00:00 rck: evening, starting sicp. anyone mind showing me around racket?
00:00 rck: trying to load a file into the repl and then be able to call functions from that file
00:00 mithos28: (load "file.scm")
00:00 rck: yeah I tried that
00:01 mithos28: what happened?
00:01 rck: seems to work but racket doesn't know about my functions
00:01 rck: namespace or something I'm missing?
00:01 lewis1711: you need to do provide
00:01 rck: lewis1711: mind elaborating?
00:02 mithos28: rck: Are you following sicp to the letter (more or less)?
00:02 lewis1711: (provide <names> ...) or (provide (all-defined-out)) if you just want everything
00:02 rck: mithos28: I'm on chapter 1 so pretty standard scheme stuff so far
00:02 didi: lewis1711: `load' is different from `enter!'.
00:03 didi: Nah, `require'.
00:03 mithos28: rck: you will have some issues because sicp is so old, and doesn't have a module system
00:03 mithos28: what does your file that you are trying to load look like
00:03 rck: just 3 functions
00:03 (quit) francisl: Quit: francisl
00:03 mithos28: can you paste it somewhere?
00:03 rck: sure one sec
00:04 rck: http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.3
00:04 rck: not mine but the first example is pretty close
00:04 didi: rck: Is the file you want to load in the same directory which you started Racket?
00:04 rck: yup
00:04 mithos28: load works fine for me
00:04 rck: (load "filename")
00:04 rck: then you can (function x y z)?
00:04 mithos28: yep
00:04 rck: strange
00:05 mithos28: can you paste your whole setup
00:05 rck: okay thanks. I'll keep researching
00:05 rck: mithos28: what exactly do you mean?
00:05 mithos28: Show the actual file you are using, and what your repl looks like
00:06 mithos28: I'm guessing you are glossing over some key difference that you don't know is key
00:06 rck: my file is exactly like the top example from that site. I did add #lang scheme though
00:06 mithos28: that would be it
00:06 rck: repl is homebrew install racket
00:06 didi: :^)
00:07 mithos28: If you want to use load you need to remove the #lang scheme
00:07 rck: no lang directive at all?
00:07 mithos28: correct
00:07 rck: haha oy. thanks!
00:08 mithos28: If you want to use a #lang you need to use provide and require, because that is the module system
00:08 rck: ahhh okay
00:09 rck: yep works
00:09 rck: hurray
00:09 didi: Go rck!
00:09 sw2wolf: How about enter! ?
00:10 mithos28: sw2wolf: enter! is for the module system
00:11 sw2wolf: mithos28: require is same as enter! ?
00:12 mithos28: no, enter! requires using the module system
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00:12 mithos28: It is the same as the DrRacket repl
00:12 lewis1711: what's the "idomatic" thing to do when your struct needs some constructor logic? right now I just make a little function called "make-structname" and only export that.
00:12 mithos28: lewis1711: I would use structname*, and export that
00:13 mithos28: renamed of course
00:13 mithos28: So you are doing it the right way
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00:13 lewis1711: you mean define structname*, then export structname? yeah that makes sense
00:14 lewis1711: *export it as
00:14 mithos28: Yeah so the only change was make-structname to structname* in the inside of the module
00:14 mithos28: As star usually implies mostly the same thing but slightly different
00:15 dyoo: lewis1711: idiomatically, I make a separate function, and export that.  Example: https://github.com/dyoo/data-red-black/blob/ordered-set/data/red-black/ordered-set.rkt#L51
00:15 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b2garrx
00:16 Meldasu: Hello, I am looking for a little help with an assignment i have, not sure where else i would find people who even know what im talking about so if you know a better place i could ask let me know, but anyway I am supposed to "draw the Pda which accepts all strings in the set {x in {a,b}* | na(x) = nb(x)}" and the empty string ins in the language. anyone able to give me some direction or help?
00:16 dyoo: If I really want to disguise it as if it were the real constructor, I could rename it from 'new-ordered-set' to 'ordered-set', but usually I don't bother.  :)
00:16 mithos28: To really disguise it you need to use procedure-rename
00:17 Kaylin: pushdown automaton? /me so that's like a finite state machine with a stack?
00:17 Kaylin remembers vaguely.
00:17 dyoo: Meldasu: unfortunately, that's not a racket question; it's a theory-of-computation question, and most of us here probably don't have the background to help.  It's been a while since I've read Sipser.
00:18 Meldasu: do you maybe know an IRC where i could find help for this?
00:18 lewis1711: I did nfas and dfas in racket, not pdas though (I thought I'd do it in ruby, ran out of time, and failed the assignment :()
00:19 mithos28: na(x) = number of a's in x?
00:19 lewis1711: Meldasu: http://docs.racket-lang.org/unstable/Automata__Compiling_State_Machines.html#%28part._dfa%29 this may help (IIRC, pdas are an extenion of nfas)
00:19 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b8shvff
00:19 dyoo: Meldasu: no, sorry, dunno
00:20 dyoo: lewis1711: no, PDAs are more powerful. They get to use a stack.  NFAs don't.
00:20 Meldasu: okay, thank you for your help :]
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00:22 lewis1711: dyoo: yes I know that, but an NFA is a good starting point for one, isn't it? like I said I ran out of time :P the state machines thing in racket cant handle custom transition functions though
00:22 lewis1711: that I can see, so my link was useless
00:23 lewis1711: oh wait, it can
00:24 lewis1711: sort of :/
00:25 (quit) jao: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
00:28 dyoo: If the interpretation for na() and nb() is what mithos28 guessed, then I'm not even sure it can be processed by pushdown automata.  I can't think of a way to express what Meldasu's language is with a context free grammar, which is equivalent in power to pushdown automata.  Therefore:  I suspect it's not, but again I'm rusty with theory-of-computation, and I'd need to be able to use the pumping lemma for CFAs in anger to be positive.
00:28 dyoo: s/CFA/PDA
00:28 mithos28: pushdown automata can do it if my interpretion is correct
00:31 lewis1711: rudybot:  (require unstable/automata)
00:31 rudybot: lewis1711: your sandbox is ready
00:31 rudybot: lewis1711: error: default-load-handler: cannot open input file: "/mnt/racket-5.2.900.1/collects/unstable/automata.rkt" (No such file or directory; errno=2)
00:32 lewis1711: :(
00:35 didi: lewis1711: I just tried to make a grid game but I suck at it. :^(
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00:38 lewis1711: oh herp derp
00:38 lewis1711: rudybot:  (require unstable/automata/machine)
00:38 rudybot: lewis1711: Done.
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00:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/2YAUuQ
00:52 RacketCommitBot: racket/master f607a3b Neil Toronto: Added stress test: libmpfr C struct accessor vs. Racket struct accessor
00:52 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 769e8b4 Neil Toronto: Added `array->list-array'...
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01:07 sw2wolf: After `git clone https://github.com/plt/racket.git`, how can i make it up to date later ?
01:07 sw2wolf: quickly
01:07 mithos28: git pull
01:07 sw2wolf: thx
01:08 sw2wolf: i want to reinstall racket withouy using FreeBSD ports where i canot config its installation
01:09 sw2wolf: mithos28: how can i config racket to make it install quickly ?
01:09 mithos28: Why do you need it to install quickly? Isn't it a one time cost?
01:10 sw2wolf: i recall it takes VERY long to install racket from freesbd ports.
01:11 mithos28: I haven't had any issues on OS X, I don't know what the issue on freebsd is so I cannot say what you would need to change
01:11 mithos28: --disable-documentation will speed it up
01:11 sw2wolf: yes
01:11 mithos28: but at the loss of local documentation
01:12 sw2wolf: last time `raco setup ...` takes long time
01:12 mithos28: the docs are part of that step
01:13 sw2wolf: yes, i can see doc online
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01:17 sw2wolf: It is making now after `configure --prefix=$HOME/racket --disable-documentation` ...
01:25 lewis1711: sw2wolf: aren't freeBSD ports source code?
01:25 lewis1711: not binary distribution. if you install from the shell scripts on the racket site it should be quick
01:30 sw2wolf: lewis1711: freebsd port cannot config racket's option
01:31 sw2wolf: --disable-documentation makes it faster than before
01:31 sw2wolf: haha, make finish ! i will `make install` now
01:32 lewis1711: yes, but with FreeBSD ports you have to compile source code. Which is why it's slow. You can use pre-compiled racket
01:32 sw2wolf: there is no racket package
01:32 mithos28: lewis1711: Compiling racket from source is fast compared to compiling the racket libraries to bytecode
01:33 sw2wolf: it seems `make install` will take long time than `make`
01:34 sw2wolf: mithos28: you are right ! now it is `raco setup: ...`
01:34 lewis1711: mithos28: what do the install scripts do from the "downloads" section? never found those to be slow
01:35 mithos28: lewis1711: Those usually have the bytecode compiled
01:35 sw2wolf: lewis1711: maybe precompiler binary
01:35 mithos28: you notice this if you are compiling from head
01:36 mithos28: because remaking the racket binary is fast, but every library needs to be recompiled
01:38 sw2wolf: BTW, the module name i.e. "aaa/bbb" must have directory aaa/bbb in OS ?
01:38 sw2wolf: same as java
01:38 mithos28: sw2wolf: Only if you use the default module resolver
01:39 sw2wolf: then can i choose other module resolver ?
01:39 mithos28: You can write your own
01:40 sw2wolf: i think most racketer will use default one ?
01:40 mithos28: yes
01:40 sw2wolf: thxc
01:40 sw2wolf: i see
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01:57 lewis1711: is there a functional update funciton for lists? something like (update '(1 2 3) 2 add1) => '(1 2 4)
01:57 lewis1711: I know how to write a function myself, but why invent the wheel?
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02:53 lewis1711: maybe I shouldn't be using combinatorial methods for a functional that is essentially linear algebra, even if I am reducing the domain to discrete numbers
02:53 sw2wolf: Why "--dsable-documentation" it still `raco setup: rendering: /../.../*,scrbl` ?
02:54 lewis1711: whoops wrong channel
02:56 jonrafkind: sw2wolf, what about -D
02:57 sw2wolf: it should be "--disable-docs" when configuring racket ?
02:58 sw2wolf: jonrafkind: install racket
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02:58 jonrafkind: --disable-docs yea I guess
02:59 sw2wolf: it wastes my time now re-configure :(
03:00 jonrafkind: you can just do 'make plain-install && raco setup -D'
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03:01 sw2wolf: jonrafkind: thx, no docs will be fast
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03:23 lewis1711: so many algorithms are only provided in a horribly imperative way. which means I either have ugly code or waste time translating it.
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03:46 sw2wolf: How to understand this code snippet:
03:47 sw2wolf: (let ([var val])
03:47 sw2wolf: (case-lambda
03:47 sw2wolf: [() var]
03:47 sw2wolf: [(new-val) (set! var new-val)]))
03:47 mithos28: Its a box
03:47 sw2wolf: what's case-lambda ?
03:48 mithos28: a function that acts differently depending on the number of arguments
03:48 mithos28: ie it 'cases' off of the number of arguments
03:48 sw2wolf: the function is: (define* (make-fun-box val) (...)))
03:51 sw2wolf: then how to call make-fun-box ?
03:53 sw2wolf: there is only one argument val ?
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05:32 lewis1711: is there anything like "first" that doesn't throw an exception on an empty list?
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06:25 mye: lewis1711: was trying to translate some CL code to racket yesterday, ran into this as well. I'm not sure what the rationale behind this is.
06:25 mye: probably it forces you to properly handle cases
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07:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 6 new commits to master: http://git.io/Am9niA
07:58 RacketCommitBot: racket/master a6eb219 Matthew Flatt: avoid spurious arity mismatch in {s,n}boyer benchmarks
07:58 RacketCommitBot: racket/master ea79cc4 Matthew Flatt: benchmark noise...
07:58 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 4721a79 Matthew Flatt: define-logger: make `(define-logger X)' define `X-logger'
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10:55 jeapostrophe: asumu: what's left to make pfds work on p2?
10:55 jeapostrophe: i was going to start porting it today, but noticed that it all looks ready
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11:30 asumu: jeapostrophe: it should already work. I was going to revise some of the docs, but maybe I should just put it up and revise later.
11:31 jeapostrophe: +1 to that :)
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11:47 samth: jeapostrophe: what's the current plan for moving things from `collects` to planet2?
11:47 samth: besides sirmail?
11:47 jeapostrophe: samth: robby, matthew, and i think that we need the resolver w/ auto install before that is appropriate
11:48 jeapostrophe: after it is in place, i hope for a massive exodus
11:48 samth: jeapostrophe: i feel like the bigger hurdle is building the releases
11:49 jeapostrophe: i was just going to say that i think matthias, eli, and the others put a lot of stock into that
11:49 jeapostrophe: but eli seems to have a good idea
11:49 samth: sure, i understand
11:49 samth: i just think that even auto-installation is insufficient for, say, the 2htdp collection
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11:50 samth: on the other hand, there are some collections that could move out even now
11:50 samth: handin-server, eg
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11:50 jeapostrophe: ya, math, slideshow
11:50 jeapostrophe: i think there will be a bit where even though we could cut them (like 2htdp) we won't
11:50 samth: right
11:51 samth: i'd be fine with moving slideshow even with no new support (speaking as a heavy slideshow user)
11:51 samth: but there's a docs issue there
11:51 samth: asumu: ping
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11:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/tGSbsg
11:58 RacketCommitBot: racket/master f7d7bf0 Sam Tobin-Hochstadt: Increase some DrDr timeouts.
11:58 (part) RacketCommitBot
12:00 samth: jeapostrophe: are you working on fixing http://drdr.racket-lang.org/25863/collects/meta/check-dists.rkt
12:01 samth: jeapostrophe: also, do you know if this is fixable: http://drdr.racket-lang.org/25862/collects/tests/gracket/windowing.rktl ?
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12:12 jeapostrophe: samth: the second isn't fixable according to robby. we've tried many variations of X setups and WMs and it is just unreliable on X
12:13 jeapostrophe: samth: i hadn't noticed the first. i don't get why tests can't rely on meta, since neither is distributed
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13:02 samth: jeapostrophe: i don't get that either
13:02 samth: jeapostrophe: for the second one, can we just disable that test on DrDr?
13:03 jeapostrophe: I think that Robby wants it because it has had different errors before
13:03 jeapostrophe: I think we should change the test to use < .. < rather than =
13:03 jeapostrophe: because it is only ever a few values
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13:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/RbtLSQ
13:03 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 8fc0aed Sam Tobin-Hochstadt: Increase another timeout.
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13:03 samth: jeapostrophe: i don't mean the whole file, just that one bit of it
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13:08 jeapostrophe: ah, email robby maybe
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13:35 samth: jeapostrophe: also, this looks like a planet2 issue: http://drdr.racket-lang.org/25864/collects/tests/zo-path.rkt
13:36 nejucomo: In the same module I have: (begin-for-syntax (let (...) (lambda (a b c) (let ([a2 (match a [...] [(cons foo bar) (my-function foo bar)])]) ...)))
13:37 nejucomo: Oops, there's a (define func ...) wrapping the outer let (as an immediate child of begin-for-syntax).
13:37 nejucomo: Then in a macro I call (func ...), but I get "bar" is an unbound identifier in the call to my-function.
13:37 nejucomo: I can't see why.
13:41 stamourv: nejucomo: Can you paste the code somewhere?
13:42 nejucomo: Sure.
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13:45 nejucomo: Here's the output of tests showing the unbound identifier error: http://codepad.org/PuBMOJlP
13:46 nejucomo: Here's the revision of the module which has this bug: https://bitbucket.org/nejucomo/sappho-on-racket/src/941fd6d7becda6981f0432e22e844bac25eb759e/lib/sappho/lang/main.rkt?at=lexical-purity-context-app-syntax
13:46 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/a2aqw58
13:47 nejucomo: Oh...  Hm.  It says line 146 which is the *pattern* of a match, not the body...
13:48 nejucomo: Oh, no, it does say line 147, which is the body of the match clause.  I was looking at the wrong output.
13:50 nejucomo: It may be a bit involved, and I'm still a bit shaky on syntax transformers, templates, unquoting, etc...
13:52 stamourv: nejucomo: Have you tried `(require (for-syntax racket/match))' ?
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14:04 nejucomo: Ah, I'll try that.
14:04 nejucomo: -but without that, shouldn't match be an unbound identifier?
14:07 nejucomo: That didn't alter the error message.
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14:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FhA_7Q
14:09 RacketCommitBot: racket/master fff5212 Neil Toronto: Fixed infinite printing loop...
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14:14 nejucomo: Oh, that *did* fix it, I was requiring for-syntax the wrong module.
14:14 nejucomo: Thanks.
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14:20 neilv: is anyone other than plt people using planet2?
14:21 neilv: i just read the docs, and skimmed the email lists
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14:24 nejucomo: How can I prevent error messages from being truncated with ... ?
14:24 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
14:25 neilv: error-print-context-length ?  error-print-width ?
14:26 nejucomo: Thanks.
14:29 mye: neilv: is there a way to make the expected and result values in overeasy line up underneath each other? I find it to be very convenient in all the other test libs I use, e.g. when comparing string values or nested lists.
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14:31 neilv: mye: yes, i've been meaning to do that
14:32 neilv: mye: i'm also probably going to change it to use the new logging facility in 5.3.1, and get rid of that automagic changing the reporting format when you have a test-section
14:33 neilv: i got sidetracked with making planet1 easier to use, not knowing planet2 was imminent
14:35 mye: neilv: an api to plug in output formats is still a good idea IMO.
14:36 neilv: mye: yes. i want to work rough spots out of the default
14:36 neilv: first
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14:43 nejucomo: I have a syntax-case pattern which matches (X Xs ...) and in the expansion clause I call (my-function #'(X Xs ...)).
14:45 nejucomo: I have something like: (let [(my-function (lambda (xs) (for/list ([x (syntax-e xs)]) (mytransform x))))] ...)
14:45 nejucomo: -but the result of (syntax-e xs) looks like a cons of two syntaxes, instead of a list of syntaxes.
14:46 nejucomo: Basically I just want to define a syntax that has a repeated part where there must be at least one element, then I want to access each element of this repetition as a syntax object.
14:46 nejucomo: What's a good way to do this?
14:47 nejucomo tries passing #'(cons X (Xs ...)) to my-function...
14:50 neilv: syntax-e is too low-level.  try syntax->list with #'(X Xs ...)
15:03 asumu: jeapostrophe: I just got this error from raco pkg. Any idea what I did wrong? https://gist.github.com/4236031
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15:30 nejucomo: Could anyone point me to a simple example of syntax-parameterize in use?
15:31 nejucomo: I have (define-syntax-parameter foo ...) (begin-for-syntax (define-syntax foo-special ...)) (define-syntax bar ... (syntax-parameterize ([foo foo-special]) ...))
15:31 nejucomo: -but I get a syntax error on "foo-special".
15:31 jeapostrophe: asumu: it looks like there is an error in Matthew's tar reader for some tars produced by github
15:31 jonrafkind: dont put the foo-special in a begin-for-syntax
15:31 jeapostrophe: asumu: you should download the tar (or link to it) and send it to him
15:33 nejucomo: jonrafkind: If I don't, then I get: "expand: unbound identifier in module (in the transformer environment, which does not include the macro definition that is visible to run-time expressions) in: foo-special"
15:34 nejucomo: I've run into this error before and I don't understand it.  I think it's because I don't have a clear understanding of phases, perhaps?
15:34 nejucomo: Does "the macro definition that is visible to run-time expressions" mean that some macro transformations happen in phase 0?
15:34 jonrafkind: nejucomo, are you doing (define-syntax bar (lambda stx) #'(syntax-parameterize ([foo foo-special]) ...) ?
15:35 jonrafkind: that is are you returning a syntax object with the syntax-parameterize inside it?
15:35 nejucomo: No, the syntax-parameterize is not inside a syntax.
15:35 jonrafkind: it should be
15:36 nejucomo: Ok, I tried that and now I get: "expand: unbound identifier in module (in phase 1, transformer environment) in: foo-special"
15:36 nejucomo: What a minute, how are those two error messages different?
15:36 jonrafkind: ok can you paste a complte example
15:36 nejucomo: Isn't the "transformer environment" the same as "phase 1" ?
15:37 jonrafkind: yes
15:37 nejucomo: Sure, just a sec.
15:38 jonrafkind: oh wait the expr is a transformer expr
15:38 jonrafkind: ok i think you just dont want to bind foo-special as a define-syntax, just do (begin-for-syntax (define (foo-special stx) ...))
15:39 nejucomo: The language module is here: https://bitbucket.org/nejucomo/sappho-on-racket/src/2165c524bad02d3cd8a1b85b0998cb7b9689048e/lib/sappho/lang/main.rkt?at=lexical-purity-context-app-syntax
15:39 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/aza2uym
15:39 jonrafkind: because foo itself is already bound as a macro so you dont need to bind its value (what syntax-parameterize changes) to a macro too
15:39 nejucomo: -and I can pastebin the error output if you'd like.
15:40 jonrafkind: does it work now
15:40 nejucomo: Ok, that helps a bit.  Could you point me to how/where macros are implemented?  What does "define-syntax" do?
15:40 nejucomo tries.
15:40 nejucomo: My understanding of macros is getting in the way...
15:40 jonrafkind: ah good question!
15:40 nejucomo: Currently the foo-special is defined like: (define-syntax foo-special (syntax-rules ...))
15:40 jonrafkind: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/phases.html?q=phases#(part._.Phases_and_.Bindings)
15:41 jonrafkind: define-syntax creates a binding at phase 0 whose value lives in phase 1
15:41 jonrafkind: (begin-for-syntax ...) allows you to make bindings at phase 1
15:41 nejucomo: -but is syntax-rules a stand-alone macro or a keyword of (define-syntax) ?
15:41 jonrafkind: its a macro that is bound at phase 1
15:41 jonrafkind: he body of a define-syntax is a phase 1 expression
15:41 jonrafkind: so anything you execute there must be bound at phase 1
15:41 nejucomo: In the former case, I could just alter my definition from: (define-syntax foo-special (syntax-rules ...)) -to- (define foo-special (syntax-rules ...)) -right?
15:42 jonrafkind: although syntax-rules is actually provided at both phase 0 and phase 1 for some reason
15:42 jonrafkind: uhm arent those the same things
15:42 jonrafkind: oh wait
15:42 jonrafkind: define vs define-syntax
15:43 nejucomo: Ah... a "binding at phase 0 whose value lives in phase 1" is my first lead on understanding why phases confuse me so much...
15:43 jonrafkind: hm actaully that error doesnt make sense, both define and define-syntax produce a phase 0 binding
15:43 nejucomo: I had thought a binding and its value must live in the same phase.
15:43 jonrafkind: but define excepts its expression to also be at phase 0 while define-syntax uses phase 1
15:43 nejucomo: Is there any difference between define and define-syntax other than the phase of the value expression?
15:44 jonrafkind: well the expander treats things defined with define-syntax specially
15:44 jonrafkind: but other than that no
15:44 nejucomo attempts (printf "Thingy: ~V\n" (syntax-rules () [blah blah]))
15:45 jonrafkind: syntax-rules expands to (lambda (stx) ...)
15:45 jonrafkind: so it will just be a function
15:45 nejucomo: Ok, great, that's helps a bit.
15:47 nejucomo: Ok, so the *similarities* between define and define-syntax are their grammar, but the differences are that the former creates a value binding and the latter creates a transformer binding, and I'm still not sure about phases.
15:48 jonrafkind: right
15:48 nejucomo: -> (printf "Thingy: ~V\n" (syntax-rules () [x x]))
15:48 nejucomo: ; readline-input:50:23: syntax-rules: bad syntax in: (syntax-rules () (x x))
15:48 jonrafkind: you have to put parens around the pattern
15:48 jonrafkind: [(x) x])
15:48 nejucomo: Thanks!
15:49 nejucomo: Ok that clears up a bit of understanding there...
15:49 jonrafkind: i guess the docs use the term 'transformer binding' to mean a binding at phase 0 whose value lives in phase 1
15:50 jonrafkind: i would rather 'transformer' just be an alias for phase 1 though
15:50 nejucomo: So where I use syntax-parameterize, which is inside a template, the right-hand of the parameter is presently a name, and it needs to be bound to a transformer in phase 1, correct?
15:50 nejucomo rereads Phases and Bindings to understand how a binding can live in phase yet have a value in another phase.
15:50 nejucomo: Well, lunch first.
15:51 (nick) nejucomo -> neju|lunch
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15:53 jonrafkind: well that is the magic of define-syntax
15:53 jonrafkind: its the bridge between phases
15:54 jonrafkind: without it you couldnt communicate anything between phases
15:54 jonrafkind: http://pastebin.com/ysKjzkdx neju|lunch in case it hepls
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16:50 didi: Wow, `collects/xml/path.rkt' is match heavy.
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17:36 ozzloy: https://gist.github.com/4236873 how do i get a stack trace from rackunit test failures? (lines 57 through 70)
17:38 asumu: ozzloy: if you can catch the exception, you can use `error-display-handler` to print its stack trace.
17:38 asumu: You may need to put it in a test-case to catch the exception.
17:39 ozzloy: check failures are exceptions?
17:40 asumu: rudybot: eval (require rackunit) (define tc (test-case (check-equal? 2 3)))
17:40 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
17:40 rudybot: asumu: error: current-test-name: expected argument of type <string>; given: #<void>
17:40 asumu: rudybot: eval (require rackunit) (define tc (test-case "foo" (check-equal? 2 3)))
17:40 rudybot: asumu: ; stderr: "--------------------\nFAILURE\nname:       check-equal?\nlocation:   (#<undefined> 1 41 42 18)\nexpression: (check-equal? 2 3)\nactual:     2\nexpected:   3\n\nCheck failure\n--------------------\n--------------------\nfoo\nFAILURE\nname:       check-equal?\nlocation:   (#<undefined> 1 47 48 18)\nexpression: (check-equal? 2 3)\nactual:     2\nexpected:   3\n\nCheck failure\n--------------------\n"
17:40 asumu: Hmm.
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17:41 asumu: rudybot: (with-handlers ([exn:test:check? (lambda (e) (error-display-handler "foo" e))]) (test-case "foo" (check-equal? 2 3)))
17:41 rudybot: asumu: ; stderr: "--------------------\nfoo\nFAILURE\nname:       check-equal?\nlocation:   (#<undefined> 1 97 98 18)\nexpression: (check-equal? 2 3)\nactual:     2\nexpected:   3\n\nCheck failure\n--------------------\n"
17:42 ozzloy: i'll come back to this later
17:42 ozzloy: asumu, thanks for now
17:42 ozzloy: for the help
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17:44 asumu: It should be possible to catch the exception. I just don't remember how.
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18:00 asumu: ozzloy: here's a way to do it, but I'm not sure it'll give you much useful info: https://gist.github.com/4237247
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18:33 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/W1oRTw
18:33 RacketCommitBot: racket/master cde226c Burke Fetscher: redex-generator: correctly drop failure continuations
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18:41 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/UoB0dA
18:41 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 92c5025 Burke Fetscher: add some random generation tests
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19:09 soegaard: Anyone interested in testing this: https://gist.github.com/019d30cfed891b1899b9
19:09 soegaard: I have tested on Mountain Lion 64 bit.
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19:12 asumu: Don't have a convenient Mac here, but can try later.
19:13 soegaard: thanks
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20:07 nejucomo: Is there a way to generate a guaranteed unique value in terms of eq?
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20:14 Nisstyre: nejucomo: you could make a nullary struct I think
20:14 nejucomo: Hm.
20:16 Nisstyre: nejucomo: (struct unique ()) (define foo (unique)) (define bar (unique)) (eq? foo bar)
20:16 Nisstyre: that returns #f
20:16 Nisstyre: is that what you want?
20:16 nejucomo: Ok, thanks.
20:16 nejucomo: I think so.
20:17 nejucomo: I want to bind a name to a value which has 2 cases: it is either a unique default value which could never be returned from a given function, or it is a return value of the function.
20:17 nejucomo: -then I want to distinguish if the value is from the function or not.
20:17 Nisstyre: nejucomo: sounds like Maybe :P
20:18 Nisstyre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)#The_Maybe_monad
20:19 Nisstyre: this can be done in Racket quite easily
20:19 Nisstyre: although typed racket would provide a stronger framework to check correctness
20:20 nejucomo: Indeed.  Is there a Maybe in racket?
20:20 nejucomo: I could also track whether or not the function was called by a separate binding...  Maybe that's simplest.
20:21 nejucomo: I'm familiar with Maybe from haskell.  I think typed racket would be overkill at this point, I just want to solve a simple problem.
20:21 nejucomo: I realized there's already another distinction in another binding I can use, so no need for any of these more elaborate approaches.
20:21 Nisstyre: something like > (struct Maybe ()) > (struct Nothing Maybe ()) > (struct Just Maybe (a))
20:21 Nisstyre: would be simple and would work with match
20:23 Nisstyre: e.g. (match (foo 3)   [(Just a) a]   [(Nothing) "Nothing"])
20:24 Nisstyre: cool right?
20:28 nejucomo: Ah, that is cool!  I was imagining a variant syntax for racket, but I didn't realize that's already possible with struct inheritance.
20:28 nejucomo: rudybot: (struct Maybe ())
20:28 rudybot: nejucomo: your sandbox is ready
20:28 rudybot: nejucomo: Done.
20:28 nejucomo: rudybot: (struct Nothing Maybe ())
20:28 rudybot: nejucomo: Done.
20:28 nejucomo: rudybot: (struct Just Maybe (a))
20:28 rudybot: nejucomo: Done.
20:29 nejucomo: (Maybe? (Nothing))
20:29 nejucomo: rudybot: (Maybe? (Nothing))
20:29 rudybot: nejucomo: ; Value: #t
20:29 nejucomo: Ok, cool.
20:29 Nisstyre: yep, Racket is awesome
20:29 dyoo: nejucomo: http://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-reference/type-ref.html?q=option#(form._((lib._typed-racket/base-env/base-types..rkt)._.Option))
20:30 dyoo: I could have sworn I saw Maybe already there, but Option should have similar behavior
20:31 dyoo: With regard to making a unique value: I've often used cons to create a unique value
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20:31 dyoo: sorta like: (define unique-val (cons 'unique #f))
20:31 dyoo: and then just make sure I don't export it :)
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20:32 nejucomo: Ah, I wasn't sure if cons was guaranteed unique, because I noticed somewhere cons cells are immutable in racket.
20:32 nejucomo: -but I had thought of mcons.
20:32 nejucomo searches for docs on cons and mcons.
20:32 dyoo: they're still unique.  I hope!  Let me double check to make sure, but I'm fairly certain they're guaranteed to allocate unique values
20:33 dyoo: Yeah, the docs use the term "newly allocated" in http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/pairs.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._cons))
20:33 dyoo: so at least the docs back up that idea
20:33 dyoo will be back in a moment
20:33 nejucomo: Right, I just read "newly allocated".
20:34 nejucomo: I'm still tempted to use mcons just in case someday (cons) magically reuses memoized results.  ;-)
20:37 dyoo back
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20:39 dyoo: looking at the question more closely; another technique people occassionally do here is pass a success and fail function, to force the user to account for both possibilities
20:39 dyoo: a hybrid approach is something like how hash-ref deals with missing keys:
20:39 dyoo: let's see if rudybot is happy with me this time...
20:39 dyoo: rudybot: (define ht (make-hash))
20:39 rudybot: dyoo: your sandbox is ready
20:39 rudybot: dyoo: Done.
20:40 dyoo: rudybot: (hash-ref ht 'foobar (lambda () 'not-found))
20:40 rudybot: dyoo: ; Value: not-found
20:40 dyoo: It's just that hash-ref provides a default "failure function" that raises an exception.
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20:43 nejucomo: dyoo: There are three cases: success, fail, and no result.
20:44 dyoo: nejucomo: checking something...
20:45 nejucomo: Option looks ambiguous (I haven't read about typed racket yet) because #f is a valid result.
20:45 dyoo: nejucomo: there's actually a nice paper that talks about this. Dunno if you're interested: "Toward Leakage Containment"  ftp://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/scheme-repository/doc/pubs/iucstr346.ps.gz
20:45 nejucomo: Neat.
20:46 nejucomo: Thanks.
20:48 nejucomo: Actually I realized a continuation-style seems cleanest.
20:49 dyoo: I do like return values, of course.  :)  But maybe CPS style is appropriate for what you're doing.
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20:55 nejucomo: I may have spoken too soon.  ;-)  I'm still in that newbie phase where I try three different approaches to each small-scale issue.
20:55 nejucomo: I have a (struct S (a b c))  -where a b and c should either be #f or a procedure.
20:56 nejucomo: I thought maybe this would be a general pattern of "get a and call it with args or, if it is #f, do this other thing".
20:56 dyoo: yes, I've seen that pattern once or twice.  It shows up in make-do-sequence
20:56 nejucomo: But maybe I want a simpler: get a, or if it is #f, return this default.
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21:00 sw2wolf: I studied CL by hacking stumpwm before. now i want to study racket in which i found RWin. but RWin is just a prototype. Can you racketter tell me a more practical racket application(s) for me to study ?
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21:02 dyoo: sw2wolf: good question!  I'd just been poking at fairly middle-sized modules in PLaneT.  Do you already know about PLaneT?
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21:03 sw2wolf: dyoo: i heard of PLaneT same as QuickLisp in CL ?
21:03 dyoo: I believe so, at least from a quick google of the term "QuickLisp".  :)
21:03 dyoo: Here's the url:
21:03 dyoo: http://planet.racket-lang.org/
21:04 sw2wolf: then any practical PLT you recommend me to start ?
21:05 nejucomo: I'm used to (<exprs ...> . <expr>) in lisp-likes to mean there is a cons cell with <expr>'s value as the cdr.  It looks like that works in racket in the context of quote.
21:05 nejucomo: rudybot '(1 . (2))
21:05 nejucomo: ?
21:05 bremner: rudybot: init racket
21:05 rudybot: bremner: your sandbox is ready
21:05 bremner: rudybot: eval '(1 .(2))
21:05 rudybot: bremner: ; Value: (1 2)
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21:05 nejucomo: -but that syntax doesn't seem to mean what I think it means outside of quote, such as in normal procedure application:
21:06 dyoo: sw2wolf; thinking… well, I know that rudybot here is on github too, so maybe that might be interesting?  Let me see if I can find the github url...
21:06 nejucomo: rudybot (+ 1 . (2))
21:06 mithos28: nejucomo: The reader interprets it as a cons
21:06 mithos28: rudybot: (+ 1 . (2))
21:06 rudybot: mithos28: your sandbox is ready
21:06 rudybot: mithos28: ; Value: 3
21:06 dyoo: sw2wolf: https://github.com/offby1/rudybot
21:06 nejucomo: Does '.' get handled above the reader level?
21:06 mithos28: nejucomo: No
21:06 nejucomo: Hey wait a minute...
21:06 nejucomo glances at local repl...
21:06 sw2wolf: dyoo: thx
21:06 mithos28: you need the colon for rudybot
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21:07 dyoo: sw2wolf: it might also be worthwhile to ask the racket user's mailing list this question; would be interesting to see what else people propose
21:07 dyoo: I have my own projects, but they're sorta messy at the moment.. :)
21:07 nejucomo: Oh... heh...  nevermind.  I had a spurious quote in my local test.
21:07 sw2wolf: dyoo: good suggestion
21:07 dyoo: nejucomo: should be at the reader level.
21:07 nejucomo: -so in that case, . is kind of a simple replacement for apply, right?
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21:08 mithos28: nejucomo: Not really
21:08 nejucomo: In fact, it might be "leaner" than apply.
21:08 mithos28: it only works if the list is literal, and then you might as well not include the . and extra ()
21:09 nejucomo: mithos28: How is it different, neglecting keyword arguments (which I don't understand yet...)
21:09 nejucomo: mithos28: Oh, of course.  Ok.
21:09 nejucomo: -because (f x . xs) gets parsed as an improper list terminated by a symbol...
21:10 mithos28: right
21:10 nejucomo: Ok, back to the user's guide.
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21:29 Havvy: Does Typed Racket have Option[a] where a is another type?
21:29 mithos28: Havvy: Sorta
21:30 mithos28: rudybot: (: t (Option Number))
21:30 rudybot: mithos28: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: : in module: 'program
21:30 mithos28: rudybot: init typed/racket
21:30 rudybot: mithos28: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
21:30 mithos28: rudybot: (: t (Option Number))
21:30 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
21:30 mithos28: rudybot: (define t (or #f ))
21:30 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
21:31 Havvy: rudybot: t
21:31 rudybot: Havvy: say I have a list (#t '()) how do I append elements to '()? Do I have to create a new list at each append, or can I use something like set-cdr! ?
21:31 mithos28: It depends on what you want Option to mean,
21:31 mithos28: Havvy: You have a different interpreter session than me
21:32 Havvy: Oh.
21:32 Havvy: But overall, (Option MyType) works.
21:32 Havvy: ?
21:33 mithos28: Yes it is equivalent to (U #f MyType)
21:33 mithos28: Which means that (Option (Option MyType)) is the same as (Option MyType)
21:34 Havvy: So you use #f instead of 'none.
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22:14 nejucomo: Is there a convenient way to define a function that takes any number of positional arguments and keyword arguments?
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23:17 mithos28: nejucomo: make-keyword-procedure
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23:31 nejucomo: Thanks.  That seems more heavy handed than I had hoped, but that could do.
23:31 mithos28: nejucomo: What do you want to do?
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23:32 nejucomo: mithos28: I abandoned that plan.
23:34 nejucomo: What I wanted to do was write a procedure which takes a variable number of arguments, plus a keyword argument, then matched the positional args and called other procedures, passing along the keyword argument.
23:35 mithos28: ok, well if you want more help with what you are trying to do, just ask
23:40 nejucomo: Thanks!
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