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01:02 jyc: I have been looking at the web-server functionalities, and there seem to be no usage of objects. I've looked at the racket style guide I was linked to ("How to Program Racket"), but the section on Classes/Units is not currently written up. if I want to write idiomatic code, when should I use each feature?
01:02 mithos28: If it is needed/makes the code nicer
01:03 mithos28: For examples of when units are needed, take a look at typed-racket
01:03 jyc: naturally - but if both options are equally viable, there isn't really an idiomatic "racket way"?
01:03 jyc: oh cool, will check that out
01:04 mithos28: They serve different purposes
01:04 mithos28: units in TR are used because of mutually recursive functions
01:05 mithos28: and since the module system requires modules to be a DAG you cannot have them split across modules
01:05 mithos28: Units get around this, and allow for example the typechecker to be split over 10-20 files
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01:07 (nick) Araq_bnc -> Araq
01:09 jyc: mithos28: oh, I see. thought units were just for enforcing signatures (from racket guide) that is a cool use - thanks again
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01:47 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/0YsADA
01:47 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Additional guide fix by Lee Duhem - Asumu Takikawa
01:47 (part) RacketCommitBot
01:50 asumu: jyc: units are also useful for generic programming, where you want to parameterize your algorithm (for example) over different implementations.
01:50 asumu: They are like ML functors in that regard.
01:50 mithos28: asumu: does that ever get used?
01:51 asumu: Not very often.
01:51 asumu: Although a notable use is the DrRacket tool API
01:52 mithos28: can you send a link on that?
01:54 asumu: mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/tools/index.html (see drracket:tool^ and drracket:tool-exports^ which are the relevant signatures)
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02:55 asumu: rudybot: (define (fact n) (let loop ([n n] [p 1]) (if (zero? n) 1 (loop (sub1 n) (* p n)))))
02:55 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
02:55 rudybot: asumu: Done.
02:56 asumu: rudybot: (log (fact 1000))
02:56 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: 0
02:56 asumu: Err.
02:56 asumu: That works in my REPL...
02:56 mithos28: rudybot: (define (fact n) (let loop ([n n] [p 1]) (if (zero? n) 1 (loop (sub1 n) (* p n)))))
02:56 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
02:57 mithos28: rudybot: (fact 4)
02:57 rudybot: mithos28: ; Value: 1
02:57 mithos28: lol
02:57 mithos28: its the base case
02:57 asumu: Oh, duh it's p
02:57 asumu: I transcribed it wrong from my REPL.
02:57 asumu: rudybot: (define (fact n) (let loop ([n n] [p 1]) (if (zero? n) p (loop (sub1 n) (* p n)))))
02:57 rudybot: asumu: Done.
02:57 asumu: rudybot: (log (fact 1000))
02:57 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: 5912.128178488163
02:58 asumu: I'm glad Racket handles this: http://re-factor.blogspot.com/2012/08/factor-095-now-available.html
02:58 asumu: Err, wrong link
02:58 mithos28: lol
02:58 asumu: http://re-factor.blogspot.com/2011/09/really-big-numbers.html
02:58 mithos28: not having much luck are you?
02:58 asumu: Yeah, it's late.
02:58 jonrafkind: is factor that ridiculous postfix language?
02:58 mithos28: only if you are one the east coast
02:58 mithos28: jonrafkind: yes
02:59 asumu: 0.95 just came out. Looks interesting.
03:09 asumu: Anyone know why Racket doesn't normalize rationals when printing?
03:09 asumu: I tried to look up if that's done for Scheme in general, but no much luck on Google.
03:09 mithos28: example?
03:11 asumu: Hmm, actually I think it does.
03:18 asumu: Oh, ugh. I see why.
03:18 asumu: rudybot: (inexact->exact 2.4)
03:18 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: 5404319552844595/2251799813685248
03:18 asumu: Because this fraction is very close to 2.4 (floating point representation issue, I think).
03:19 mithos28: yep
03:20 mithos28: the denominator is 2^51
03:22 Gertm: jonrafkind: why ridiculous?
03:23 jonrafkind: postfix and concatentive, seems ultra strange to me
03:23 Gertm: Think about it this way:
03:23 Gertm: With Lisp, you have to read most stuff inside-out.
03:24 Gertm: (do-thing-3 (do-thing-2 (do-thing-1 data)))
03:24 Gertm: In concatenative it looks like this: data do-thing-1 do-thing-2 do-thing-3
03:24 jonrafkind: i know how to think about it
03:24 Gertm: So, why ridiculous again?
03:25 Gertm: (Not trying to troll you, just wanna know why you think this)
03:25 jonrafkind: just an opinion. if someone says they think prefix is ridiculous then so be it
03:26 Gertm: Ok, I'll let it go.
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06:07 tim-brown: i've a program that allocates a 60 million wide vector of numbers (as a cache)
06:08 Cryovat: I hope you're using fxvector or flvector for that
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06:10 tim-brown: I need to vector-set and vector-ref it a great deal
06:10 tim-brown: Berry
06:10 tim-brown: But it seems unduly slow
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06:11 Cryovat: Eh
06:12 noelw: That's a very big cache
06:13 noelw: The memory access patterns aren't going to be too good for that
06:13 noelw: unless it is an unboxed type as Cryovat pointed out
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06:36 tim-brown: noelw: it *is* a big cache; i generated it while making a first (naive/brute-force) attempt at a project euler problem
06:37 tim-brown: nonetheless, if i'd have implemented it in C; a malloc and pointer referencing would be *much* faster
06:38 tim-brown: (and it would probably be faster yet in shen language)
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06:38 tim-brown: Croyvant: re Berry -- IRC and Swype don't work so well together
06:39 tim-brown: Cryovat: an fxvector wasn't helping me so much
06:41 tim-brown: i have similarly sized arrays in C in production code. again, possibly a result of lazy thinking :-) but they work well for me
06:42 tim-brown: mind you; it could've been the pants computer i was using last night -- same code is blazing ahead on my linux box here
06:47 soegaard: tim-brown: which euler problem?
06:47 tim-brown: 250
06:48 tim-brown: i've got better ways to do it now -- but i was interested in the performance of a 250*250250 length vector
06:50 soegaard: Euler Project has been updated since I was hooked.
06:50 soegaard: In Khan Academy style I've got Awards!
06:52 soegaard: Oh! Haven't got them - it is just a list of the available awards  :-)
06:53 tim-brown: OK -- it's my utter pants pc at home; panic over! I'm getting the wrong answer in 13 seconds
06:53 tim-brown: (and that includes debug)
06:57 soegaard: And it is now possible to choose Racket as the used language.
06:57 tim-brown: is it?
06:57 tim-brown: i though i typed that in as "other"
06:58 soegaard: Now there is a dropdown.
07:00 soegaard: After I changed language I didn't show up on the list of Racket users, but the statistics pages might be generated on a daily basis.
07:00 tim-brown: i'll make sure i'm a racket user, then
07:00 soegaard: Ooh. After accessing the account page, I got some of the awards after all.
07:00 tim-brown: congrats
07:00 tim-brown: i had to work for mine!
07:00 soegaard: Not many though :-)
07:01 tim-brown: still, awards for free! MEDALS ALL ROUND!
07:02 soegaard: I've got "Daring Dozen":  Solve twelve problems with an id containing three digits.
07:02 tim-brown: 78 racket users; but we seem to be a bright bunch
07:03 tim-brown: dunno hos many "Scheme" users are using racket (I was a Scheme user until a moment ago)
07:03 soegaard: Ditto
07:04 soegaard: A shame you can't sort the languages after the "Average percent solved"
07:04 soegaard: 25: Scheme
07:04 soegaard: 24: Pencil and paper
07:05 tim-brown: i can't sort by number of users
07:05 tim-brown: racket has a tenth of the user-base of pencil and paper!
07:06 soegaard: Interesting to see that at least half of the Racket users are american.
07:07 tim-brown: interesting to see that i'm not listed in that report
07:07 tim-brown: although i see in the corner there is "Cache update: 49 mins"
07:07 tim-brown: so i'll be a racket user within the hour!
07:12 tim-brown: i like the naive solutions for exercising racket
07:12 tim-brown: sometimes there is a "neat bit of maths" that shortcuts these problems; but they don't exercise such things as memory management nearly as well
07:15 tim-brown: if it doesn't break your programming language then your solution doesn't use enough brute force
07:15 soegaard: After solving a problem I enjoy reading about the other solutions.
07:16 tim-brown: of course, that bit's fun too! it's quite a wonderful passtime all round
07:16 tim-brown: (although it's stopping me from getting any physical exercise)
07:16 soegaard: :-)
07:20 soegaard: tim-brown: Would you be interested in testing the number theory functions here?
07:20 soegaard: https://github.com/ntoronto/racket/blob/master/collects/math/number-theory.rkt
07:20 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/cjpwh9n
07:24 soegaard: Prime number functions are in: https://github.com/ntoronto/racket/blob/master/collects/math/private/number-theory/number-theory.rkt
07:24 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/9d2o2da
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07:24 tim-brown: typed racket... that'll be a departure for me; i've reminded myself about it on google+
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07:25 tim-brown: i'll see if i can bring some stress to bear upon it :-)
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07:28 tim-brown: i'm not such a hot number theorist, to be honest; i prefer the "control"/algorithmic problems
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07:30 soegaard: You don't need to use typed Racket. You can require math/number-theory.rkt from a module written in Racket.
07:31 soegaard: The more you break the better ;-)
07:31 tim-brown: oh, ok... so i can develop TR skills alongside writing Racket code
07:31 Cryovat: TR in general is great
07:31 Cryovat: It catches a lot of silly mistakes for you
07:32 tim-brown: i make a lot of silly mistakes to catch... we should get on splendidly then!
07:37 tim-brown: (Correct solution to 250 found in 10 seconds; with an fxvector cache)
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07:38 tim-brown: are there a modulo-* and modulo-expt in that number-theory library?
07:38 soegaard: yes
07:39 soegaard: (with-modulus 250 (^ 7 6777))
07:40 soegaard: The (with-modulus n expr) will calculate the result of expr modulus 250. The operations + - * ^ mod and inv (for inverse) works in expr as modulo n operations.
07:41 soegaard: Adding stand alone operations might actually be good thing.
07:43 soegaard: Documentation: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/soegaard/math.plt/1/5/doc.txt
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07:48 tim-brown: thanks soegaard
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09:55 soegaard: Hmm. Type Checker: Macro with-modulus from typed module used in untyped code
09:56 soegaard: How should macros in Typed Racket be exported in order to use in non-TR code ?
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10:19 ramrunner: Hi guys! has anybody tried to run https://github.com/samth/gcstats on linux?  i'm using bundled racket 5.3 on x64 and i get a : default-load-handler: cannot open directory as a file: ".../gcstats" (errno=?)
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10:32 asumu: ramrunner: I get that error too
10:32 asumu: samth: ^
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10:40 ramrunner: asumu: thanks
10:41 tim-brown: soegaard: did you get an answer to that Type Checker question?
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12:32 tim-brown: have a nice weekend all!
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12:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/iBo5nQ
12:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/draw contracts: racket -> racket/base - Asumu Takikawa
12:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Forge non-existent generic functions like write-proc - Asumu Takikawa
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16:07 jonrafkind: is there a generic to-string function somewhere?
16:08 jonrafkind: actually I guess (format "~a" x) will do
16:09 asumu: jonrafkind: or ryanc's cat library.
16:09 asumu: (in unstable)
16:09 jonrafkind: oh yea
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16:54 Jeanne-Kamikaze: hi
16:54 asumu: Jeanne-Kamikaze: hi
16:54 Jeanne-Kamikaze: is this a good place to ask questions ?
16:54 asumu: Jeanne-Kamikaze: If they're about Racket, then yes, very much so.
16:55 Jeanne-Kamikaze: in typed racket, what's the type of a function that just has a side effect ?
16:56 asumu: rudybot: init typed/racket
16:56 rudybot: asumu: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
16:56 asumu: rudybot: displayln
16:56 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: #<procedure:displayln>
16:56 rudybot: asumu: ; stdout: "- : (case-> (Any Output-Port -> Void) (Any -> Void)) ... [Use (:print-type <expr>) to see more.]\n"
16:56 asumu: Jeanne-Kamikaze: ^ as you can see the return type is Void
16:56 asumu: rudybot: void
16:56 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: #<procedure:void>
16:56 rudybot: asumu: ; stdout: "- : (Any * -> Void)\n"
16:56 asumu: (better example)
16:56 Jeanne-Kamikaze: oh ok, this doesn't seem to be mentioned in the typed racket guide on the web ?
16:58 asumu: I guess not. It's the same as Void in Java or any other language though.
16:58 asumu: Maybe there should be an example showing it somewhere though.
16:59 asumu: Light table 0.1 looks slick: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/08/17/light-table-reaches-010/
16:59 asumu: I wonder if it's useful though.
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17:00 asumu: Jeanne-Kamikaze: also, it's in the reference (though it doesn't say much about it)
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17:02 Jeanne-Kamikaze: ah right, didn't remember about that part
17:06 tim-brown: quick question on variable names... sometimes in maths, one generates an N' from variable N (for the next iteration)... given the character set available to us for variable names, how do people label "N" and "N'"?
17:07 tim-brown: i've used "N0 and N1", "N and N1" all sorts
17:07 Jeanne-Kamikaze: good question, I was also wondering about that
17:07 Jeanne-Kamikaze: maybe N-
17:08 tim-brown: the lovely lisp people left us with not being able to use the ' character itself!
17:08 tim-brown: (forever in their debt and all...)
17:09 tim-brown: N- might be good for "decremental" activities. And I've thrown in unicode subscript characters before now
17:10 tim-brown: but there's conventions for everything in scheme and/or racket
17:10 tim-brown: ...? for predicates, etc
17:11 tim-brown: i come from C, so I'm grateful to be able to use '-'! (and '!'!)
17:13 asumu: tim-brown: Since Racket is unicode, it is technically possible to use a unicode ' character that is distinct from '.
17:13 asumu: (but this is horrible, so don't do it :p)
17:13 asumu: (unless you really want to )
17:13 jrslepak: would make for interesting reading
17:13 tim-brown: asumu: i was going to ask... can you even conceive of the hell you describe?
17:13 tim-brown: might as well be programming in whitespace
17:14 tim-brown: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/
17:14 tim-brown: (racket isn't a dialect of whitespace is it?)
17:14 asumu: rudybot: eval (define x′ 3) x′
17:14 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: 3
17:14 rudybot: asumu: ; stdout: "- : Integer [generalized from Positive-Byte]\n"
17:15 tim-brown: don't you encourage the robot to do that!
17:15 tim-brown: (oh and do i have to ask rudybot to explicily shorten my urls?)
17:16 tim-brown: rudybot: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/
17:16 rudybot: tim-brown: [2] http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/,
17:16 asumu: There might be a length threshold or something.
17:16 tim-brown: i have issues with rudybot
17:17 tim-brown: i like: "Whitespace is a particularly useful language for spies. Imagine you have a top secret program that you don't want anyone to see. What do you do? Simply print it out and delete the file, ready to type in at a later date. Nobody will know that your blank piece of paper is actually vital computer code! "
17:17 tim-brown: sorry folks... off-topic, i'll be selling the benefits of shen-language soon
17:18 asumu: #lang whitespace would be an entertaining weekend hack.
17:19 tim-brown: indeedy
17:20 asumu: rudybot: init racket
17:20 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
17:21 asumu: rudybot: (define ′⟨،x⟩ "mwahahaha")
17:21 rudybot: asumu: Done.
17:21 asumu: rudybot: ′⟨،x⟩
17:21 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: "mwahahaha"
17:21 tim-brown: asumu... is that a Roman/western 'x', or something that looks like one from the acrylic alphabet?
17:22 tim-brown: or sanscrit
17:22 asumu: I am not that evil.
17:22 tim-brown: i'm suspecting you're a phisherman
17:23 tim-brown: rudybot: asumu
17:23 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value: 411
17:23 asumu: o_O
17:24 tim-brown: :-)
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18:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/NGWzxA
18:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust the expansion of class so that it tracks identifiers - Robby Findler
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18:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/mVbdaw
18:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix bug in commit 52f18ee37 - Robby Findler
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21:32 sizz: is there a development roadmap for Racket?
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23:28 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ao1IDg
23:28 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix guide section 14.6.2 - Asumu Takikawa
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