00:06 grettke: Question. I want to read the contents of a file into a Scribble interaction environment. I am loading the file into a string, and need to convert that to a syntax-object. When I pass it to read-syntax, it never returns. Do I need to add eof to that string?
00:12 carleastlund_: grettke, I can't think of why read-syntax would fail to return.  Reading from a string certainly shouldn't do it, if you open-input-string it should EOF appropriately.
00:13 grettke: carleastlund_: oh ok, I'm probably doing something else wrong
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00:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/u-GOJA
00:45 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 83766e1 Asumu Takikawa: Doc fix...
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01:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/eS5_PA
01:17 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 79b9acd Eli Barzilay: 2012 -> 2013
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01:59 eli: bremner: ping
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03:14 jonrafkind: hm scribble doesnt like to produce section numbers when there are more than 3 numbers in it
03:14 jonrafkind: seems to be hard coded in latex-render.rkt.. (> number 3)
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04:21 tim-brown: did i just see my racket install process building some realm of racket stuff? is that the book on my PC?
04:31 jonrafkind: yea
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04:41 Haffe: So Realm of Racket is finished?
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04:42 MightyFoo thinks somethings a bit squiffy with IRC
04:42 Haffe: Is it possible to get an advance copy?
04:42 MightyFoo: i'm not seeing it in my "Racket Documentation" funot page
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04:42 Haffe: The course I used to teach in RACKET is still running and they are using SICP at the momemt.
04:43 MightyFoo: s/funot/front
04:44 MightyFoo: i *swear* i saw raco install something realm-of-rackety
04:47 MightyFoo: ah... lib/racket/collects/realm/ contains the "source code for the games from Realm of Racket"
04:47 MightyFoo: not the book itself
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04:52 MightyFoo: Haffe: Amazon says: "Available for pre-order. This item will be released on 31 May 2013." -- not that they are necessarily the best source of academic books
04:52 Sgeo_: Is Realm of Racket going to be free?
05:07 MightyFoo: Again... amazon's saying £30.99-- dunno what that is in colonial money
05:11 Sgeo_: Oh darn >.>
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05:33 tim-brown: is the cover art for RoR done? maybe it could be posted as an "image" for the book on amazon? dunno how these things work
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08:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/7jZleA
08:31 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9d4e47a Jay McCarthy: Update URLs again to r-l.o domain
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08:34 wuttf: does typed racket has HM type inference?
08:34 wuttf: have*
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08:53 carleastlund: wuttf, No, Typed Racket is based on a different type system than Hindley-Milner.
08:54 wuttf: carleastlund: Ty.
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10:13 Sgeo_: Why does the web server use some weird bindings object when it looks like it's just a hash-map?
10:15 tim-brown: has anyone else noticed the "interesting" syntax highlighting in DrRacket recently?
10:15 asumu: tim-brown: no, what's this?
10:16 tim-brown: in windows (experienced over the weekend) and linux (clean build from today), the highlighter utterly loses the plot
10:17 tim-brown: it starts to go wrong with parenthesis colouring
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10:17 tim-brown: and then, as i make, er... mistakes causing error highlighting, i end up with a bloody red (i mean pink) mess
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10:18 asumu: tim-brown: do you have an example I could just paste into my DrRacket and get weird highlighting? Or is it random?
10:19 tim-brown: hmmm... for now, can i say download and build a nightly; and hack about a bit
10:19 tim-brown: i'll give you something reproducable in a mo
10:21 tim-brown: asumu: I've just run up drracket, typed "(require rackunit)" and it's highlighted that line -- yellow in my case
10:22 tim-brown: it remains highlighted
10:22 asumu: Oh huh, that's weird. I don't see that, but my DrRacket settings are probably different.
10:23 asumu: Sounds like a bug though.
10:23 tim-brown: i then write a script like: http://pastebin.com/fTpzXDrF
10:24 tim-brown: run it
10:24 tim-brown: that will highlight the check-= in red, since it doesn't have the epsilon argument
10:24 tim-brown: now delete and/or add lines and/or code, and the colours start to 2smear"
10:24 tim-brown: "smear"
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10:25 tim-brown: i have "parenthesis highlighting" switched on -- but i think, that's unswitchoffable; all i can do is change the colour scheme
10:28 tim-brown: i also have the problem that the right button menu pops down immediately, so it's unusable
10:30 asumu: I often see weird right menu behavior too.
10:30 tim-brown: that's a reported bug
10:30 tim-brown: (albeit low priority, by the looks of it)
10:31 tim-brown: i'm contemplating a language (a #lang, if possible) that facilitates unit testing (PLT games current challenge)
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10:32 tim-brown: i'd like a syntax: (define/tested (f a b) #:test (check-= (f 1 2) 3 0) (+ a b))
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10:32 tim-brown: which expands to (define (f a b) (+ a b)) and (check-= (f 1 2) 3 0)
10:33 tim-brown: i.e. two forms from a single syntax.
10:33 tim-brown: is that possible, or does a top-level syntax have to produce a single top-level form?
10:34 asumu: You can just expand to begin with those things.
10:34 tim-brown: id possible i'd like the (check-= ...) in a "tests" submodule
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10:35 tim-brown: can i do: (begin (module* main (define (foo a b) (+ a b))) (module* tests (check-= (f 1 2) 3 0)))
10:35 tim-brown: ?
10:35 tim-brown: [why don't i try?]
10:35 asumu: (they'll be spliced into the top-level)
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10:36 asumu: Yeah, you can expand into submodules. Though you might want module+ instead.
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10:38 tim-brown: yeah... i knew it wasn't plain module -- but not the random character! woo... that works.
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10:39 tim-brown: does begin behave differently just at the top-level?
10:40 tim-brown: why is that different to the (if #t (begin (displayln 'woo) (flush-output)) (begin (displayln 'boo) (flush-output)))
10:40 tim-brown: where i wouldn't want it splicing.
10:41 tim-brown: thats a bit asymmetrical isn't it?
10:42 carleastlund: There's nothing to "splice" inside an if.  The begin form does double duty.  As an expression, it sequences events.  In a definition context, it combines multiple forms that are "spliced" into the enclosing context.  But splicing in this sense is about scope of defined names, which expressions don't have.  So expressions don't care if they are spliced or not.
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10:44 tim-brown: is this "double duty" the result of two "implementations" of begin, or does begin just sequence the define and module (from above e.g.) forms; and the bindings are side effects of that?
10:45 carleastlund: It really is two different begins.  The expander treats definintion-like begins differently from expression-like begins.
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10:47 tim-brown: do you mean to say that it "coneceptually" two different begins (not just implemented two different ways for convenience)?
10:47 carleastlund: Conceptually different, yes.
10:50 tim-brown: go back to my first question about syntax becoming two forms... can i define a syntax like "true-bit/false-bit", so that (if (= 1 2) (true-bit/false-bit 'woo 'boo)) expands to (if (= 1 2) 'woo 'boo)
10:50 tim-brown: i.e. a single syntax object being transformed into something that is "spliced" into the code as two syntax objects?
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10:53 carleastlund: Nope.  No way to do that.  The if form gets expanded first, and it expects two arguments.  You'd need a special "splicing-aware" version of if to collaborate with your macro.
10:53 carleastlund: Er, three arguments; two after the condition.
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10:54 carleastlund: So, for instance, when we say that begin "splices" definitions into its context, we act like begin is the one doing this.  That's a lie.  The various definition context specifically recognize begin and collaborate with it.  The context does the real splicing, and the begin form is just a marker saying "splice me, please".
10:55 tim-brown: ah...
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10:56 tim-brown: bindings and scope are so fundamental to understanding a language, but i have real problems getting my head around racket's implementation sometimes
10:57 tim-brown: (i mean most of the time)
10:57 tim-brown: it's not helped by the macro system either IMO
10:59 carleastlund: Well, the macro system is doing a lot of things at once.  If anyone had ever figured out a simple, elegant way to do them all, we'd use that.  But so far, no other macro system has even attempted what Racket's can do, let alone found a simpler way.  If you're trying to understand Racket's bindings and scope, I would definitely not start with the expansion system, and once you do get to expansion, I don't know that I'd start with splicing definitions,
11:00 tim-brown: maybe i'll just work with it longer, and learn by osmosis :-)
11:00 tim-brown: carleastlund: thanks
11:00 carleastlund: tim-brown: no problem!
11:01 Sgeo_: carleastlund, what does Racket's syntax-case do that other syntax-case doesn't?
11:02 carleastlund: Sgeo_, uh, not much, I think.  But syntax-case itself is just a pattern matching form.  We have a better one -- syntax/parse -- that does some really fancy stuff, and the macro system that expands the inputs/outputs to syntax-case does a lot of stuff too.  But syntax-case itself is pretty plain.
11:02 Sgeo_ doesn't really understand syntax/parse
11:03 bremner: is there a writeup somewhere of how non-sexpr languages are implemented in racket?
11:03 carleastlund: You can use syntax-parse (sorry, it's - not /, I wrote the module name rather than the form name before) more or less like a drop-in replacement for syntax-case until you need to do fancy stuff.
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11:04 carleastlund: bremner: The short answer is "by writing a separate reader".  I don't know off the top of my head how well that's covered in the docs.
11:04 bremner: carleastlund: that's ok, I just wanted to know on a conceptual level
11:04 bremner: and you saved me reading a real writeup ;)
11:04 carleastlund: score one for brevity, then :)
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11:10 tim-brown: can i get the rudybot to tell me where a pdf file documenting syntax-parse is?
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11:11 bremner: rudybot: docs syntax/parse
11:11 rudybot: bremner: master Ryan Culpepper * abb8f63 (2 files in 1 dirs): syntax/parse: made link to pattern-directive docs more prominent, indexed ...
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11:11 bremner: rudybot: doc syntax/parse
11:11 rudybot: bremner: your sandbox is ready
11:11 rudybot: bremner: not found in any library's documentation: syntax/parse
11:11 bremner: sigh
11:11 tim-brown: bremner: so glad i'm not the only one who goes through that trauma
11:14 tim-brown: s'ok i got it in html... but prefer the pdf for printing
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11:25 carleastlund: rodybot: doc syntax-parse
11:25 carleastlund: rudybot: doc syntax-parse
11:25 rudybot: carleastlund: your sandbox is ready
11:25 rudybot: carleastlund: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: syntax/parse
11:25 carleastlund: rudybot: (require syntax/parse)
11:25 rudybot: carleastlund: Done.
11:25 carleastlund: rudybot: doc syntax-parse
11:25 rudybot: carleastlund: http://docs.racket-lang.org/syntax/Parsing_Syntax.html#(form._((lib._syntax%2Fparse..rkt)._syntax-parse))
11:26 tim-brown: rudybot: any chance of a pointer to the pdf file?
11:26 rudybot: tim-brown: no i thing it could work quite well with light-touch-but-positive-response tabs -- remember, they can have much greater range of movement than typical mouse/laptop pointer buttons
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11:32 asumu: bremner: did you see dyoo's BF guide (re: non-sexp langs)
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11:50 tim-brown: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/pdf/syntax.pdf
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11:56 tim-brown: night all
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12:30 bremner: asumu: ah, thanks, that looks interesting. http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/dyoo/bf.plt/1/3/planet-docs/manual/index.html
12:30 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/aubldxu
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12:46 asumu: bremner: I think his copy on his webpage is more recent http://hashcollision.org/brainfudge/
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13:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/tGwtVQ
13:00 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 6e21e34 Danny Yoo: Correct location calculations for non-terminals....
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13:02 bremner: asumu: thanks
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13:07 bremner wonders idly what the whalesong build process uses java for
13:13 Sgeo_: Would it make sense if structs with immutable fields created functional setters
13:14 didi wonders what would take to build a 100% (albeit maybe some C) Racket GUI library
13:14 Sgeo_: e.g. (struct foo (bar baz)) along with making foo-bar and foo-baz functions, made foo-bar-set and foo-baz-set
13:14 Sgeo_: Rather than needing to use struct-copy, in which case it's harder to "fake" the setter?
13:15 didi: Sgeo_: I like that.
13:15 didi: rudybot: (define (make-foo bar baz) (list bar baz))
13:15 rudybot: didi: your sandbox is ready
13:15 rudybot: didi: Done.
13:16 didi: rudybot: (define (foo-bar-set foo bar) (make-foo bar (second foo)))
13:16 rudybot: didi: Done.
13:16 didi: rudybot: (foo-var-set (make-foo 4 2) 7)
13:16 rudybot: didi: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: foo-var-set in module: 'program
13:16 didi: rudybot: (foo-bar-set (make-foo 4 2) 7)
13:16 rudybot: didi: ; Value: (7 2)
13:17 samth: bremner: to run the Google Closure compiler
13:18 bremner: oh, right.
13:18 bremner: that's like 3 helpful answers in one day. I better stop.
13:19 didi: bremner: You've reached your daily quota. Now there will be only unhelpful, somewhat funny, answers.
13:20 bremner: /query rudybot
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13:23 ijp: didi: I thought the racket gui library is mostly racket code
13:24 didi: ijp: I guess it depends on what you define as "mostly". On Linux, it uses GTK+.
13:27 samth: ijp: the racket part is all racket code
13:27 samth: but it uses system libraries (like GTK)
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13:31 bremner: didi: I guess most people prefer native look and feel, at least on platforms where that is well defined.
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13:33 dyoo: bremner: you had a question on whalesong?
13:34 dyoo: ah: it uses Java just so it can run Google Closure Compiler
13:34 didi: bremner: Oh, I'm not advocating for a change. I find the GUI library _very_ pleasant to use. I was just wondering.
13:34 dyoo: bremner: no other good reason for the Java dependency other than that.
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13:35 dyoo: bremner: with regards to non-sexpr based languages: the bf tutorial I cooked up is the beginnings of that: http://hashcollision.org/brainfudge
13:36 dyoo: bremner: and I'm trying to address the parser part of the story with ragg: http://hashcollision.org/ragg
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13:37 ozzloy: https://gist.github.com/4489783 what's the right way to test a parser failure?
13:38 didi: bremner: But I've been finding that the "Look and Feel" argument is losing ground.
13:39 ozzloy: dyoo, oh cool!  i saw that code on github recently and was wondering when ragg would be up and running
13:39 dyoo: ozzloy: looking at your example now.  Also note that I have a json-lite example in ragg: https://github.com/dyoo/ragg/blob/master/ragg/test/test-baby-json.rkt
13:41 dyoo: ozzloy: yeah, I'm writing docs for Ragg now.  I caught most of the lingering weird bugs with location last night, so as soon as the docs are cooked, I'll post onto planet2.
13:42 ozzloy: where is planet2?  it looks like it's in beta
13:42 ozzloy: from the google search
13:42 ozzloy: dyoo, also awesome! re: baby json
13:45 samth: dyoo: post now!
13:45 samth: post early and often
13:45 dyoo: ok, I can do that, and then revise the planet2 link as I get the docs ready.  Give me a sec...
13:47 bremner: dyoo: thanks.
13:48 bremner: didi: dunno, I just assume that windows and mac users will see things differently than I do and get on with life.
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13:57 ozzloy: so ... what's wrong with the check-exn at the end of https://gist.github.com/4489783 ?
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14:04 dyoo: ozzloy: ok, so I'm looking at the code
14:04 ozzloy: \o/
14:04 ozzloy: thanks!
14:04 dyoo: your error handler is not saying anything about "true is not valid at top level"
14:05 dyoo: do you want your error handler to raise a particular srcloc exception?
14:05 ozzloy: er...
14:05 ozzloy: i guess so?
14:05 dyoo: :)
14:05 dyoo: Give me a second.
14:05 ozzloy: oh!
14:05 ozzloy: i remember seeing ....
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14:06 ozzloy goes to the example directory
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14:09 ozzloy: there, racket/collects/parser-tools/examples/read.rkt
14:11 dyoo: ozzloy: you could replace the body of your error handler with raise-read-error (from the syntax/readerr library), after which your error test should be happier
14:12 ozzloy: yeah, that's what's in the read.rkt example
14:12 ozzloy: i had read it a while ago
14:12 ozzloy: but not recently enough to recollect
14:12 dyoo: ozzloy: revised version of your code: https://gist.github.com/4495946
14:12 dyoo: where I have no idea what to fill in the "???" thing.  :)
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14:13 ozzloy: read.rkt puts in source-name
14:14 ozzloy: which is an argument to the parser generator
14:14 dyoo: The error message is not quite accurate though: it's not just the case that we'll see this error when something's disallowed by the toplevel.  It's more general: it's when the parse fails because the grammar doesn't fit.
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14:14 ozzloy: i think i'll just make the parse error message "parse error"
14:14 dyoo: yeah, unfortunately I think that's the best we can do at the moment
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14:20 ozzloy: thanks dyoo !
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14:22 ozzloy: dyoo, so what if i wanted to collect all the problems with a json document?
14:23 dyoo: ozzloy: I don't believe the parsing framework provides a recovery mechanism
14:23 ozzloy: continue parsing after encountering an error, and keep a list of encountered errors (later that list will be used to highlight the errors)
14:23 ozzloy: oh
14:23 dyoo: ozzloy: so if you wanted to do something like that, you may need to add your own error productions into the grammar
14:24 dyoo: so that these "errors" can be collected during the parse.  There might be a better way to do this, but I don't know of it yet
14:26 ozzloy: i saw something about recovery, but i didn't quite understand it...  "If the parser encounters an error, after invoking the supplied error function, it will try to use error productions to continue parsing."
14:26 dyoo: really?  Huh!  Can you send a link?  I can take a look as well
14:27 dyoo: ah, I see it in the docs.  But I've never seen parser-tools/yacc do what this described.  :)
14:29 ozzloy: i'm trying to find code that used error and had a note about continuing parses after an error
14:29 ozzloy: it's somewhere on the internets
14:29 ozzloy: i saw it!
14:30 didi: ozzloy: A fuzzy picture doesn't count.
14:30 ozzloy: http://git.racket-lang.org/plt/blob/HEAD:/collects/parser-tools/examples/calc.rkt
14:30 ozzloy: it's in the other example!
14:30 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/as9w35s
14:31 ozzloy: thanks rudybot
14:31 dyoo: ah.
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14:31 ozzloy: so you understand that?
14:31 dyoo: So if the production starts with the word "error", then it's an error production.  That would have been nice to see in the documentation proper.
14:32 ozzloy: does that mean if i had something like "true{}" i'd get back an empty hash?
14:32 ozzloy: and an error message about "true"
14:32 dyoo: I think so
14:33 ozzloy: assuming my parser was working and stuff
14:33 dyoo: But you have to make sure your error handler doesn't actually raise an exception, so that the parser knows to continue marching forward then.
14:33 ozzloy: right, i thought so
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14:54 ozzloy: http://docs.racket-lang.org/parser-tools/Parsers.html says "If it cannot, it raises exn:fail:read." so i thought i didn't actually need to raise that in my error handler
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15:09 didi: rudybot: Give dyoo some cookie points for Rickrolling me with syntax rules.
15:09 rudybot: didi: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: some in module: 'program
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15:34 dyoo: didi: :)
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15:43 samth: dyoo: where is this rickroll?
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15:46 dyoo: samth: sorry, got disconnected for a  moment.   It's at the beginning of the bf tutorial, where while loops are defined
15:47 samth: dyoo: ah, i remember that
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15:49 dyoo: Does the ragg informal quickstart at the beginning of http://hashcollision.org/ragg/ read ok?  I'm always worried that what makes sense to me might be completely alien to other people.
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15:55 chandler: dyoo: Perfect sense to me.
15:55 chandler: Is this on PLaneT now?
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15:56 chandler: (Doesn't seem so.)
15:56 dyoo: chandler: yes, it's on PLaneT2 at the moment, since I'm depending on it being a collection
15:56 dyoo: not on PLaneT1 yet
15:56 chandler: Ah.
15:57 dyoo: I think I'll make a .plt collection for people who want to use it on 5.3.1.  Not yet though: I need to finish documentation first.
15:57 dyoo: Need to get section 2 in shape, because it's not immediately clear why having it return syntax objects is a good thing
15:57 chandler: It isn't?
15:58 dyoo: It's a _good thing_, but if it were obvious, someone would have already done it, right?  :)
15:59 chandler: ... provided a sufficiently large set of someones, yes. I don't think the set of racket programmers is sufficiently large yet. :-)
16:01 dyoo: chandler: yeah.  The current plan is to have section 2 show how to use syntax-parse to take the output for simple line drawings and interpret it, and then go further and make a #lang out of it.  That way, we have a good, simple example that's obviously not s-expression based.  And it's real: it comes directly from a Stack Overflow question from a few months ago.
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16:09 chandler: dyoo: Sounds like a good plan to me!
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18:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master f577b49 Asumu Takikawa: Fix polydots...
18:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c5c6280 Asumu Takikawa: Change exception predicate for a test...
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19:28 dyoo: chandler: whew.  Section 2 of the ragg docs is sorta done.
19:29 jonrafkind: do you really think 'ragg' is a good name
19:29 dyoo: It's short, and might make for puns.  "Cleaning a ragg."  "Making a ragg doll."
19:30 jonrafkind: it sounds disgusting to me
19:30 dyoo: :(  really?
19:30 nathanpc: sorry for asking, but what's ragg?
19:30 jonrafkind: ya
19:30 nathanpc: a Racket project?
19:30 dyoo: nathanpc: http://hashcollision.org/ragg
19:30 nathanpc: hmm
19:31 dyoo: It's a project I'm in the middle of polishing for release
19:31 dyoo: I'm trying to get the docs ready.
19:31 nathanpc: oh nice
19:31 nathanpc: congratulations and good luck.
19:31 dyoo: if you have comments, please feel free to send them my way
19:31 chandler: dyoo: Why do you name the syntax transformers `compile-foo'?
19:32 dyoo: chandler: to parallel the construction of 'interpret-foo' in the last subsection
19:32 dyoo: the code there is intentionally meant to echo what the reader just saw
19:32 chandler: Heh, I wasn't really sure what the reason for the whole interpreter exercise was for.
19:33 dyoo: part of it is to fight the mistake that I've seen a few people make, to think that syntax-parse _has_ to be used with syntax transformers
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19:39 chandler: dyoo: Just out of curiosity, why replicate line/column/offset/span in your token struct instead of just having the struct wrap a syntax object?
19:39 chandler: dyoo: ... or maybe even just having tokens *be* syntax objects with particular properties?
19:40 dyoo: implementation detail.  I wanted to be able to easily distiguish token values, and for that, I like having my own structure whose predicate I can trust.
19:42 dyoo: chandler: it might be a bad decision, frankly.  I'll think about that a little more.
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19:45 chandler: dyoo: That seems reasonable, especially since you'd still want to have a `token' constructor that takes the token class and value. But it might be nice for it just to be a two-argument function that takes a class and a syntax object and returns a wrapper struct.
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21:34 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 4d3a5ba Greg Hendershott: Use Racket lexer for code blocks....
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