu: lewis1711: ^ though it won't always do what you want reliably.
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04:33 lewis1711: asumu, thanks, but I guess macros are a much better soln in this case
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05:29 htop: hi folks, I have two question and i havent found anything in the documentation: is there tab completion for the "racket" program?
05:29 htop: is it possible to draw a line between points ( I am doing sth like that (plot (points (map vector xs ys)...) and i want to connect the points with a line.
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05:44 soegaard: htop: Tab completion:   ctrl + .
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06:21 bremner: htop: use "lines" instead pf "points"
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06:30 rich_: i'm trying to understand the simple web server example from the racket-lang.org website
06:31 rich_: i don't understand why the (html ...) is quoted
06:31 rich_: i've looked up html, body and quote in the racket manual - but still don't really get it
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06:39 RiskyBlit: rich_, it is a so-called X-expression
06:40 RiskyBlit: rich_, have you read section 4 of http://docs.racket-lang.org/continue/index.html ?
06:40 RiskyBlit: it is explained there
06:42 RiskyBlit: it needs to be quoted to prevent function application; the whole form tree starting from (html ...) is data, not code
06:42 rich_: RiskyBlit: thanks. i couldn't understand if i remove the quote why it would fail on my end, yet on the racket end it could "unquote" it somehow
06:43 RiskyBlit: I'm not sure I understand your problem, but maybe you need to read about quoting: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/Pairs__Lists__and_Racket_Syntax.html#%28part._quoting-lists%29
06:43 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/at4bw4h
06:43 rich_: so it's a bit like the mathematica symbolic C stuff, and then you call ToCCodeString on your expression to generate the actual C code
06:45 rich_: http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/SymbolicC/ref/ToCCodeString.html
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07:10 rich_: does anybody use the insert fraction functionality in DrRacket ?
07:11 rich_: i think it's good, i just tried (display (* 9 1/9)) and gives me 1
07:11 soegaard: The intended use is for teaching.
07:12 rich_: it does make it more readable - in regards to teaching though is doing the same for exponents on the cards for DrRacket?
07:12 soegaard: Apropos X-expressions, I like the XML-boxes, where you can write normal (x)html. They evaluate to X-expression, which mean that they are easy to use with the web-server.
07:13 soegaard: Exponents on cards?  I am not following.
07:14 rich_: sorry. is making exponents appear in a friendly way, like fractions already are, going to appear in DrRacket soon?
07:14 rich_: :) i just tried the XML box
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07:16 rich_: although "<p>my text</p>" produces '(p () "my text") but the example on the homepage only requires (p "my text")
07:16 soegaard: I don't know of any plans. But at some I'd like to implement a more general "insert math expression" for one of my side projects.
07:17 soegaard: <p foo='bar'>baz</p> becomes (p (foo "bar") baz)
07:18 soegaard: So (p () "bar") and (p "bar") both represent "<p>bar</p>"
07:18 rich_: ah makes sense now, thanks
07:19 rich_: i'm seeing how some of my mathematica code looks in DrRacket
07:20 soegaard: Don't forget to check out the brand new math library.
07:20 rich_: mathematica wins for traditional form (Fractions, exponents etc) but DrRacket wins for full form (lisp uses *, mathematica uses Times)
07:20 rich_: yeh i just did (require math/number-theory) to test (prime?)
07:21 soegaard: If you find anything odd, let me know.
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07:22 rich_: all the results match up so far, although DrRacket is bit slower and cpu intensive than mathematica
07:22 soegaard: Correctness first :-)
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07:23 rich_: oh absolutely! i'm really impressed with DrRacket GUI and language so far
07:25 rich_: as a concept is it possible for DrRacket to have pi be abstract instead of an approximation like mathematica ?
07:26 soegaard: It depends on what you want to do with pi.
07:26 soegaard: If you want to compute with arbitrary precision, then you can use bigfloats.
07:27 soegaard: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/math/bigfloat.html?q=prime#(def._((lib._math/bigfloat..rkt)._pi..bf))
07:27 soegaard: If you want symbolic computations, such as (sin pi) = 0, then you are currently out of luck.
07:28 soegaard: But I am working on it: https://github.com/soegaard/bracket
07:32 rich_: :)
07:34 soegaard: Do you know SICP? It has a nice example on symbolic computations.
07:34 soegaard: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/sicp/book/node49.html
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07:40 rich_: never heard of it - it's humbling though all the clever people figure these things out so we can use them from a higher level
07:41 rich_: like i've just computed whether a number is prime or not with over 1000 digits on an old laptop
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07:44 soegaard: If you like both math and Scheme, then SICP is quite enjoyable.
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08:07 rich_: is DrRacket planning to implement the curly infix. e.g. { 5 + 6 }
08:08 rich_: i found http://readable.sf.net/
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08:15 soegaard: There is no need to put it into the core language. With #lang you can change the syntax if you need it.
08:16 soegaard: For infix expressions, there is also:
08:16 soegaard: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/soegaard/infix.plt/1/0/planet-docs/manual/index.html
08:16 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ayaden4
08:17 soegaard: Heavily inspired by Mathematica syntax.
08:21 rich_: wow
08:22 rich_: do you know mathematica as well ?
08:23 soegaard: Some.
08:26 rich_: how wel do hold/release match to quoting/unquoting?
08:28 soegaard: In Racket function calls always pass arguments by value.
08:28 soegaard: The Hold in Mathematica, sort of passes the expression instead.
08:29 soegaard: If you use (syntax …) (abreviated with #' ) then you can pass an expression to a function.
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08:29 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9c3afd4 Robby Findler: fix find-seconds error reporting to say "find-seconds" instead...
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08:29 soegaard: But there us no builtin support for Hold/Release as there is in Mathematica.
08:31 soegaard: In some way Hold/Release only makes sense if all computations are done on expressions rather than values.
08:31 soegaard: I've got support for Hold in Bracket though.
08:32 rich_: e.g. Hold[5*7] /. {Times -> Divide} will return Hold[5/7] - so with the #' shortcut it could be possible to change / with * in the expression?
08:33 rich_: i mean change from * to / - to match the mathematica example
08:33 soegaard: The equivalent in Racket would be to write Hold[5*7] as  #'(* 5 7).
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08:34 rich_: then would something like (list / (rest THE-PARAM)) simulate the replace ?
08:34 soegaard: The implement /. as a function called, replace,  that takes a syntax object as input, and then let it replace the * with a /.
08:35 soegaard: You would need to a some pattern matching.
08:36 rich_: in the general sense yeh
08:41 rich_: assuming my maths is correct (i'm nowhere near an expert :)) my DrRacket code takes approx 40 seconds with 100% cpu usage, and the mathematica code is pretty much instant with a 50% cpu spike
08:42 rich_: i'm still happy with the result - and like you say correctness 1st
08:42 rich_: ooo brb
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08:45 soegaard: rich_:  See https://gist.github.com/4701839 for an example
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09:37 rich_: soegaard: thanks
09:39 rich_: is the convention to use [] for cond then ? after seeing your example i did a quick search, http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/reader.html?q=[&q=cond&q=time&q=time&q=string-length&q=length&q=integer&q=digits&q=map&q=filter&q=prime%3F&q=primeq#%28idx._%28gentag._23._%28lib._scribblings%2Freference%2Freference..scrbl%29%29%29
09:40 rich_: i think it basically says [] is equivalent to ()
09:41 bremner: yes, it's just a convention.
09:41 bremner: I use it as a comment that the thing in [] is not a function call; other people do other things I guess.
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09:44 rich_: bremner: makes sense
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09:56 rich_: with regards to soegaard's replace example - how would you execute the result - would that be eval? people warn of eval in other languages
09:56 rich_: the equivalent in mathematica for the original example would be Release
09:59 bremner: I guess either eval, or write your own recursive evaluator; if you just want arithmetic, it isn't hard.
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10:09 rich_: i'm just playing at the moment - am i right in thinking it would be possible in DrRacket to write a procedure that can rewrite (first (map F LIST)) to (F (first LIST)) and evalute it
10:15 bremner: rich_: I guess you could do that with 'match'
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10:25 RacketCommitBot: racket/master af61f1b Robby Findler: change the default test coverage colors...
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10:26 rich_: my 1st attempt at rewriting map/first http://paste.opensuse.org/15325660
10:27 rich_: bremner: oh that might help
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12:23 RacketCommitBot: racket/master ab55d43 Robby Findler: give up on the "find the close paren strategy that doesn't...
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13:25 soegaard: Interesting project:  https://github.com/samsergey/formica
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13:29 soegaard: It even has a rewrite-all aka /. that rich_ is interested in.
13:31 soegaard: See https://github.com/samsergey/formica/blob/master/tests/rewrite-tests.rkt for examples of /.
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13:49 asumu: Oh neat, hadn't seen that.
13:50 asumu: I don't see their doc pdf though.
13:50 soegaard: The book is in russian.
13:51 bremner: and english, I think
13:51 asumu is building it with scribble now
13:51 soegaard: The reference guide is in english.
13:51 soegaard: I think the book is a textbook on functional languages.
13:52 bremner: oh. It likes like there is some overlap/re-implementation of TR?
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13:58 asumu: I like how it uses circle for composition.
13:59 soegaard: Yeah.
14:00 bremner: hah, the famous (+ n x) form. I remember wars laying waste to #haskell on that one ;)
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14:03 asumu: Oh, that's cute. Does #haskell hate it?
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14:04 rich_: soegaard: (that project sounds really in interesting from the readme)
14:04 bremner: asumu: yeah, I think so, but I forget why
14:05 asumu: rich_: were you the one asking about SRFI-105 earlier? I have a port of sweet expressions that works: https://github.com/takikawa/sweet-racket
14:05 asumu: It's not SRFI-105, but it's close since it's the predecessor.
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14:07 rich_: asumu: yeh - i'm in over my head with this lisp and drracket stuff but what i seen so far is great - too much stuff to learn :)
14:08 rich_: drracket even works on suse
14:10 asumu: Yeah, I keep learning new things too. Also I just noticed today that DrRacket has a new green highlight thing in Check Syntax mode that looks pretty good.
14:10 rich_: how do you enable that mode?
14:12 asumu: There's a "check syntax" button on the toolbar.
14:13 asumu: (also in recent versions, check syntax runs automatically... though it doesn't do all the fancy coloring in real time)
14:13 rich_: ah - now i see it if i maximise the window
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14:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/9zHrYg
14:15 RacketCommitBot: racket/master efb3bf0 Robby Findler: Spelling error...
14:15 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9fd4698 Robby Findler: adjust raco test so that it accepts multiple -s arguments on the command-line...
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14:28 soegaard: I like the rewriting module.
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15:42 soegaard: Project idea:  Fix syntax highligthing for Racket programs on StackOverflow.   They use Google Code Prettify. https://code.google.com/p/google-code-prettify/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2Fsrc
15:42 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/apmrovx
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15:50 soegaard: Maybe using Greg's code for pygment as an inspiration: https://bitbucket.org/birkenfeld/pygments-main/pull-request/94/add-lexer-for-racket-language/diff
15:50 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b28z65p
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16:32 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 44e91ea Robby Findler: change printouts from raco test to be slightly more informative
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17:40 dyoo: lewis1711: if you see these logs: the object-name function may do what you're looking for.
17:40 dyoo: rudybot: (let ([x +]) (object-name x))
17:40 rudybot: dyoo: your sandbox is ready
17:40 rudybot: dyoo: ; Value: +
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17:55 youlysses: Is there any good reason to use DrRacket over Emacs and related tools?
17:57 dyoo: youlysses: DrRacket is a simpler environment.  Quite a lot of work goes into integration with other parts of Racket infrastructure.
17:58 dyoo: youlysses: for example, image values show up on the repl as image values automatically.
17:58 dyoo: As a environment for starting off, I think it's fine.
17:58 jonrafkind: check syntax in the background might be a good reason
17:59 Cryovat: And if you don't know Emacs, DrRacket will act like the text editor you're used to
17:59 Cryovat: DrRacket also likes to draw red arrows all over the place if your program crashes
17:59 Cryovat: That can be pretty useful ;)
18:00 asumu just has DrRacket act like the text editor he's used to... vim
18:00 Cryovat: Really?
18:00 Cryovat: I had you pegged as an Emacs-person
18:01 asumu: I use vim in emacs.
18:01 dyoo: youlysses: so yeah, DrRacket has a place.  But you can always use Emacs too, or other tools.  You've already seen: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/other-editors.html, right?
18:01 Cryovat: Vim as a vim emulation mode, or actual vim running in a console inside Emacs?
18:02 youlysses: dyoo: I have now.... :-) I was intending to use geiser, which I'm glad to see is listed on recommended modes.
18:03 asumu: Cryovat: an emulation mode. I use evil-mode, which emulates vim well enough that I usually can't tell.
18:03 asumu: BTW, looking at http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/intro.html I'm surprised that it doesn't mention "require" anywhere on the page.
18:03 Cryovat: Where is the benefit in emulating vim inside Emacs instead of using plain vim?
18:04 asumu: Cryovat: IMO, emacs has better buffer management and other plugins. Also paredit.
18:04 dyoo: asumu: it sounds like a mention of require should be near the end, right after the sentence on the recommendation against load.
18:04 Cryovat: That makes sense
18:05 asumu: dyoo: agreed, and I wonder about introducing enter! before require too.
18:06 dyoo: I get the feeling it's just because of the reloading behavior that enter! is supposed to have.
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18:06 dyoo: and that if it used require, things would be complicated once the file changes.
18:07 asumu: That's true, especially if you forget to provide them.
18:07 dyoo: by the way, I am completely confused about the compilation manager and drracket.
18:08 (quit) groovy2shoes: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep
18:09 dyoo: just reading http://docs.racket-lang.org/raco/make.html#%28mod-path._compiler%2Fcm%29 is making me dizzy.  There's no explanation why the first value of (use-complied-file-paths) is privileged above all other values.
18:09 asumu: That's... a scary API.
18:10 dyoo: I'm trying to figure out why the heck PLanet2 packages get recompiled in DrRacket debugging mode when you require them, and I've traced it down to this weird, documented behavior in compiler/cm.  But I have no idea whatsover why it does it this way… :(
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18:40 dyoo: …. ah… darn it, found it.
18:41 dyoo: ok, the reason why DrRacket is compiling planet2 packages in drracket mode needlessly, and why it doesn't do that for collects, is because there's a piece of the compilation manager that holds directories that are blacklisted from compilation.
18:41 dyoo: manager-skip-file-handler.
18:42 dyoo: And DrRacket labels (find-collects-cir) as untouchable.  But it should also mark the packages directory of planet2 packages similarly.  Nuts, that was hairy.
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