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00:31 mhr_: I'm using #lang r5rs, so I don't see why this didn't work.  When I tried to use a when conditional in racket, it didn't work, so I tried to create them with the macro in this book I'm learning from: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-10.html#node_chap_8.  However, it gave me this error message: "expand: unbound identifier in module in: define-macro".  Can you help me understand what's going on?
00:31 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/27ozm5
00:31 mithos28: what are you trying to do?
00:31 mhr_: to clarify, I meant "to use a when conditional in dr. racket"
00:32 mithos28: can you show the program you are using?
00:32 mhr_: well, I tried to use a when conditional, but it said "reference to undefined identifier: when"
00:32 mhr_: here:
00:33 mhr_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131139
00:34 mithos28: Thats not a full program. Do you have a #lang r5rs line at the top, or an #lang racket line at the top?
00:34 mhr_: I tried both, actually
00:34 mithos28: With racket it should definitely work
00:35 mhr_: I just tried it again, and it worked.  whoops, sorry for wasting your time
00:35 mhr_: tried it in racket, I mean
00:35 mithos28: no problem
00:35 mithos28: r5rs is old, and shouldn't be used except for good reason
00:38 mhr_: trouble is that r6rs doesn't work in dr. racket
00:39 mithos28: what do you mean?
00:39 mhr_: well, if I wanted to use the standard scheme, I can't, because "Interactions disabled: r6rs does not support a REPL (no #%top-interaction) "
00:40 mhr_: when using #lang r6rs
00:40 mithos28: Well, yeah. r6rs doesn't have a repl.
00:40 mhr_: oh.  didn't know that.  how come?
00:41 mithos28: Because the semantics of repls are awful, and make it impossible to build large programs
00:41 close-paren`: they forgot?
00:41 close-paren`: yeah, haskell has the same problem. the repl is only a subset of the IO monad
00:41 mhr_: I find the repl to be useful while I'm learning the language
00:42 mithos28: mhr_: why do you want to use the standard scheme?
00:43 mhr_: I thought that it's best to use a standard rather than a dialect, wouldn't the community be bigger?
00:44 mithos28: Nope.
00:44 mithos28: Scheme standards are not like other language standards.
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00:44 mhr_: in what respect?
00:46 mithos28: The issue with the scheme standards is that they lag too far behind the implementations
00:46 mithos28: and there is not enough consensus between the implementations
00:46 m4burns: mhr_: are you the same mhr from #csc?
00:46 mhr_: yeah
00:47 mithos28: r6rs was the first to add a module system to scheme, and that barely got through
00:47 mithos28: now r7rs is ripping it out
00:48 mithos28: just use the non standard version of what ever your implementation is
00:48 mithos28: its not like you will be able to write a portable program anyway
00:48 mhr_: that's pretty pessimistic
00:49 mhr_: why wouldn't I?
00:49 mithos28: Do you want threads?
00:49 mithos28: Do you want sockets?
00:50 mithos28: Do you want access to unix style system level stuff?
00:50 mhr_: probably not
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00:51 mithos28: Well you might be able to write a portable program then
00:51 mithos28: But I'm not sure how you would distribute it, since where to find libraries for each scheme isn't standardized
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01:32 asumu: Racket is not Scheme, so its standard is not really relevant to it.
01:33 asumu: And this works in practice for most people/languages: see Ruby, Clojure.
01:33 mithos28: asumu: It still implements* the standard though. *(Modulo some minor details)
01:34 asumu: Yes, which in some ways is unfortunate since it's pretty painful to program in those sublanguages.
01:36 asumu: mhr_: FYI, the top level/REPL is hopeless: https://gist.github.com/3083053
01:38 mithos28: asumu: Thanks. I couldn't find that because I was looking for "The toplevel considered harmful"
01:42 asumu: mhr_: also, Fixnum Days is/was probably a good book, it's now extremely out of date.
01:42 asumu: define-macro, for example, is not worth using.
01:43 asumu: mithos28: I think it'd be nice if Matthew one day wrote a blog post synthesizing all that.
01:43 mithos28: Yeah I thought there was one already, but couldn't find it.
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01:46 mhr_: asumu: I liked fixnum days because I could just learn the language without having to worry about learning programming too, if that makes sense.
01:49 asumu: mhr_: maybe TSPL? http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
01:49 asumu: It at least has a somewhat more modern treatment of macros.
01:49 asumu: The Racket Guide too.
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02:26 close-paren`: mhr_: i know what you mean, but I've grown to enjoy the intro texts too. it fascinates me the multitude of different things considered to be the One True Way of learning to program.
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04:21 Haffe: close-paren: I used to teach programming in RACKET.
04:22 Haffe: We, the TAs used to say that a multitude of sources is a good thing. That means that if the student is not satisfied with one source there are more sources.
04:23 Haffe: I use the same tactic. I usually get 2 or 3 books on a topic, and then jump between them. That saves a lot of time.
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06:06 Jeanne-Kamikaze: is it me, or are the string functions missing ? I'm doing (require racket/string) and still get unbound identifier errors
06:09 noelw: It's probably you :)
06:10 Jeanne-Kamikaze: maybe the distro's package is flawed or something
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07:33 inglesp: i think i've found an issue with the instructions as http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html
07:33 inglesp: specifically, i was getting an error in step 2 when i clicked "Run" having "#lang slideshow" in the definitions area
07:33 inglesp: i had to select "Determine language from source" from the dropdown in the bottom left of the DrRacket window
07:33 inglesp: this was with a fresh install of racket 5.3
07:33 inglesp: should i report this? (and how?)
07:34 mye: If I use define to set a module global, how can I parameterise the expression? e.g. (parameterize ([permissive-xexprs #t])
07:34 mye: (define xml (xml->xexpr (read-xml in)))) gives an error.
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07:40 mye: contract/out: cannot set! a contract/out variable in: permissive-xexprs    -- set! doesn't work either
07:48 mye: Has anyone worked with RDF in Racket?
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08:39 noelw: mye: parameters are a separate data structure
08:39 noelw: you can't set! a parameter
08:39 noelw: hth
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09:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/nQR76g
09:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] control-alt for menu selections probably shouldn't be - Robby Findler
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09:29 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/dM-nDg
09:29 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] clarify control-based keybindings - Robby Findler
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09:55 neilv: anyone aware of any quirks with the db connection-pool
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10:08 asumu: inglesp: did you see this sentence in that tutorial? "you might need to reset DrRacket to use the language declared in the source via the Language|Choose Language... menu item before clicking Run."
10:09 inglesp: asumu: apparently not
10:09 inglesp: thanks
10:09 asumu: inglesp: also FYI in general you can report bugs by Help->Submit Bug report... in DrRacket.
10:09 asumu: Or on bugs.racket-lang.org
10:09 inglesp: ok
10:11 asumu: Jeanne-Kamikaze: what function is missing?
10:11 Jeanne-Kamikaze: all of the racket/string ones
10:12 Jeanne-Kamikaze: string-trim, string-split for example
10:12 Jeanne-Kamikaze: I mean, I just open the repl, do (require racket/string) then string-trim and I get an error
10:13 Jeanne-Kamikaze: > (require racket/string)
10:13 Jeanne-Kamikaze: > string-trim
10:13 Jeanne-Kamikaze: . . reference to an identifier before its definition: string-trim
10:20 vu3rdd: Jeanne-Kamikaze: which version are you running? How did you install?
10:20 Jeanne-Kamikaze: 5.2.1, package in sabayon
10:20 vu3rdd: Jeanne-Kamikaze: it works for me (I am running a recent git version compiled from source)
10:21 vu3rdd: Jeanne-Kamikaze: I think the string package was newly introduced in 5.3 if I remember correct.
10:22 Jeanne-Kamikaze: guess gentoo is not that bleeding edge then
10:22 vu3rdd: try searching for the string functions in your installation of docs (via 'raco docs' which will open your browser)
10:24 neilv: in 5.2.1, string-trim was only in srfi/13 , not in racket/string
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10:42 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/yfUBPw
10:42 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] ffi/unsafe docs: improve `_cprocedure' docs - Matthew Flatt
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10:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/jwR1mg
10:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Adding documentation for cast and make-predicate. - Eric Dobson
10:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add some examples for `cast`. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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11:11 MightyFoo: soegaard: did you find out about the help thing from yesterday?
11:12 soegaard: No, not yet.
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11:58 asumu: Generics with polymorphic contracts: https://gist.github.com/3292447
11:58 asumu: The contracts look kinda like types for type classes.
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12:04 mithos28: samth: ping
12:04 samth: mithos28: pong
12:04 mithos28: so about tc-app
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12:05 mithos28: I think you are saying to have a syntax class for every sub file that I have
12:05 samth: something like that, yeah
12:06 mithos28: and if it matches that syntax class call the function from the corresponding file
12:07 samth: right
12:07 samth: and you might have the syntax class provide some attributes to save re-parsing
12:07 mithos28: What about the syntax class providing the function to call?
12:07 mithos28: Then it can become a giant or
12:08 mithos28: All the necessary saved information can be closed over by the function
12:08 samth: oh, that's kinda clever
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12:09 mithos28: Its very similar to actually doing the work as I suggested before, but requires syntax/parse to hand off control so that we know it won't do any more back tracking
12:09 samth: yeah
12:09 mithos28: also my original suggestion won't work, because we still need to pass in the expected type
12:09 samth: it would be nice if syntax-parse worked better for this
12:10 samth: mithos28: you can write a parameterized syntax class that takes the expected type as an argument
12:10 mithos28: True, forgot about that
12:11 mithos28: So the only thing different about this versus my orginal suggestion, is that we know that syntax/parse cannot backtrack on us
12:11 mithos28: Wouldn't a cut! or similar form get us the same thing?
12:12 samth: mithos28: i don't think so, but i'll ask ryan
12:13 mithos28: Ok, so I'll switch it over to a syntax class that produces a function for now?
12:13 samth: yeah
12:14 mithos28: Ok should have it done in a day or two
12:16 mithos28: I've also been working on trying to cleanup how struct types are resolved so that free variable calculation can be done correctly on applications. I'll have a rough draft of that in a few days aswell.
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12:21 samth: mithos28: wonderful
12:21 samth: back to parallelizing tests
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12:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/gzER4A
12:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/generic: allow impersonator contracts - Asumu Takikawa
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14:29 jonrafkind: samth, I still see errors about warning in: cloop in module: '#%utils: optimizer detects procedure incorrectly applied to 1 arguments: map
14:29 samth: jonrafkind: i didn't fix that, just the one in typed racket
14:30 jonrafkind: ohh oops, i thought you did
14:30 jonrafkind: ok ill fix it
14:31 jonrafkind: hm, just hacking startup.rktl doesnt fix it
14:31 jonrafkind: i guess the file is generated somehow
14:32 samth: yeah
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15:32 asumu: samth: so I think we have enough contract support to do something like type classes in TR some day.
15:32 asumu: Would be interesting to think about when we have more time.
15:34 asumu: (actually probably need more reflection to get an appropriate contract given a gen:foo...)
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15:38 neilv: in one hour this morning, i added db connection pooling to this legacy app. now it is becoming a 1+ day job to debug it
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15:52 samth: places with free variables: https://gist.github.com/3418762
15:59 asumu: samth: it looks up the free vars and sends them along as a vector?
15:59 samth: yes
16:00 samth: that's how i usually initialize places anyway
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16:03 asumu: Oh neat. I hadn't realized that the place body only closes over a few things.
16:06 soegaard: very neat
16:06 samth: asumu: it lets you reference top-level variables
16:06 samth: because the body is lifted
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16:12 jonrafkind: github is slow today.. checking out the plt repo from them is going at 30kb/s
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16:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/mck6Jg
16:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add #:forall, #:∀ to contract-out - Asumu Takikawa
16:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Delete trailing whitespace - Asumu Takikawa
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16:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Mb2keA
16:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix typo introduced by 965a74453f89e - Asumu Takikawa
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17:47 neilv: oh bloody 'ell
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17:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/ZV22SA
17:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add `open-place`. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
17:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Parallelize running Typed Racket optimizer tests. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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17:52 neilv: i bet a connection pool uses the current-custodian from when it was created
17:54 neilv: that makes sense, and it would explain my bug
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17:56 DanBurton: is there anywhere that rigorously documents Typed Racket's type filter feature?
17:57 DanBurton: "filter" unfortunately overlaps with a common use case of functional programming, making it rather ungoogleable
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18:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/NZEmWw
18:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] correctly apply map to its argument due to an early ). Fixes PR 13047 - Jon Rafkind
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18:37 jonrafkind: good work neilv
18:39 neilv: bad work, when one considers it took me only an hour at 6am to implement transparent pool of pools, and then many hours scattered throughout the day to discover what sounds obvious :)
18:39 neilv: my neighbors probably think i have tourette's
18:40 jonrafkind: 'do you have tourettes?' 'no i have racket!'
18:40 neilv: rackets sounds like rickets
18:41 neilv: bbl
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20:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/FUs1qQ
20:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix use of compiled startup code - Matthew Flatt
20:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix doc bug - Matthew Flatt
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20:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/OJadWQ
20:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] plug a leak in online compilation that could hold onto - Robby Findler
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22:32 close-paren: asumu: is elem a type parameter of stack?
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22:54 asumu: close-paren: yes, more or less.
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22:56 close-paren: hmm, perhaps similar to typeclasses. I know that C++ bear a strong resemblance as well, save that all type instances terminate
22:56 close-paren: er, C++ concepts i mean
22:57 close-paren: I'll have to look at Racket's more closely
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