00:00 dyoo: grettke: they expected me to know how to code the successor and predecessor functions for binary trees right off the bat, so they're definitely not dong the fizzbuzz
00:00 dyoo: doing the fizzbuzz question
00:05 dyoo: raphie: if macros are ok, then maybe something like this will help:
00:05 dyoo: (define-syntax-rule (capture-values foo)
00:05 dyoo: (call-with-values (lambda () foo) list))
00:06 dyoo: Then your expression can look like (apply values (append (capture-values foo) (list 'c)))
00:07 raphie: there's no value->list function?
00:07 raphie: er, values->list
00:07 dyoo: That's basically what the capture-values thing is doing
00:07 raphie: ahh, cool
00:08 dyoo: As far as I know, it's not built in because the situations where it'd be used is fairly limited.  Normally, call sites know exactly that they're getting some fixed number of values back.
00:09 raphie: all this is just so I can "cons" a value on
00:09 raphie: define-syntax-rule: too many forms in: (call-with-values (lambda () foo) list)
00:10 dyoo: too many forms?  Hmm… give me a sec.  Trying to figure out what that means.
00:11 dyoo: Let me make sure I didn't mistype that:
00:11 dyoo: (define-syntax-rule (capture-values e) (call-with-values (lambda () e) list))
00:12 raphie: also, this is odd: https://gist.github.com/8de475cf02642d3cecc4
00:13 dyoo: When you call a function, each argument needs to be a single value.  So the system's not happy when it seels that the second argument to add-v is a multiple-values thing
00:14 dyoo: There are architectural reasons why it has that limitation
00:14 SamB: what, like not being FORTH?
00:15 raphie: so is there a way to write this function? "vs" will always be a two-value values
00:16 dyoo: SamB: I haven't looked at how racket implements multiple values, but I suspect it's similar to that described in http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.48.3438
00:18 SamB wonders if it's the same reason GHC only allows unboxed tuples for return values
00:18 dyoo: To get multiple-value return to work efficiently, the language implementer needs to do a few tricks, or else all regular single-value function calls can take a hit.
00:19 raphie: huh
00:19 raphie: I'm writing a compiler targeting 0x10c :D
00:19 dyoo: ah, cool.  Notch's thing, right?
00:20 raphie: yeah, 16-bit CPU
00:21 SamB: (though GHC has the advantage of knowing which functions will return unboxed tuples in advance, since they can't be used to instantiate normal type variables ...)
00:25 SamB wishes he could configure a rational px:TeX pt ratio in his PDF viewer ...
00:25 SamB: (a *small* one, in fact)
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00:33 ozzloy: dyoo, hey!  i noticed a typo in brainfudge http://hashcollision.org/brainfudge/#(part._.Acknowledgements) "many of which have are in the main" should probably be "man of which are in the main"
00:34 dyoo: yikes!  Thank you… give me a second
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00:35 ozzloy: also i have a question about langauge.rkt http://hashcollision.org/brainfudge/#(part._.Lisping_a_language) when you define current-state (make-parameter (new-state))  .. does that actually need to be (new-state)?  can't it just be #f or something?
00:36 ozzloy: i tried it with that and it worked, but i don't know what to check
00:36 ozzloy: hello2.rkt worked
00:36 dyoo: ozzloy: yeah, that would have worked fine
00:36 dyoo: it gets initialized in my-module-begin anyway
00:36 ozzloy: yeah, that's what i thought
00:37 dyoo: I just wanted to make it clear what the expected type was going to be
00:37 ozzloy: but i didn't know if maybe somehow there's a way that wouldn't happen
00:37 ozzloy: ah
00:37 dyoo: Thanks for the typo correction: should be pushed up now
00:37 ozzloy: you're welcome
00:37 ozzloy: that was fast
00:38 dyoo: Having a makefile as part of the source code makes this sort of stuff easy to build.  :)
00:38 ozzloy: make file with targets to publish updates?
00:39 dyoo: Oh, that's a good idea.  No, I didn't go that far.
00:39 ozzloy: `make publish`?
00:39 dyoo: It wouldn't be too hard: I'd just add something like 'scp * hashcollision.org:webapps/htdocs/brainfudge'; that would do the trick...
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00:40 ozzloy: so tempting!
00:40 ozzloy: dooo it
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00:41 ozzloy: i haven't read the optimization yet, but i skimmed and noticed you abandone parameterized state anyways
00:41 ozzloy: abandon*
00:41 dyoo: https://github.com/dyoo/brainfudge/commit/a31c8c0af2c105c547cf5446798484fa1dd2d54a
00:41 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/cocbpre
00:41 ozzloy: haha, nice
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00:42 dyoo: I aim to misbehave… Wait, no, I mean: I aim to please.  :)
00:42 ozzloy: oh, i didn't know the source was up somewhere
00:43 ozzloy: i would have made a pull request instead of waiting till i saw you in here or maybe tracking down your email
00:43 ozzloy: hey, that's me in the commit message!
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06:33 lewis1711: time to try this macro again :) http://pastebin.com/YKV7rJQ0 can someone explain why $ might be unbound here?
06:33 lewis1711: (error message in paste)
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06:42 soegaard: lewis1711: Can you make a simpler exampler showing the same behaviour?
06:44 lewis1711: soegaard: no. (@$ foo) is meant to mean "self.foo". I can offer the rest of the macros involved in that examples though, but when I post them all at once people get distracted.
06:45 (part) pnpuff
06:50 soegaard: lewis1711: I meant something like this: http://pastebin.com/ruBs7u73
06:54 soegaard: Is $ bound to anyhing outside this example?
06:54 soegaard: Depending on context, this might work:
06:54 soegaard: (with-syntax ([$ (syntax-local-introduce (syntax-local-get-shadower #'$))]) #'(@ $ method args ...))
06:57 lewis1711: soegaard: http://pastebin.com/XjPrT0Ak does that shed any light? and will try what you suggested
06:59 lewis1711: soegaard: woah that worked. thanks
06:59 lewis1711: dunno how it works but it does
06:59 soegaard: http://blog.scheme.dk/2006/05/how-to-write-unhygienic-macro.html
07:00 soegaard: But I am not sure it is the correct solution though. It might be better to use a syntax-parameter.
07:07 lewis1711: maybe. I think I'm all macro'd out now. this is the hardest programming thing I've tried to learn since..  actually probably the hardest
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07:10 soegaard: It takes a bit of experimenting to get it.
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10:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/lJN1WQ
10:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master d0ff14b Matthew Flatt: fix main docs to include installation-specific links/packages
10:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 3d38d84 Matthew Flatt: planet2: remove obsolete note in docs and help
10:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 545191f Matthew Flatt: guide and reference: fix typos related to "evaluation context"
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10:20 lewis1711: I don't suppose there's anyway into tricking dr. racket to indent user macros like baked in macros?
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10:35 pd520: hi
10:36 lewis1711: hello
10:38 pd520: why do i see disorder code in xchat2
10:38 pd520: ?
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10:39 bremner: pd520: is your question related to racket somehow?
10:40 pd520: no,sorry
10:40 pd520: but,I would like to learn racket from IRC
10:43 bremner: I don't remember much about xchat. I guess you can probably get better xchat help on an xchat channel.
10:44 pd520: OK,thank you
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11:13 soegaard: lewis1711: In preferences: choose "Editing" (the third tab) and add your macro
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11:25 soegaard: https://gist.github.com/4189510
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11:45 soegaard: http://imgur.com/nuCQd
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15:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/8zeDUQ
15:44 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9f72eb3 Robby Findler: fix query-aspell so that it returns an empty list when aspell isn't working
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16:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/_GgHhw
16:32 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 325600b Robby Findler: disable the aspell preference a little more agressively in case someone...
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17:36 mye: ugh, is auto indent for scribble in drracket really that bad? It moves all content after a @defproc to the column where the { starts
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19:47 lewis1711: is there a way to get the size of a rakcet structs? like in bytes?
19:51 asumu: lewis1711: what would you do with that information?
19:52 lewis1711: asumu: decide whether this part of the project should be done in C or not. have an educated guess on the cost of rackets serializable structs VS the size of them
19:53 asumu: (also, I think the answer is no. After all, if programs started depending on that, the struct representation couldn't change)
19:56 lewis1711: hmm. I guess I'll just try it in racket and if the memory usage is absurdly high will do it in C. from what I can see structs are reference values anyway so it may not be too bad
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20:35 dyoo: lewis1711: a struct instance is about the size of the type record plus as many pointers as there are fields.  See the beginning of scheme_make_struct_instance https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/src/racket/src/struct.c#L2134
20:36 dyoo: so it's about what you'd expect from a struct; does that help?
20:41 lewis1711: dyoo: ah yes, that seems more than reasonable. Serializability trumps size in this case :)
20:42 dyoo: It does help that Racket's structures are fairly easy to serialize.  :)
20:45 dyoo: lewis1711: there are three kinds of indentation that DrRacket knows how to do (begin-like, define-like, lambda-like).  You can customize which rule a user macro should use by going into Preferences/Editing/Indenting, and add the macro's name there.  Unfortunately, this is a personal editor thing, and not tied to the definition of the macro.
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20:48 dyoo: jeapostrophe, if I wanted to look into video game stuff in Racket, do you have recommendations on what I can look at?
20:49 jeapostrophe: dyoo: my get-bonus repository is my latest work
20:49 jeapostrophe: to run it, it requires some copyrighted material, that I could email you
20:49 dyoo: Ok, I see it.  https://github.com/get-bonus/get-bonus, right?
20:50 jeapostrophe: yes
20:50 jeapostrophe: games/maze
20:50 jeapostrophe: is the most complicated one
20:50 jeapostrophe: i'm working on a powerful engine before doing more interesting games
20:50 lewis1711: dyoo: ahh that makes things less ugly
20:50 jeapostrophe: i just re-did the rendering engine to use modern shaders and now it is very very fast
20:50 jeapostrophe: but less algebraic
20:51 jeapostrophe: (if you look at the history there is a better version of my 2d opengl planet package)
20:52 dyoo: Ok, will take a look.  Unfortunately, I never could get Jon Rafkind's allegro bindings to work on my mac :(  So I'm just looking.
20:52 lewis1711: I dunno if anyone is into roguelike games but there's libtcod bindings
20:52 jeapostrophe: lewis1711: i have a "rl" repo on github, which is a roguelike engine
20:53 dyoo: lewis1711: good god, it has color.  :)
20:53 jeapostrophe: (and example game... which is a maze)
20:53 dyoo: (looking at http://doryen.eptalys.net/data/libtcod-projects/pyro_003-full.jpg)
20:53 jeapostrophe: dyoo: lemme know if you have any questions about it. obvs theres no documentation
20:53 lewis1711: yeah the guy who wrote it is totally crazy with his 2d text graphics. great dude
20:53 lewis1711: jeapostrophe: interesting, I'll check it out
20:54 jeapostrophe: DoomRL is my favourite 2d text graphic w/ color game
20:54 lewis1711: jeapostrophe: where might it be?
20:54 jeapostrophe: google "doomrl"... the site is on chaosforge.org i think
20:55 lewis1711: no, your lib
20:55 jeapostrophe: oh
20:55 lewis1711: I've played doom rl :)
20:55 jeapostrophe: github.com/jeapostrophe/rl
20:56 lewis1711: huh, interesting wasn't expecting full on class hierarchies
20:57 jeapostrophe: ya, i've explored many different ideas on organizing games
20:57 jeapostrophe: my current system... domain-specific operating systems with functional ipc... is my favourite
20:58 lewis1711: part of the reason why I've been spending this time with macros is to try prototype objects for games
20:58 lewis1711: I see you too have implemented your own matrix lib LOL
20:59 jeapostrophe: if you look at https://github.com/jeapostrophe/exp/blob/master/foo/
20:59 jeapostrophe: you can see my functional prototype object system
20:59 jeapostrophe: it's very nice
21:01 lewis1711: yours sorta looks like javascript
21:01 lewis1711: I copied the syntax of neilws protobj thing a lot. and also lua and self
21:01 lewis1711: so, are these like rites of passage for racket programmers? 1. write a small matrix lib. 2. develop an object system
21:02 jeapostrophe: maybe... i've been working in racket for a LONG time, like 11 years now
21:02 jeapostrophe: so i've had a lot of time to write lots of weird stuff
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21:04 nejucomo: How can I get the path of the current executable?
21:05 lewis1711: http://pastebin.com/SBmKVpcZ here's what mine ended up looking like
21:05 nejucomo: -or more cleanly, I want to find files relative to a test driver, then load them and test their resulting expressions.
21:06 dyoo: nejucomo: just checking: why are you looking for the path of the current executable?
21:06 jeapostrophe: nejucomo: look at find-executable-path in the docs or find-system-path
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21:07 jeapostrophe: lewis1711: i've never used mine for anything interesting, but i made a point to make it functional. yours looks quite cute
21:07 dyoo: The reason I ask is because a common use case is to mimic Python's if __name__ == 'main' idiom, but Racket provides a different way to do it with http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/Module_Syntax.html#(part._main-and-test).  So more information on why you're looking for current executable would be helpful.
21:08 dyoo: nejucomo: oh, just saw the rest of your message.  Do you already know about racket/runtime-path?
21:08 dyoo: nejucomo: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Filesystem.html#(mod-path._racket/runtime-path)
21:09 lewis1711: jeapostrophe: mines functional unless you use "!" ;) yeah, I hear that sentiment a lot. "made an object system in LISP, never used it". honestly my main impoetus was that I find rackets class system bewildering and verbose
21:09 jeapostrophe: i agree, i dislike the java-style class system in racket as well
21:09 jeapostrophe: but it's definitely nice re: java
21:09 dyoo: nejucomo: your test driver can refer to the files relative to its own directory by using racket/runtime-path, so that the paths are robust against current-directory.
21:10 jeapostrophe: i just don't like classes very much
21:10 lewis1711: that's not high praise! :(
21:10 nejucomo: dyoo: Oh, I *did* want to emulate python's "main hook" pattern, so that's handy.
21:10 nejucomo looks up runtime-path
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21:11 lewis1711: jeapostrophe: I don't have a huge problem with classes, but I'd expect a racket object system to be more like smalltalk or ruby than java. there's also that swindle thing that looks interesting
21:11 Fare: looking for speakers for the Boston Lisp Meeting in 2013
21:11 nejucomo: dyoo: Excellent.  That's just what I want.
21:11 Fare: Haven't seen much Racket guys lately.
21:11 dyoo: nejucomo: awesome; glad to help!
21:12 Fare: lewis1711, if you're interested in object systems...
21:12 jeapostrophe: lewis1711: Racket's class systems is very consciously designed as Java + first-class classes + mixins as opposed to being inspired by CLOS
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21:12 Fare: I believe the Racket guys want something that is powerful like swindle, but with a better scoping and staging story than "modify global data structures"
21:12 lewis1711: Fare: I am. I am quite a long way from Boston though, and I never even finished undergrad so I'd make a poor speaker :)
21:13 lewis1711: swindle still seems to work
21:13 jeapostrophe: Fare: i'd agree with that :)
21:13 Fare: it works, but it's too much like CLOS, and not enough like Racket.
21:13 nejucomo: lewis1711: I'm not sure finishing undergrad correlates to being a good speaker in programming language topics.  ;-)
21:14 Fare: on the other hand, it has a lot of cool CLOS features that the racket class system is lacking.
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21:14 lewis1711: nejucomo: LOL perhaps not. being able to write non-trivial macros without help from people here might though :D
21:14 lewis1711: ...speaking of which
21:15 lewis1711: http://pastebin.com/ayrekVm2 how could one write the second macro in terms of the first macro?
21:15 Fare: jeapostrophe, are you coming to .MA any time soon?
21:16 jeapostrophe: Fare: i'll be there again in July. since baby #3 just came, we won't be traveling for a while
21:16 lewis1711: congrats
21:16 Fare: I can understand that -- CONGRATULATIONS, btw!
21:18 jeapostrophe: ya, she was born on 10/24 (i.e. 2^10) :)
21:18 Fare: :)
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21:20 eli: jeapostrophe: I think that selling it as "Java + <stuff>" is a very misleading, since that stuff is pretty important.
21:20 Fare: eli! How are you?
21:20 eli: Also "mixins" is not a good term, since CLOS has them too, except that in the Racket system they're a byproduct of first-class class values.
21:20 jeapostrophe: eli: nevertheless it was DESIGNED as "make Java" and then stuff started getting added
21:20 jeapostrophe: that's all I meant
21:21 eli: Fare: Meh.
21:21 eli: jeapostrophe: I think that first-class classes were there since the beginning (at least since I started using it, around 1998), and that's big enough to be far from Java...
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21:27 lewis1711: can't mixins be easily modelled with multiple inheritance? IE just inherit from one fully fledged class, and one class that's all just methods
21:28 asumu: lewis1711: depends. Racket's mixins are first-class and can compose at run-time.
21:28 asumu: So you couldn't do that in, say, C++ even with MI.
21:29 lewis1711: by compose at run time, you mean add them to a class at run time?
21:30 Fare: asumu: yeah, they are more first-class mixing than mixins
21:30 Fare: or first-class extension.
21:30 Fare: lewis1711, pure functional style
21:31 lewis1711: I do not understand this
21:32 lewis1711: I am familiarish with rubys object system, so i am not horribly crippled by java-vision
21:32 Fare: you don't modify a class in-place, you create a new, extended class
21:32 Fare: or course, you can re-bind a variable to the new extended class value.
21:32 lewis1711: what benefit is doing that at run time?
21:33 Fare: one man's runtime is another man's compiletime.
21:33 asumu: DrRacket plugins, for example, can compose into the classes that control its main window or editor.
21:33 lewis1711: I never thought about classes that way
21:34 lewis1711: in terms of composing them at least
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21:44 nejucomo: Hm...  Earlier dyoo pointed me to http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/Module_Syntax.html#(part._main-and-test)
21:44 nejucomo: -but my debian package of racket doesn't have that section and doesn't recognize (module* ...).
21:44 nejucomo: Is v5.2.1 old?
21:46 Fare: get git
21:49 lewis1711: nejucomo: yeah 5.3.1 is the latest
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21:58 nejucomo: Is there a (path? . -> . string?) function?
21:59 nejucomo: Better yet, is there a web search tool like hoogle where the queries can include contracts?
21:59 lewis1711: you surely mean (-> path? string?) :(
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22:00 nejucomo: lewis1711: See http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/contract-func.html#%28part._.Styles_of_-_%29
22:00 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ctav56w
22:00 bremner: nejucomo: 5.3.1 is in Debian unstable
22:01 nejucomo: bremner: Thanks.
22:01 bremner: welcome
22:01 nejucomo: Off to dinner.  Thanks for chatting, fellow racketeers.
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