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04:45 Shambles_: Some of you might find this amusing.  I'm not sure.  I'm teaching someone programming, starting with Python, mostly because I want them to have to learn to use good naming and proper indention before I give them something more freeform.
04:46 Shambles_: Recursion didn't phase them even the slightest.  However, they're having a lot of trouble understanding the difference between assignment and equality, and I don't mean the symbols, I mean the concept.  They keep thinking equality is necessarily permanent, i.e. that everything is immutable.  They seem to be prone to 'forget' what they appear to understand about it too.
04:47 Shambles_: Not what I expected.
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06:55 bremner: should have started them  with Oz ;)
07:10 Cryovat: Shambles_: I guess "everything is immutable" would be correct in some languages :P
07:26 Cryovat: Hmm
07:26 Cryovat: Sudden discovery
07:26 Cryovat: The pipe character can be abused to make some really horrible function names :o
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10:46 stamourv: Shambles_: I'm not surprised.
10:46 stamourv: For someone familiar with algebra (e.g. a good high schooler), mutation is a very odd thing.
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11:13 cky: Shambles_: Try thinking in terms of static single assignment, or datoms (a la Datomic), or anything with a timestamping component.
11:14 cky: Shambles_: Then, variables have such-and-such value _as of_ a given time.
11:15 cky: Shambles_: What I like about thinking with datoms is that (in Datomic) you can get back the value at a previous time. This makes everything immutable; it's just a matter of whether you're looking at the current snapshot or a past one.
11:23 stamourv: cky: I see you mention Datomic. I've heard of it, but haven't really looked into it. What is it for?
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11:30 cky: stamourv: I think of it as like "git for database systems". Each transaction is like a git commit: it doesn't overwrite previous commits, and you can get a snapshot of the data "as of a specific transaction".
11:30 cky: stamourv: So everything is immutable, and it has an architecture that allows highly concurrent reads as a result.
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11:31 stamourv: cky: Cool. Sounds a bit like the temporal databases that were all the rage in the 90s.
11:31 cky: stamourv: It's different from most database systems in that all the smarts are in "peers"; the only "server" as such is the transactor, which is used to enforce integrity constraints. Peers read from the datastore directly, whereas the transactor has write access too. (There are no concurrent writes---this is Datomic's main bottleneck.)
11:31 cky: *nods*
11:32 stamourv: Have you used it?
11:33 cky: Not yet. I actually...want to see if I can use it from Racket. :-P
11:33 stamourv: What kind of interface does it provide?
11:34 cky: Its primary (most featureful) API is in Clojure, since Datomic's written in Clojure.
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11:34 cky: So, yes, I'd have to implement some kind of Racket<->Clojure interop if I want to go that route.
11:34 cky: Recently they've announced a REST API that's more lightweight but usable from any language.
11:35 stamourv: That sounds easier.
11:35 cky: Yes. :-)
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12:28 MightyFoo: night all
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14:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 6 new commits to master: http://git.io/KhjfXA
14:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix unstable/logging to work with the new logging system. - Vincent St-Amour
14:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix OC for new logging system. - Vincent St-Amour
14:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Allow launching OC when it's already running. - Vincent St-Amour
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15:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/aZOzOA
15:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add `current-compiled-file-roots', PLTCOMPILEDROOTS, and -R/--compiled - Matthew Flatt
15:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix default logging levels for stderr and syslog - Matthew Flatt
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20:07 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/oL0Lzw
20:07 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add `xml/xexpr' - Matthew Flatt
20:07 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] scribble HTML: add `head-extra' and support for `attributes' - Matthew Flatt
20:07 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/html-properties: add `js-addition' - Matthew Flatt
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20:52 metajack: When running racket at the commandline, it seems I cannot use #lang. Am I doing something wrong?
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20:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bT-nog
20:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] scribble/html-properties: allow URLs in `css-addition' and `js-addition' - Matthew Flatt
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21:24 asumu: metajack: #lang at the top of a file defines a module. You can write a module at the REPL.
21:24 asumu: rudybot: init racket
21:24 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
21:25 asumu: rudybot: (module foo racket (define x 3) (provide x))
21:25 rudybot: asumu: Done.
21:25 asumu: rudybot: (require 'foo)
21:25 rudybot: asumu: Done.
21:25 asumu: rudybot: x
21:25 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: 3
21:25 asumu: metajack: ^
21:25 asumu: #lang is a shortcut for defining a module. It doesn't work at the REPL.
21:26 metajack: Ah
21:27 metajack: I'm trying to figure out how to load the code from an emacs buffer into the repl running in the inferior-scheme process
21:27 metajack: I'm just working around it now with (require ....)
21:29 asumu: I don't know, have you tried geiser?
21:34 gwh: In the Racket REPL you can use (enter! ...) to load a file.
21:34 gwh: So you can put a bit of elisp in your .emacs. FWIW I do something like this:
21:35 gwh: (defun enter-racket ()
21:35 gwh: (interactive)
21:35 gwh: (let ((w (selected-window)))
21:35 gwh: ;; Re-write the bufer to disk, to make racket re-eval when it enters
21:35 gwh: (set-buffer-modified-p t)
21:35 gwh: (save-buffer)
21:35 gwh: 
21:35 gwh: (select-window (top-left-window))
21:35 gwh: (run-scheme quack-default-program)
21:35 gwh: (select-window w)
21:35 gwh: 
21:35 gwh: (comint-send-string (get-buffer-process "*scheme*")
21:35 gwh: (format ",cd %s\n"
21:35 gwh: (file-name-directory (buffer-file-name))))
21:35 gwh: (comint-send-string (get-buffer-process "*scheme*")
21:35 gwh: (format "(enter! \"%s\")\n"
21:35 gwh: (file-name-nondirectory (buffer-file-name))))
21:35 gwh: (pop-to-buffer "*scheme*" t)
21:35 gwh: (select-window w)))
21:35 gwh: And bind it to F5 much like DrRacket.
21:37 metajack: asumu: I was trying to use Quack
21:37 metajack: but I can switch to geiser if that's better
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21:38 metajack: gwh: thanks, that helps
21:40 Fare: ahem.
21:40 Fare: Is there some racket infrastructure for actual type-directed functors?
21:42 Fare: I'm looking for something that given types a and b and arrows a->b and b->a and objects of an arbitrary (simple?) type where a appears will replace the a by b in the type by introducing proper wrappings.
21:44 Fare: e.g. a->x becomes b->x thanks to term (lambda (f) (lambda (b) (f (b->a b))))
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22:12 lewis1711: these list comprehensions are great. especially with how you can nest them (without actually having to type out all the nesting). I don't think I could use a LISP with these.
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23:44 lewis1711: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/zo5dq/a_brief_description_of_haskell_syntax/c66kmpz propaganda
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23:44 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/98xolha
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