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00:56 SrPx: Can I make hashes work as procedures that receive a key and returns the value?
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01:05 SamB_MacG5 suddenly realizes that displaying a statusbar icon when garbage collecting is probably rather tricky...
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01:14 asumu: SrPx: do you want to make the built-in hashes do this?
01:14 asumu: You can certainly build your own hash datatype that can act as a procedure. See prop:procedure.
01:14 SrPx: asumu: fine with making my own datatype, but what do you mean with 'see prop:procedure'?
01:15 neilv: type "prop:procedure" into the racket documentation search feature
01:19 SrPx: neilv: asumu ok thanks
01:21 asumu: neilv: BTW, get-ipvr-addrs works for me on Debian anyway. (you've probably tested there already though)
01:22 asumu: *ipv4
01:22 neilv: asumu: thanks
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01:27 asumu: I think SO just broke. I see 0 posts here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/racket
01:30 neilv: asumu: works for me
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01:32 asumu: Hmm, odd, still broken for me. *shrug*
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01:33 asumu: In other news, I didn't know "foo_bar" identifier style was called snake case.
01:33 jonrafkind: where did you hear that
01:34 jonrafkind: im guessing the name was invented after camel case
01:34 jonrafkind: since likely before snake case was just what people did so it didnt need a name
01:35 asumu: I saw it in a random tweet. And yes, it's likely a retroactive name.
01:35 neilv: retronym
01:36 neilv: i have never heard of "snake case" before. i suspect someone made it up relatively recently
01:37 asumu: There is a Wikipedia article on it, but it's not very good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_case
01:37 neilv: snakes have lots of negative associations, and negative associations could have been intended
01:38 jonrafkind: snakes on a variable!
01:38 neilv: monkey-fighting snakes
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03:33 SrPx: Can I use every Racket feature with Whalesong? That is, can I download libraries, write any kind of code, etc, and just compile it to js?
03:38 neilv: SrPx: i don't think so
03:38 neilv: SrPx: dyoo can answer whalesong questions when he returns
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03:39 SrPx: ok!
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03:54 SrPx: Wow WhaleSong is huge. I can't wait for dyoo to log in
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03:54 Haffe: This looks cool.
03:55 Haffe: So now I can use racket to write webapps?
03:55 SrPx: Maybe, but it does not seems very complete
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12:26 SamB_MacG5: hmm, there isn't a way to focus macro stepping on a specific expression, is there?
12:26 mithos28: SamB_MacG5: not that I know of
12:26 mithos28: I would like that feature
12:26 SamB_MacG5 tries to imagine how it could work
12:28 SamB_MacG5: I guess it wouldn't be any easier to do for only user-level syntactically top-level s-expressions ...
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12:28 SamB_MacG5: because of the implicit `module' form
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12:29 SrPx: Nobody using Whalesong?
12:29 SamB_MacG5: is it relaxing?
12:30 mithos28: SrPx: I don't but I might be able to answer a question about it.
12:30 SamB_MacG5 wonders why make-search.rkt doesn't use json
12:32 SrPx: I'm new to racket so I don't understand it itself quite well, but my question is what exactly is the scope of Whalesong? That is, how much of a subset of Racket it is? A small subset? Or does it have almost everything Racket has? Can I use Racket libs from Whalesong? Or for example, from a link on Racket's site, there's this:     #lang slideshow I guess this is like an import statement, right? Would this work in Whalesong? (circle), (squa
12:32 mithos28: The plan for whalesong is for it to be all of racket
12:32 mithos28: it is not currently there
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12:33 mithos28: http://hashcollision.org/whalesong/#(part._.Making__html_files_with_.Whalesong)
12:34 (quit) mye_: Quit: mye_
12:34 mithos28: all your programs currently need to be in the (planet dyoo/whalesong) library
12:34 mithos28: as in starting with #lang planet dyoo/whalesong
12:36 SrPx: I read that but I don't know what that means
12:36 (quit) mye: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
12:37 SrPx: What is #lang planet dyoo/whalesong? Is it like a subset of racket's base functions such as define and let?
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12:37 SrPx: Where can I see a list of those functions? And of Racket's base functions too?
12:37 mithos28: It is mostly a subset, plus stuff to handle js and the dom
12:38 mithos28: The extra stuff is on that page
12:38 mithos28: For racket/base see http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/index.html?q=racket/base
12:39 mithos28: The things that are not supported you will likely not run into
12:39 SrPx: "The racket/base library is much smaller than the racket library and will typically load faster."
12:39 SrPx: So whalesong is a subset of racket/base
12:40 SrPx: So those racket/bool, racket/bytes, racket/class, racket/cmdline, racket/contract, racket/dict, racket/file, racket/function, racket/future, racket/include, racket/list, racket/local, racket/match, racket/math, racket/path, racket/place, racket/port, racket/pretty, racket/promise, racket/sequence, racket/set, racket/shared, racket/stream, racket/string, racket/system, racket/tcp, racket/udp, racket/unit, and racket/vector.
12:40 mithos28: Like I said, not exactly
12:40 SrPx: are obviously out
12:40 SrPx: I mean, a subset + some things
12:40 mithos28: Some of the stuff in those might be included
12:40 SrPx: Also is not there a list of functions on racket/base and so on?
12:41 SamB_MacG5: is there a way to find out what all exports a particular thing?
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12:41 mithos28: SamB_MacG5: Yes in dr, turn on check syntax and right click and go to definition
12:42 SamB_MacG5: mithos28: note the "all"
12:42 SamB_MacG5: we can skip the halting problem, though; I just mean obvious re-exports
12:42 mithos28: I thought you were being coloquial, what do you mean by 'what all'
12:42 SamB_MacG5: all the modules that export the thing
12:43 mithos28: No, because that would require a knowledge of all modules
12:43 mithos28: for a given set of modules you could find what exports stuff
12:43 SamB_MacG5: okay, all the modules in the <collects> dir, then
12:44 mithos28: rudybot: doc module->exports
12:44 rudybot: mithos28: your sandbox is ready
12:44 rudybot: mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Module_Names_and_Loading.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._module-~3eexports))
12:44 mithos28: So possible, not implemented as far as I know
12:45 mithos28: SrPx: Most things from the teaching languages will be available
12:45 SrPx: Macros, readers are available?
12:45 (quit) mye__: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
12:45 mithos28: SrPx: Everything is available at phase1 and above
12:45 SrPx: phasel?
12:45 mithos28: Macro level
12:46 SamB_MacG5: rudybot: (quote-module-name)
12:46 rudybot: SamB_MacG5: your sandbox is ready
12:46 rudybot: SamB_MacG5: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: quote-module-name in module: 'program
12:46 SrPx: Sorry, really, but what do you mean? "macro level" ? What?
12:46 SamB_MacG5: rudybot: (require syntax/location)
12:46 rudybot: SamB_MacG5: Done.
12:46 SamB_MacG5: rudybot: (quote-module-name)
12:46 rudybot: SamB_MacG5: ; Value: program
12:46 SamB_MacG5: rudybot: (quote-module-path)
12:47 rudybot: SamB_MacG5: ; Value: (quote program)
12:47 mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/phases.html?q=phase-level
12:47 SamB_MacG5 still doesn't really understand the difference between those two ...
12:47 mithos28: Macros are evaluated entirely during 'compilation'
12:47 mithos28: So for whalesong that is on your machine before generating the js
12:48 SamB_MacG5: rudybot: (quote-source-file)
12:48 rudybot: SamB_MacG5: ; Value: #<undefined>
12:48 mithos28: Whalesong takes the bytecode and turns it into js
12:48 SrPx: Oh
12:48 SrPx: Interesting!
12:49 SrPx: Hmm well
12:50 SrPx: So is there a full reference of Whalesong's functions? The additional js and dom handles you mentioned?
12:50 mithos28: the added functions are here: http://hashcollision.org/whalesong/
12:51 mithos28: And a lot of stuff from racket/base or racket should just work
12:51 mithos28: say string-append
12:51 mithos28: or map or fold
12:54 SamB_MacG5: hmm, so the docs for `quote-module-name' say: To produce a name suitable for use in printed messages, apply path->relative-string/library when the result is a path.
12:54 SamB_MacG5: is there a nice point-free way to implement that?
12:55 mithos28: SamB_MacG5: racket's standard libraries don't have a lot of pointfree helpers
12:56 SamB_MacG5 is relieved that point-free is in the vocabulary in these parts, at least ;-)
12:56 mithos28: I find that point free is hard to read, but if you have static types and there is only one real way to implement something then its fine
12:56 SrPx: mithos28: oh everything added is there? OK
12:56 SrPx: thanks
12:57 SrPx: mithos28: is this http://docs.racket-lang.org/draw/overview.html#%28part._.Lines_and_.Simple_.Shapes%29 available?
12:57 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/9ufg4cf
12:57 SrPx: it is a racket module right
12:58 mithos28: I'm not sure but I know that world/universe should be available
12:58 SamB_MacG5: a function that took a list of predicates / transformer pairs, and applied the first transformer whose predicate returned true, would certainly be handy here ;-)
12:58 SrPx: Sory, world/universe?
12:58 mithos28: one sec trying to find a link
13:00 mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/teachpack/2htdpuniverse.html?q=world&q=universe
13:00 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/9glwqtx
13:00 SamB_MacG5: oh well, I guess it's not terribly likely that a given instance of (quote-module-name) or (quote-module-path) in a file will suddenly stop returning a path ...
13:00 mithos28: http://hashcollision.org/whalesong/#(part._.The_web-world_.A.P.I)
13:03 SamB_MacG5 decides to use (quote-module-path), since the documentation for that actually has a link for the term "module path", whereas the other doesn't have a link for "module name"
13:03 mithos28: SamB_MacG5: File a bug saying that the distinction between the two is not evident from the docs
13:06 SamB_MacG5: rudybot: help doc
13:06 rudybot: SamB_MacG5: doc <id>: find documentation for a binding
13:06 SamB_MacG5: rudybot: doc quote-module-path
13:06 rudybot: SamB_MacG5: http://docs.racket-lang.org/syntax/Source_Locations.html#(form._((lib._syntax%2Flocation..rkt)._quote-module-path))
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13:11 SrPx: mithos28: thank you !
13:12 SrPx: I have to go now, but to put it short I can perfectly develop sites and webapps with Racket it seems, right?
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13:24 SamB_MacG5: yay, I have succeeded in adding a header to plt-index.js saying what generates it!
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13:41 jonrafkind: images/scribblings/images.scrbl breaks the build
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14:24 samth: jonrafkind: we're aware of this
14:25 jonrafkind: are you part of the borg
14:26 offby1: rudybot: leaf
14:26 rudybot: *offby1: yeah heh i'd love an 80MP leaf bac
14:26 offby1: rudybot: recovery
14:26 rudybot: *offby1: People always say that goto leads to spaghetti code. The only things I ever see it used for are state machines, error recovery and breaking out of multiple nested loops.
14:26 offby1: cky: eli helped immensely with rudybot's "eval"
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14:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/n8IRfg
14:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Improve type specifications for bitmap handling functions. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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14:37 samth: jonrafkind: no, i'm part of the set of people who get email when i break the build :)
14:37 samth: but it's now unbroken
14:37 jonrafkind: do you get the launchpad failure emails still?
14:41 samth: yes
14:41 samth: but i ignore them
14:41 samth: the relevant email is from drdr
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14:46 mye_: eq? is weird. Is there a (case..) with equal? Or is this called match?
14:53 samth: mye_: `case` uses `eqv?`, which is very similar to eq?
14:53 samth: (they differ only on some numbers0
14:53 samth: )
14:54 offby1: welcome to lisp
14:54 samth: but if you want case with equal? (I assume for strings etc) then I'd use match
14:59 mye_: (case "foo" [("foo") #t]) works because eqv? compares the string *objects* which are ... actually saved only once, eg the same object?
15:00 mye_: is that what is called interning?
15:01 (quit) lmg_: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
15:02 mye_: ok interning is already done by the reader
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15:13 mye_: Function whose return value(s) depend on parameters are not actually functions (in the functional programming sense) anymore right?
15:17 jonrafkind: why bother to make such a disctinction
15:21 mye_: jonrafkind, I just wrote a couple of functions that have no arguments and operate only on (current-input-port). I wondered if that is bad design, e.g. writing tests is harder, but it's so convienient right now :-)
15:22 jonrafkind: well generally its better not to rely on parameters but sometimes they are make life easy
15:22 jonrafkind: i mean for tests you can obviously just reparameterize the current-input-port
15:23 mye_: I guess my problem is writing functions dealing with streams, I'm trying to find the right pattern so only a few functions deal with them
15:23 mye_: all the other ones should just get fixed size data.
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15:59 eli: mye__: you said that you had some messages to the list moderated?
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16:09 cky: offby1: I'll probably be getting lots of help from eli, then. ;-)
16:10 cky: offby1: I have one week to implement the "TBA" that's listed in my speaking slot for RacketCon. :-P
16:11 jonrafkind: talk about python
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16:17 cky: jonrafkind: Lol.
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16:23 neilv: i was about to release a sudo library, but apparently the example i used in documentation (from xkcd's sudo cartoon) is problematic
16:23 neilv: http://xkcd.com/149/
16:27 jamessan: what's problematic about that?
16:29 neilv: reportedly, it's used widely online as a sexist put-down
16:29 (quit) jonrafkind: Read error: Operation timed out
16:29 jamessan: huh
16:40 samth: neilv: that's very depressing
16:41 samth: since that's the best xkcd of all time
16:45 eli +1's samth
16:45 eli: I didn't see it before.
16:45 offby1: how is that possible!
16:45 eli: neilv: What's sexist about it?  The fact that a guy is making another guy make a sandwich?
16:46 samth: eli: there's nothing wrong with the comic
16:46 samth: i think people use the "sudo make me a sandwich" line
16:47 offby1: neilv: a while ago someone pasted "http://xkcd.com/400/" into the channel, but nobody laughed.  I guess some people just cannot tell a joke.
16:47 jamessan: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/make-me-a-sandwich
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17:03 eli: jamessan: That was useful.
17:03 eli: So it's the term itself that existed as a sexist thing.
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17:20 mye_: eli, I registered the address again and my last message got through alright. Before that I had sent three messages and got the "in moderation mail" but I think mailman actually sends the email directly to me again, so I wasn't sure if the list ever received them
17:20 neilv: do i not specify a default value in a scribble defparam?
17:22 mye_: I have a theory that when google changed the address from @googlemail.com to @gmail.com I still received the messages to the list but mailman wouldn't recognize I was still subscribed.
17:30 eli: mye_: About the address, yes, mailman works based on whatever it sees, and has no knowledge of gmail.com being googlemail.com -- that's a problem that is only on the google side...
17:31 eli: mye_: And as for moderation -- these messages get held up in the moderation queue which I scan every 1-3 days, and sometimes I miss real emails.
17:31 eli: In particular, I had a bug in the code that does that, which might have made me miss a few messages lately.
17:31 eli: But there's certainly no policy of rejecting them.
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19:10 SrPx: Is there an implementation of a Haskell-like syntax already? Specifially I like the auto-currying (:
19:10 SrPx: (f g h x) = (f (g (h x)))
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19:42 user--: can anyone guess at what this line is referring to in its use of 'union': (for-stmt ((init (union (listof variable-decl?) (listof expr?)))
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19:44 user--: for example in this code: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/dherman/java.plt/1/5/contract-utils.ss
19:44 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8vzz2j5
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19:55 asumu: user--: I had the answer last time you asked, but I think you'd logged out already. `union` is the old name for `or/c`.
19:55 asumu: See http://docs.racket-lang.org/mzlib/mzlib_contract.html
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19:58 asumu: SrPx: It's certainly possible to implement that by overriding #%app, but I don't see the advantage.
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20:27 dyoo: darn, I missed SrPx's questions on Whalesong
20:28 dyoo: I have to be better about being on irc
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21:15 user--: asumu: thanks much
21:15 user--: is there a good place to lookup these mappings of old->new? seem to be running into them a bunch lately
21:16 user--: I googled a bunch and never arrived at that page.
21:17 asumu: user--: there are porting guides http://docs.racket-lang.org/release/index.html
21:17 asumu: Also, google probably isn't the best way to find things like this.
21:17 asumu: The documentation has its own search.
21:18 user--: when I searched for 'union' in the documentation search I failed to come up with this
21:19 user--: take a look for yourself, http://docs.racket-lang.org/search/index.html?q=union
21:19 user--: (maybe I'm not searching the right place?)
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21:20 asumu: Hmm, for some reason it's not indexed. Probably because it's deprecated.
21:20 asumu: It's still listed in the documentation for mzlib/contract though, which is the file that's been required in that code.
21:20 user--: I don't see it listed in the documentation for mzlib/contract, where is that?
21:20 user--: oh I see
21:20 asumu: The first sentence.
21:21 user--: if I had just looked for mzlib/contract in the search to begin with
21:21 user--: ok
21:21 user--: got it
21:21 asumu: The identifier isn't linked, so that's weird. I guess because there is no entry for it.
21:25 user--: how about optional/c?
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21:31 user--: does this map to ->*? it seems it was originally defined here http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/dherman/java.plt/1/5/contract-utils.ss
21:31 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8vzz2j5
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21:42 SamB_MacG5: man, scribble's query string handling really needs an overhaul ...
21:43 jonrafkind: whats that
21:44 SamB_MacG5: in scribble-common.js and search.js ...
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21:46 jonrafkind: ah yea, it could be nicer
21:46 SamB_MacG5: in particular, I don't see how else to stop the q= from piling up
21:47 jonrafkind: thats a good point, i never realized that
21:48 jonrafkind: does it have any negative effects on your searching?
21:48 jonrafkind: it seems to stop at 3 q='s
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21:50 SamB_MacG5: does it?
21:50 SamB_MacG5: but what lets it get so far in the first place ???
21:50 jonrafkind: i dunno
21:50 SamB_MacG5: anyway, mostly it just gives nasty URLs for everything after that
21:51 SamB_MacG5: or rather, what stops it ...
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22:35 asumu: user--: optional/c is just (or/c ctc #f) for some ctc.
22:36 asumu: In modern Racket you'd write (or/c ctc #f) or you could use option/c from unstable/contract.
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22:59 asumu: Wow, another new SRFI http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-106/
22:59 Rakko: yay
23:00 asumu: (or rather, a proposal)
23:06 neilv: just released http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sudo/
23:06 neilv: why use string-append, when you can over-engineer it
23:07 asumu: Handy, I was going to ask if it supported GUI sudo, but it seems it does. :)
23:07 neilv: it supports gksudo. but i haven't tested kdesudo
23:08 neilv: i don't know what's on macs. if someone wants to tell me the popular mac thing and point me to docs, i'll try to do it without access to a mac
23:09 neilv: (or,if someone wants to buy me a mac, the black ones look nice)
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23:10 mye__: neilv, you mean if sudo is used on osx? I use it daily it's in /usr/bin/sudo
23:10 mye__: or graphically?
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23:10 mye__: hm, good question
23:10 neilv: mye: does "/usr/bin/sudo" on the mac pop up a gui dialog, or is a separate program used for that?
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23:12 mye__: lets see if I can find out how to call the graphical version, it does exist
23:13 neilv: anyway, next to write an iptables interface, which was my immediate need for sudo
23:13 Rakko: it's just regular terminal sudo
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23:14 Rakko: there is a GUI privilege elevation dialog but I have no idea how to invoke it
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23:20 mye__: neilv, there doesn't seem to be a cmdline tool for graphical, only a C api and this applescript (I had to stare at this for a couple minutes to realize the string is the actual applescript: osascript -e "do shell script \"$bar\" with administrator privileges"
23:20 offby1: *groan*
23:21 offby1: another one of those "let's write a programming language that's just like English" languages.
23:21 mye__: really makes the toe nails curl up :-}
23:21 neilv: i was really worried when apple said hypercard would eliminate programmers
23:21 mithos28: offby1: Huh? I thought applescript was the main one of those types of languages
23:22 neilv: cobol
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23:34 mye__: How can I access definitions from the test submodule in the REPL (in drracket)?
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