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03:18 Sgeo: Oh hi ambrosebs
03:18 Sgeo: Funny seeing so many Clojure people here
03:18 ambrosebs: Sgeo: :)
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03:31 Sgeo: Anyone want to implement Banana Scheme?
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04:55 Sgeo: Does Racket come with any CPS macro stuff?
04:55 Sgeo is unsure of the details, but reading Oleg's presentation now
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06:43 Sgeo: I wish there was a simple and clear tutorial on writing macros in CPS style
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07:38 asumu: offby1, Sgeo: Racket comes with other generic functions. Sequences (for loops), equal?, printing, are examples. You can also define your own generic functions.
07:40 Sgeo: "Generally, a syntax-rule cannot obtain the result of the expansion of its argument expression. "
07:40 asumu: rudybot: eval (define 'foo 2) (define z 3) (quote z)
07:40 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
07:40 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: 2
07:40 asumu: Heh. And there's another reason why reader abbreviations like that are bad.
07:41 Sgeo: Should I take it that that syntax-case solves that problem, without needing the machinery that Oleg defines?
07:41 asumu: Yes, it's called local expansion
07:42 Sgeo: Hmm
07:42 anonymous: // Some people think generics are misfeauture
07:42 anonymous: ;;*
07:42 Sgeo: anonymous, o.O why?
07:42 anonymous: ...and object-oriented programming
07:43 anonymous: wait a minute
07:44 anonymous: “The more I use Go, the more I think generics would be a useless misfeature, why do so many people think they need them” — Aram Hăvărneanu (@aramh)
07:44 anonymous: “I’ve been programming Go "professionally” for months now without a single “oh, generics would make this easier” moment outside of reading mailing list posts about algorithms and math.“ — Kyle Lemons
07:44 anonymous: What do people here think about object-oriented programming? Is it evil?
07:44 bremner: just overrated. Useful in it's place
07:44 asumu: That's a different "generics" than what we were discussing.
07:45 anonymous: asumu: sorry.
07:45 asumu: The Go guy really means "parameteric polymorphism" ala Java.
07:45 asumu: Which is a pretty useful feature if you're doing higher-order programming.
07:45 bremner: well, java has about the most anoying implementation ever
07:45 Sgeo: It depends on the OO system
07:46 anonymous: Sgeo: Paul Graham decided to not realize any, i.e.
07:46 anonymous: (in Arc)
07:46 asumu: anonymous: what I meant by "generic" was just that a function (like dict-ref) can be overloaded to work on multiple datatypes.
07:46 Sgeo: I haven't looked at Arc. Except apparently it's implemented as an interpreter rather than a Racket language for some reason
07:47 asumu: Arc also doesn't have a whole lot of anything else.
07:47 Sgeo: asumu, can it be made dependent on several arguments?
07:47 Sgeo: Multiple-dispatch?
07:47 Sgeo: I think I like multiple dispatch
07:47 asumu: Racket doesn't support that yet, but we might in the future.
07:47 anonymous: asumu: AFAIK, it's more since Paul Graham considers OOP as evil.
07:48 anonymous: asumu: do you? Or it just depends on implemetation?
07:48 bremner: I consider "consider $X as evil" as evil.
07:48 asumu: I don't think OOP is evil, but I like few existing OOP languages.
07:48 anonymous googled asumu and stamourv, you are really cool guys and your opinions are very important for me
07:48 bremner goes back to writing GOTOs
07:49 asumu: But I think languages in the Smalltalk tradition are cool and Scala is promising.
07:50 asumu: Well, I'm just one hacker, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
07:51 anonymous: ^^ I'd love if someone can give me a good link, considering criticism of OOP
07:51 anonymous: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/
07:51 Sgeo: The thing I dislike about Smalltalk (besides single-dispatch) is the tendency to monkey-patch. I wouldn't be upset if method names were namespaced somehow, but currently, there's too much of a risk of name collision for my taste
07:51 anonymous hopes it won't be considered as SPAM...
07:51 anonymous: if someone gave*
07:59 asumu: I don't have any criticisms on hand, but I think William Cook's blog post on OOP is interesting: http://wcook.blogspot.com/2012/07/proposal-for-simplified-modern.html
08:03 anonymous: asumu: thanks
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08:47 Sgeo: How advanced does HtDP get, exactly? Can I learn anything about good ways to structure programs, even if I've been (hobby) programming for many years?
08:48 carleastlund: HtDP's "basics" are quite advanced from some perspective.  What HtDP does in the very early chapters, some CS curriculums don't cover until much, much later.  So whether you can still learn from it depends a lot on what you already know.
08:48 carleastlund: I know I was still learning stuff in it well into my third time _teaching_ from it while a graduate student, so personally, I recommend giving it a shot.
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08:50 Sgeo: carleastlund, just to be sure: We're not talking just things that one would learn by learning Haskell?
08:50 Sgeo: Because I've played with Haskell for a while
08:51 Sgeo: I'm quite comfortable with first-class functions at this point
08:51 Sgeo: Although BSL blocks those
08:51 carleastlund: Sgeo: then there will definitely be some overlap.  But I had done quite a bit of ML programming, including professionally, before I came to HtDP, and still found it worthwhile.
08:51 Sgeo: Huh, ok.
08:52 carleastlund: Granted, the basic lessons on the page were already familiar.  Like, I knew how to abstract higher order functions out of simpler programs.  But I had never seen a precise formula for doing so written out before, and I found that enlightening.
08:54 Sgeo: Hmm, ok
08:54 Sgeo: I actually don't trust my program design skills at all
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08:55 Sgeo: A few months back wrote an IRC bot in Tcl. It needs to be cleaned up. I think I have three functions, different names, same code
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08:56 Sgeo: (Which actually makes a very little sense, since I'm dispatching based on a string value and the way I'm doing that is by calling a function named partially by the value I'm dispatching on. But I should at the very least make that repetitive code a default case or something
09:02 Sgeo: o.O I thought there weren't higher-order functions in BSL, but apparently
09:11 Sgeo: Um
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09:26 Sgeo: carleastlund, would it be repetitive to do both HtDP and SICP?
09:26 Sgeo: I really do want to do SICP at some point
09:27 carleastlund: Sgeo, I've never read SICP myself, but as I understand it, it is not redundant, and is best read after going through HtDP.
09:28 Sgeo: Ok, thank you
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09:31 Sgeo: http://docs.racket-lang.org/htdp-langs/beginner.html#(def._htdp-beginner._((lib._lang%2Fhtdp-beginner..rkt)._e))
09:31 Sgeo: This documentation calls e a procedure, when it appears not to be
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09:52 Sgeo: HtDP2 seems incomplete
10:04 asumu: Sgeo: can you file that as a bug on bugs.racket-lang.org? (the e/pi thing)
10:05 Sgeo: Oh, I should also do that for the other documentation bug I put on GitHub
10:07 asumu: (the bug database will eventually move to github, but for now it's there)
10:07 Sgeo: Should I take what I filed on GitHub and post it to bugs.racket-lang.org?
10:09 Sgeo: Just did
10:09 asumu: It's more likely someone will fix it there, so yes. And thanks.
10:10 Sgeo: yw
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11:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master a496404 Matthew Flatt: setup/configtab: prevent cross-module inlining of configuration...
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18:48 anonymous: is here anyone I can discuss documentation with?
18:48 anonymous: I am not sure, maybe I am wrong, but maybe there is almost an error
18:48 anonymous: the*
18:49 anonymous: "The Racket Reference"
18:50 anonymous: (almost?)
18:50 anonymous: …
18:50 Sgeo: anonymous, sure
18:50 Sgeo: If there is an error, file a bug report
18:50 anonymous: Sgeo: thx.
18:50 anonymous: The dynamic extent of an expression is the sequence of evaluation steps during which an expression contains the redex. : an? maybe better say "the"?
18:50 Sgeo: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/
18:51 Sgeo: hm
18:51 anonymous: Sgeo: I know only essential grammar
18:53 Sgeo isn't sure
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19:54 bremner: "an" is fine
19:55 bremner: oh, the second one. Hmm. I guess "the" would be slightly better. But really, if that is your biggest complaint...
20:11 anonymous: bremner: …?
20:12 bremner: anonymous: what part of my statement is unclear?
20:13 anonymous: ah, sorry... I expected "then"
20:13 anonymous: not, it isn't
20:13 anonymous: I expected maybe it is not "slightly" better
20:13 anonymous: it is a grammatical error
20:14 Sgeo: I feel like "an" and "the" would give it different semantics
20:14 Sgeo: Then again, I still don't really understand this stuff
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20:38 anonymous: I am hesitated to ask... This is more problem of my English. Is (- 4 (+ 1 1)) in tail position with respect to (+ 1 1). Sorry, it's deeeep night here. Is [+ 1 1] in tail position with respect to itself ([+ 1 1]). Is (cond #f (print "false") [+ 1 1] (print "true")) in tail position with respect to this [+ 1 1]
20:38 anonymous: I am very sorry, I should go sleep, but...
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20:39 anonymous also doesn't know the term "enclosing" perfectly, goes to dictionary to make it perfect
20:39 anonymous: a*
20:41 Sgeo: I don't think (- 4 (+ 1 1)) can be in tail position with respect to (+ 1 1). The question would be if (+ 1 1) is in tail position with respect to (- 4 (+ 1 1))
20:41 Sgeo: Which it isn't, because once you figure out (+ 1 1), you still have more work to do to get the answer to (- 4 (+ 1 1))
20:42 Sgeo: Every expression is in tail position with respect to itself,  because once you find itself, that's the result of itself
20:42 Sgeo: (if (< 0 1) (+ 1 1) (+ 2 2))
20:43 Sgeo: (+ 1 1) is in tail position with respect to that entire expression, because once you've determined that you need to evaluate (+ 1 1) rather than (+ 2 2), the answer to the entire expression is the same as the answer to (+ 1 1)
20:44 Sgeo: Note that (+ 2 2) is also in tail position with respect to that expression, because if it were being evaluated instead, then that would be the result of the expression, even though in this case, it won't be evaluated
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20:57 anonymous: I am not sure what does mean the word "answer". Is 2 the answer to (+ 1 1)? If so, is (+ 1 1) in tail position with respect to (+ 0 (+ 1 1))?
20:57 Sgeo: Maybe "answer" is the wrong word
20:57 Sgeo: But 2 is the result of evaluating (+ 1 1)
20:58 Sgeo: (+ 1 1) is not in tail position with respect to (+ 0 (+ 1 1)) because after evaluating (+ 1 1) to get 2 it still needs to evaluate (+ 0 2)
21:08 anonymous: Maybe I am wrong, but... I feel like here (if (+ 1 1) (if (+ 2 2) (print "true") (print "false")) (print "not truth")) , the continuation of (if (+ 2 2) (print "true") (print "false")) is "(if (+ 1 1)" and "(print "not truth"))".
21:08 anonymous touched "enter" accidentally yet
21:09 anonymous: oh... forget it, I need to edit
21:12 Sgeo: If I don't respond, feel free to ping me
21:13 anonymous: Maybe I am wrong, but... I feel like here (if (+ 1 1) (if (+ 2 2) "true" "false") "not truth") , the continuation of (if (+ 2 2) "true" "false") is "(if (+ 1 1)" and  "not truth")". The continuation of "true" is (if (+ 2 2) and "false" or
21:13 anonymous: ok, thx
21:15 anonymous: (if (+ 1 1) (if (+ 2 2) , AND, "false") "not truth" (depends on context). But it is definitely NOT (if  (+ 1 1)
21:16 anonymous: and "not truth")
21:16 anonymous: the continuation of "true" and enclosing it  (if (+ 2 2) "true" "false") is not the same!
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21:17 anonymous: but to be in tail position, it must be the same
21:17 anonymous: according to "The Racket Reference"
21:18 anonymous: An expression expr1 is in tail position with respect to an enclosing expression expr2 if, whenever expr1 becomes a redex, its continuation is the same as was the enclosing expr2’s continuation.
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21:21 anonymous: So, if the continuation of "true" is different from enclosing it (if (+ 2 2) "true" "false"), who do we say it is the same(we intend it when we tell that "true" is in tail position with respect to (if (+ 2 2) "true" "false")?
21:21 anonymous: What have I got wrong?
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21:21 anonymous: Sgeo?
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21:22 Sgeo: Hm
21:23 Sgeo: The continuation of "true" (i.e. the thing that happens next after "true" is evaluated) is the same as the continuation of (if (+ 2 2) "true" "false")
21:23 Sgeo: Because after you evaluate "true" there is no more work to be done by that if form
21:24 Sgeo: Oh, let me read the reference quote
21:24 anonymous: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/eval-model.htm
21:24 anonymous: 1.1.2
21:24 anonymous: and 1.1.1 (continuation)
21:26 Sgeo: Where are you getting that the continuations are different?
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21:26 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 4f22b3b Robby Findler: fix traditional/simplified initial choice
21:26 RacketCommitBot: racket/master dd161bb Robby Findler: allow multiple string constants to be in a single "line"...
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21:31 asumu: anonymous: the continuation when "true" is being evaluated is [], the same as the continuation of (if (+ 1 1) ...).
21:32 asumu: Because when the outer if is evaluated, first (+ 1 1) is evaluated with a continuation of (if [] (if ...) "not truth").
21:32 anonymous: Sgeo: if I got it correctly, continuation is just text, surrounding a command computer runs at the time, i.e. in (+ 1 (+ 2 (+ 3 3))), the continuation of (+ 3 3) is (+ 2 [] ) and (+ 1 ( + 2 [] ))
21:32 asumu: Then the outer if is discarded, and (if (+ 2 2) "true" "false") is evaluated with a continuation of [].
21:33 asumu: Repeat and you finally get "true", no remaining computation.
21:33 Sgeo: A continuation is not just the surrounding text
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21:34 Sgeo: It's actually the future of the evaluation.
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21:40 anonymous is going to re-read the docs and chat again and again, thank you very much!
21:40 anonymous: asumu: It seems I've found again a typo, but Sgeo and bremner aren't sure is it a typo
21:41 anonymous: ...and I am
21:41 Sgeo: I'm not entirely sure of the intended meaning of the passage, and I feel like the difference _might_ change it
21:41 Sgeo: Although just a one word thing like that making a difference is probably bad stylistically
21:42 anonymous: 02:50 < anonymous> The dynamic extent of an expression is the sequence of evaluation steps during which an expression contains the redex. : an? maybe better say "the"?
21:43 anonymous: Sgeo: did you read the reference? Or where did you learn Racket?
21:44 Sgeo: I've tried reading the reference, but it's a bit hard for me to understand at times
21:44 Sgeo: I've mostly just read the guide, occasional bits of the reference
21:44 Sgeo: Some Scheme stuff despite knowing there would be differences
21:44 asumu: I would probably say "that expression" or say "which it contains the redex".
21:44 Sgeo: I've also tried learning Common Lisp and Clojure
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21:53 anonymous: Sgeo: why don't you come here and say I don't understand ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4930061 ),
21:53 anonymous: When nerds are unbearable it's usually because they're trying too hard to seem smart. But the smarter they are, the less pressure they feel to act smart. So as a rule you can recognize genuinely smart people by their ability to say things like "I don't know," "Maybe you're right," and "I don't understand x well enough."
21:53 anonymous: (c)Paul Graham
21:53 anonymous: So, you can improve the documentation
21:55 Sgeo: Because often when I look at the concepts later on I find that I get a better understanding later
21:55 anonymous: Sgeo: I don't mean I want to proof you something... But maybe among cool guys it's not a shame?
21:55 Sgeo: Things that seem difficult to me at first become less difficult later
21:55 anonymous: At least you can do it like me: to a deep night
21:56 anonymous: in*
21:56 anonymous: and then say "I just wanted to sleep!"
21:56 Sgeo: Hmm
21:56 anonymous: if you're afraid to be ashamed
21:56 Sgeo: A problem among some communities is that the only way to learn certain things is to hang out in their IRC channels
21:58 anonymous: Sgeo: is Racket community one of them?
21:58 Sgeo: anonymous, I don't know. I haven't been in the Racket community very long, I'm only recently getting re-interested in Racket
21:59 anonymous: s/ashamed/disgraced
22:05 Sgeo: I have no shame
22:06 Cryovat: That frilly floral dress he's wearing should have tipped you off about that
22:06 Cryovat: (sorry)
22:06 Sgeo: lol
22:11 bremner: anonymous: I didn't say it wasn't a typo. I just have a hard time getting very excited about it.
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22:14 bremner: anonymous: sorry, I don't mean to belittle your efforts, but there are so many more serious problems in every software system, including racket, that generating a large number of trivial bug reports can be counter productive.
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22:14 Sgeo: bremner, erk
22:15 Sgeo: bremner, maybe a category for trivial documentation typos?
22:15 bremner: dunno. I'm not a racket project insider; that's just my personal opinion.
22:16 asumu: For small documentation fixes, pull requests are helpful. Since there's rarely much need for discussion.
22:16 asumu: (and doc fixes take less expertise usually)
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22:29 gcr: Hey, I'm trying to interactively talk to a subprocess, but the subprocess never fflushes its stdout, so sometimes my (read-line stdout-port) blocks from the racket side. Is there a way to ask that file descriptor to use unbuffered output?
22:30 gcr: I can eg. say (displayln "Yes" stdin) (flush-output stdin), and watch the process with strace to see that it's actually accepting the input
22:30 gcr: and then it writes it back out, but it never calls flush so the output doesn't show up to racket
22:33 gcr: bah, this process just does a bunch of putchar()s
22:33 gcr: it behaves the same way if i call "process | cat" on the shell; nothing output until the process exits
22:36 gcr: Bah. Replacing my (subprocess ... "/usr/bin/adventure") call with (subprocess ... "/usr/bin/stdbuf" "--output=0" "/usr/bin/adventure") fixes my problem, thanks to the "stdbuf" program which is now part of coreutils
22:37 anonymous: bremner: nevermind, definitely I don't feel offended or something at all.
22:39 anonymous: like that*
22:42 asumu: gcr: just in case, you can set buffer mode with file-stream-buffer-mode.
22:42 gcr: asumu: Thanks, but that didn't seem to help. (This input port was created with a #f argument to subprocess if that means anything)
22:42 asumu: Oh okay.
22:44 anonymous: bremner: do you mean I should stop waste the insider's time because of grammar errors or just exactly it will be "slightly better"?
22:46 anonymous: would be*
22:46 Sgeo: asumu, well, one suggestion might be to suggest the fix yourself
22:46 Sgeo: Erm, anonymous
22:46 Sgeo: That's what asumu suggested I think
22:47 Sgeo: Although I don't know if PLT actually looks at GitHub
22:50 asumu: Pointing them out on IRC is fine too. I'll push a fix to that typo when I push some other commits.
22:50 anonymous: Sgeo: do you mean my grammar? Ok(As far as I can), but where has asumu suggested it?
22:51 Sgeo: anonymous, no, I mean, as in you could submit the fix yourself
22:51 anonymous: OK*
22:51 Sgeo: Or well, a suggestion to make the fix, while specifying what the fix is
22:51 anonymous: Ah...
22:51 anonymous: Yes
22:51 anonymous: Of course...
22:51 (part) gcr: "ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"
22:52 Sgeo: What's the difference between syntax and quote-syntax ?
22:52 anonymous: Must I write … instead of ... whenever I can?
22:53 asumu: quote-syntax does not do substitution from a pattern.
22:53 anonymous: Sorry I wasn't…
22:53 Sgeo: anonymous, sorry. I'm not suggesting you're saying things in the wrong way.
22:53 asumu: rudybot: (with-syntax ([x #'foo]) (quote-syntax x))
22:53 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: #<syntax:1:39 x>
22:53 Sgeo: It's fine to use ..., and no one here will get offended by bad grammer, probably
22:53 asumu: rudybot: (with-syntax ([x #'foo]) (syntax x))
22:53 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: #<syntax:1:19 foo>
22:53 anonymous: Sgeo: I've got it! I mean without intending your message
22:54 Sgeo: Oh
22:54 anonymous: didn't mean*
22:54 anonymous: So, must I?
22:54 anonymous: Nevermind...
22:55 anonymous: …*
22:56 Sgeo: Feel free to use ...
22:56 Sgeo: Actually, in syntax pattern matching, you have to use ... instead of ?
22:56 Sgeo: asumu, I don't entirely understand the difference between free-identifier=? and bound-identifier=?
22:57 (quit) dsantiago: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
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22:59 anonymous: bremner: do you mean I should stop waste the insider's time because of grammar errors or just exactly it will be "slightly better"?
23:00 asumu: Sgeo: I don't either, but the best explanation I have read is here: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/syntax.html#g136 (scroll down a bit)
23:00 asumu: Of which the most important sentence is "The predicates free-identifier=? and bound-identifier=? are used to compare identifiers according to their intended use as free references or bound identifiers in a given context."
23:03 anonymous: that*
23:04 Sgeo: "Two identifiers that are free-identifier=? may not be bound-identifier=?. An identifier introduced by a transformer may refer to the same enclosing binding as an identifier not introduced by the transformer, but an introduced binding for one will not capture references to the other. On the other hand, identifiers that are bound-identifier=? are free-identifier=?, as long as the identifiers have valid bindings in the context where they are comp
23:04 Sgeo: ared."
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23:20 Sgeo: I'm looking at the grammar
23:21 Sgeo: How can (begin (define-values ...)) be legal in a module?
23:21 (quit) jeapostrophe: Read error: Operation timed out
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23:22 (quit) Nisstyre: Read error: Connection reset by peer
23:23 Sgeo: Hmm, unless it actually isn't?
23:26 (quit) Shviller: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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23:40 anonymous: (and #t "true") . Is "true" in tail position with respect to (and #t "true")
23:57 Sgeo: yes
23:58 Sgeo: Hmm, here's an interesting question, I'm not sure of the answer: Is #t in tail position with respect to (and #t "true")
23:58 Sgeo: Because if it evaluates to a true value, then you still need to evaluate the second item, but if it evaluated to #f, then it's done
23:59 Sgeo: Hmm, I guess you could be the result of an expression but not be in tail position with respect to it. Not sure what the case is here