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00:36 mithos28: Will racket ever be fully hygienic? Or are we doomed to hacks for usefulness like struct and syntax/parse?
00:45 jonrafkind: you mean about the struct accessor thing?
00:45 jonrafkind: thats a funny bug because i do that all the time
00:45 mithos28: yeah, and syntax parse splitting ids on the :
00:46 jonrafkind: well imo as long as the unhygienic part is well documented its ok in my eyes
00:46 jonrafkind: hygiene should be the default but there are useful times to be unhygienic
00:47 mithos28: well the issue with struct field names is namespacing
00:47 mithos28: rudybot: (struct foo (v))
00:47 rudybot: mithos28: your sandbox is ready
00:47 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
00:47 mithos28: rudybot: (struct bar foo (v))
00:47 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
00:47 mithos28: (struct/dc bar (v any/c) (v any/c))
00:48 mithos28: rudybot: (struct/dc bar (v any/c) (v any/c))
00:48 rudybot: mithos28: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: struct/dc in module: 'program
00:48 jonrafkind: wait what, I thought it was illegal to have a field name in the child with the same as the parent
00:48 mithos28: rudybot: (require contract/struct)
00:48 rudybot: mithos28: error: #<undefined>:1:9: contract/struct: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: "contract" in any of: (#<path:/mnt/racket-5.2.900.1/collects>) in: contract/struct
00:48 mithos28: jonrafkind: nope
00:48 mithos28: rudybot: (require racket/contract)
00:48 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
00:48 mithos28: rudybot: (struct/dc bar (v any/c) (v any/c))
00:48 rudybot: mithos28: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: struct/dc in module: 'program
00:49 mithos28: well rudybot seems to be old and not have struct/dc
00:49 jonrafkind: what is struct/dc
00:49 mithos28: dependent struct contracts
00:49 jonrafkind: how is it different from struct/c
00:50 mithos28: the contracts can be dependent on one another
00:50 mithos28: i.e. the second field is less than the length of the list that is the first field
00:50 jonrafkind: oh
00:51 jonrafkind: does anyone actually use that?
00:51 mithos28: but it takes as input 'field names' and not the getters
00:51 mithos28: struct/c expands to it
00:51 mithos28: so yes
00:51 jonrafkind: well presumably thats because struct/dc is more general, but the question is does anyone use the features of struct/dc that struct/c doesnt provide
00:52 jonrafkind: i mean it sounds nifty, just wondering if it has any real uses
00:52 mithos28: no uses outside the contract library, its documentation, and tests
00:53 mithos28: require/typed has the same issue
00:53 mithos28: and people use that
00:53 mithos28: the other issue is that it breaks alpha renaming
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02:05 asumu: Yeah, it's weird that children structs can have fields with the same name.
02:05 asumu: But fields aren't "really" named in structs.
02:05 mithos28: asumu: Sorta, they are named but by their getters
02:08 asumu: Yeah, that's what I mean.
02:08 asumu: What alternative do you want to struct's behavior though?
02:08 asumu: Passing in accessor names like in other record systems?
02:09 mithos28: struct is not all that bad because it is the binding site, it is the ones that use it that are worse
02:09 asumu: Ah, like in your bug report. Fair enough.
02:10 mithos28: struct could expand to a hygenic form, the other ones don't have that option
02:10 asumu: Also, it might be nice for generics to not depend on contracts, but right now extracting it is tricky.
02:10 asumu: Mainly because the contract needs access to the struct type accessor.
02:11 mithos28: Why cannot that be exported?
02:11 asumu: If that accessor is exported, it allows arbitrary mutation of the method table.
02:11 asumu: Also, it's part of the expansion of the generics form.
02:11 asumu: Which is why the contract definition is also part of that expansion right now.
02:12 mithos28: But this would all be inside racket/private so I don't think there is an issue about arbitrary mutation
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02:13 asumu: Well, the issue is that one is generated for each generic interface.
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02:14 asumu: Hmm.
02:15 asumu: Well, I have an idea that I'll try.
02:16 mithos28: What is the best way other than units to build up large mutually recursive code?
02:17 mithos28: Units don't work because I want to share syntax bindings between the code. In particular syntax classes.
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10:04 DT`: vector-map & co. are continuation-unsafe, is this the intended behavior? http://paste.lisp.org/display/131164
10:07 DT`: actually, it seems that only vector-map is, vector-filter works as expected.
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10:14 noelw: I dunno, but I think mucking around with continuations is basically tying your own noose
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10:27 DT`: it's an easy fix, though, it's just matter of copying new-v in vector-map in collects/racket/vector.rkt.
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10:46 neilv: hm. paste.lisp.org no longer lists channels
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10:50 neilv: a little shell script for installing racket, which i wrote a while ago, and just found still works. http://paste.lisp.org/display/131165
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11:07 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/uLpetw
11:07 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix internal position adjustment for `pane%' - Matthew Flatt
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11:10 neilv: heh. rendering redex.scrbl still takes ages
11:11 neilv: i wonder whether it's doing regression test examples or something
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11:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/b88FvA
11:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Use module registry trick to slightly speed up TR tests. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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11:30 neilv: i have baseline load-testing numbers for this code under 5.2.1. now to see what happens with 5.3
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11:38 getpwnam: Are the recipes on schemecookbook.org generally up-to-date?
11:39 samth: getpwnam: no
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11:40 getpwnam: So it has no value as a pragmatic learning resource?
11:41 masm: Hi!
11:42 masm: I'm having an issues with email addresses on urls when authenticating with couchdb.
11:43 masm: For example using "http://sample%40sample.com:123456@localhost:5984/db" as source in a replication fails.
11:43 masm: I there a work around for this?
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11:44 masm: Sorry, wrong channel.
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11:57 DanBurton: samth: what is the syntax for optional arg function types?
11:57 samth: DanBurton: use the `case->` form
11:58 DanBurton: keyword args have the [#:blah Foo] syntax, isn't there a syntax for optional args without associated keywords?
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12:06 asumu: getpwnam: it could, but if you do consult it you should look at the examples with a skeptical eye.
12:06 getpwnam: okay, thanks
12:07 asumu: getpwnam: are you looking for anything in particular?
12:09 getpwnam: Not really .. I've recently begun learning Racket and I'd like to be able to rewrite my small Perl scripts (mainly dealing with text processing) into Racket, mainly as a learning exercise at this point
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12:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/SUpR6Q
12:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added make-variable-like-transformer - Ryan Culpepper
12:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added make-log-based-eval - Ryan Culpepper
12:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] db: use log-based-eval for most examples - Ryan Culpepper
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12:11 getpwnam: I did find this http://pleac.sourceforge.net/pleac_guile/index.html but I think that Guile is quite different from Racket?
12:12 asumu: Yes, it is.
12:12 asumu: Some people have put together a cookbook-like thing for Racket here: https://github.com/plt/racket/wiki/Artifacts
12:12 asumu: It doesn't have too many examples yet though.
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12:15 getpwnam: thanks for the link
12:15 getpwnam: a cookbook would definitely be very useful.. I for one would be prepared to pay for a Racket Cookbook if one is ever published.
12:16 getpwnam: I found the best way to learn Perl was to type in the cookbook examples, then modify and expand them in various ways.
12:16 getpwnam: I'm sure the same would be true for Racket
12:16 asumu: That would be nice. Though I'd like to see a "Programming Racket" O'Reily first. ;)
12:17 asumu: I think reading the Guide is a good way to learn Racket. Though it's not quite a cookbook.
12:18 asumu: Also, I vote for the Pistol Shrimp as the cover animal for Racket.
12:18 asumu: Because it... makes a racket.
12:19 getpwnam: I see
12:20 getpwnam: I'm currently working through the Guide -- it's very nice but would be even better with lots more examples
12:20 getpwnam: I agree about the O'Reilly book -- it would make Racket more visible too
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12:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/sZnnsQ
12:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] references: link "A parameter that..." to the definition of "parameter" - Matthew Flatt
12:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add `flexpt' to compiler's table of flonum functions - Matthew Flatt
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12:38 DanBurton wants a book on Racket macros
12:40 jonrafkind: me too.. but have you seen the one in the scheme book by dybvig?
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14:27 triffidd: how do we convert float to integer in Racket? I don't see anything in the reference
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14:37 jonrafkind: (inexact->exact (round x))
14:37 jonrafkind: you can swap the two and it still works, and one way is faster than the other, but i forget which at thispoint
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14:41 asumu: BTW: as of 5.3 there is an exact-round too
14:41 asumu: rudybot: (exact-round 5.3)
14:41 rudybot: asumu: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: exact-round in module: 'program
14:42 asumu: (rudybot isn't 5.3 yet nevermind)
14:44 triffidd: Thanks guys .. I was looking for rational->integer or suchlike, but exact-round does the trick
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15:35 neilv: racket 5.3 is indeed faster on one real-world app
15:35 neilv: compared to 5.2.1
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15:39 asumu: neilv: Oh nice. Can you tell us what?
15:39 asumu: (or at least how it's faster, just curious)
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15:46 neilv: asumu: don't know why it's faster; this is from load-testing, not from profiling
15:47 neilv: speedup is significant but not huge
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15:52 yoklov: oh, exact-round was definitely something i had missed
15:53 yoklov: especially when doing graphics. i would profile and see that some absurd amount of time was spent in a (define (round* x) (inexact->exact (round x))) function
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15:54 yoklov: i thought (round (inexact->exact x)) didn't work unless x was already close enouhg to a rational number though.
15:54 yoklov: huh.
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16:14 DanBurton: rudybot: (round 3)
16:14 rudybot: DanBurton: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
16:14 rudybot: DanBurton: ; Value: 3
16:14 rudybot: DanBurton: ; stdout: "- : Integer [generalized from Positive-Byte]\n"
16:14 DanBurton: rudybot: (round (inexact->exact 3.0))
16:14 rudybot: DanBurton: ; Value: 3
16:14 rudybot: DanBurton: ; stdout: "- : Integer [generalized from Exact-Nonnegative-Integer]\n"
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16:49 neilv: i wonder whether nickserv will suddenly start kicking people off
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16:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/LliZTg
16:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix typechecking of polymorphic structs with parent types. - Eric Dobson
16:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add `-v` option to TR tests. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
16:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Remove `#:transparent` to work around place message limitations. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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17:58 neilv: (and (here (number me)) (call/maybe me))
17:59 DT`: (call/cc me)
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17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/S7XDyg
17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] remove a useless compiler transformation - Matthew Flatt
17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] props fixup - Matthew Flatt
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18:00 neilv: (call me) ; debbie harry
18:01 neilv: (call/cc me) ; someone who takes credit cards
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23:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/DVtQDg
23:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Rackety - Robby Findler
23:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add scale-to-fit to slideshow/pict - Robby Findler
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23:48 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/mgTl_A
23:48 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] rename function scale-to-fit to avoid conflict - Robby Findler
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