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01:47 asumu: Just saw this: http://cxwangyi.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/why-go-use-racket/
01:47 asumu: from http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/x3zur/why_go_use_racket/
01:49 mithos28: The channels being slow is a suprise to me
01:50 mithos28: thats in the follow up post
01:54 mithos28: How slow should making a channel and a thread be?
02:00 asumu: Yeah, I was surprised too.
02:02 mithos28: I think it is creating the threads
02:10 mithos28: Wow it is also creating tons of garbage
02:16 mithos28: https://gist.github.com/3224211
02:16 mithos28: Something is up with gc there
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02:38 asumu: It's not a linear growth with 'n' either.
02:39 mithos28: Well it should be around quadratic
02:39 mithos28: after constant allocation it does a gc which is linear
02:39 mithos28: assuming the nursery size is constant
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02:40 mithos28: I can make a chain of 400 times more boxes and have the same time to collect the garbage
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04:12 tim-brown: rudybot: #t
04:12 rudybot: tim-brown: your sandbox is ready
04:12 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value: #t
04:13 tim-brown: what distinuishes _ as a wildcard, vs _ as a bound value?
04:13 tim-brown: rduybot: (define (foo x) (_ x))
04:13 tim-brown: rudybot: (define (foo x) (_ x))
04:13 rudybot: tim-brown: error: #<undefined>:1:16: _: wildcard not allowed as an expression in: (_ x)
04:13 tim-brown: rudybot: (define (foo x) (Z x))
04:13 rudybot: tim-brown: Done.
04:13 tim-brown: rudybot: (define (foo x) (xxyy x))
04:13 rudybot: tim-brown: Done.
04:14 tim-brown: rudybot:  (let _ ((x 2)) (if (= x 0) 0 (+ x (_ (- x 1)))))
04:14 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value: 3
04:14 tim-brown: has the syntactic nature of _ changed in the let binding vs in the first define of foo?
04:15 tim-brown: what forms are there available to "experiment" and "investigate" how things are biynd?
04:15 tim-brown: s/biynd/bound
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06:22 soegaard: tim-brown: There is nothing special about the identifier _. There is just a convention that if _ is used in say (define-values (a _) (values 41 42)) then the programmer do not intend to use the second value returned.
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06:47 tim-brown: rudybot: _
06:47 rudybot: tim-brown: error: #<undefined>:1:0: _: wildcard not allowed as an expression in: _
06:47 tim-brown: rudybot: x
06:47 rudybot: tim-brown: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: x in module: 'program
06:48 tim-brown: soegaard: is the error handling determining whether this is not defined or "wildcard", then?
06:58 soegaard: tim-brown: Hmm. You made me look up _ in the docs. In a normal program such as in (define _ 3) there is nothing special about _ at all. However _ is allowed as a pattern in syntax-case. When using syntax-case one can use accidentally use _ outside a pattern. Normally this would lead to an "_ is an unbound identifier" error. To improved this error message (I believe that is correct reason) _ has a transformer binding that effectively changes the error to
06:58 soegaard: "wildcard not allowed as an expression in: _".
06:59 soegaard: It would be more precise to have the error "the _  wildcard not allowed as an expression (unless previously bound) in: _"
06:59 soegaard: rudybot: (define _ 42) _
06:59 rudybot: soegaard: hmmm.. (define ((x)) 1)
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07:00 soegaard: rudybot: (let () (define _ 42) _)
07:00 rudybot: soegaard: your sandbox is ready
07:00 rudybot: soegaard: ; Value: 42
07:01 tim-brown: [BTW, this all comes from some sloppy programming on my part, but I want to be accused of the right error]
07:01 soegaard: yeah, the error is misleading if one is not using syntax-case
07:01 tim-brown: rudybot: (define woo 42) woo
07:01 rudybot: tim-brown: Woo, Debian has frozen.
07:02 tim-brown: why is rudybot being obtuse?
07:02 soegaard: No idea.
07:03 soegaard: rudybot: "Foo"
07:03 rudybot: soegaard: ; Value: "Foo"
07:03 tim-brown: the error spring from me refactoring an "anonymous" inner let function out to a define, and then forgetting to relabel the recursive calls to _
07:04 tim-brown: (define (x ...) (let _ ((acc 0) (x x) ...) (_ (add1 acc) (sub1 x))))
07:04 tim-brown: becomes:
07:04 soegaard: I usually name them "loop".
07:05 tim-brown: (define (x ...) (sub-x 0 x)) (define (sub-x acc x) (_ (add1 acc) (sub1 x)))
07:05 tim-brown: you see the oops, that i forgot to relabel the _
07:06 soegaard: I love the rename feature of syntax-check in DrRacket.
07:06 soegaard: Perfect for your case.
07:06 tim-brown: oh, not seen that... will look out for it
07:07 tim-brown: i;ve avoided loop, assuming it's an already defined form
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07:07 tim-brown: and 'inner' is used by the OO system
07:07 tim-brown: so I fell back to _
07:08 soegaard: After clicking syntax-check (or all the time if you have incremental syntax-check on) you can right click an identifier (here _) and choose rename. The all uses with the same binding is remained.
07:08 soegaard: The -> Then
07:08 tim-brown: smashing!
07:09 soegaard: remainded -> renamed
07:12 tim-brown: sounded right the first time
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08:58 WangBin: !!
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09:13 asumu: The next release will have so many features. :)
09:14 asumu: tim-brown: I don't think `loop` is used for any built-in binding.
09:14 asumu: Maybe because (let loop ...) is so common
09:16 asumu: Although mzlib/etc has a `loop-until`.
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10:26 tim-brown: printf("%2.2f"...) is there any way to format (or round) an inexact to n decimal places?
10:36 vu3rdd: tim-brown: unstable/cat has a function called catnp
10:36 vu3rdd: perhaps that will satisfy your needs?
10:36 vu3rdd: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/unstable/cat.html?q=catn#(def._((lib._unstable/cat..rkt)._catnp))
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10:43 tim-brown: ooh shiney!
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10:50 stamourv: rudybot: doc real->decimal-string
10:50 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
10:50 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/generic-numbers.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt)._real-~3edecimal-string))
10:51 stamourv: tim-brown: ^
10:51 stamourv: Re rudybot being obtuse: It tries to read the line as a single expression, otherwise, it replies with "relevant" text it has seen before.
10:52 stamourv: To evaluate a line with multiple expressions, you need to explicitly ask it to `eval', or send each expression separately.
10:52 stamourv: rudybot: (define woo 42) woo
10:52 rudybot: stamourv: woo, my commute just got 2 minutes shorter
10:52 stamourv: rudybot: eval (define woo 42) woo
10:52 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: 42
10:52 stamourv: rudybot: (define woo 42)
10:52 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
10:52 stamourv: rudybot: woo
10:52 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: 42
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11:03 tim-brown: stamourv: thx
11:04 tim-brown: dyou know how log rudybot keeps sandboxes for?
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11:09 stamourv: I don't know.
11:10 stamourv: But we can find out!
11:10 stamourv: rudybot: source
11:10 rudybot: stamourv: git clone git://github.com/offby1/rudybot.git
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11:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/zRB-tA
11:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] clarify define-extended-language example - Burke Fetscher
11:10 (part) RacketCommitBot
11:12 stamourv: tim-brown: From a quick glance at the code, it seems there's a maximum number of sandboxes, and once that's reached, the one that's been unused the longest is evicted.
11:14 soegaard: rudybot: help
11:14 rudybot: soegaard: bug <more> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, seen <nick>, uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>
11:14 soegaard: rudybot: help bug
11:14 rudybot: soegaard: bug <more> ...: You suck.
11:15 soegaard: err
11:15 stamourv: Fixing that may be worth a pull request...
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11:18 soegaard: Any thoughts on this name: http://kybernetikos.github.com/Javathcript/
11:19 stamourv: A bit too cutethy for my tathte.
11:20 soegaard: yeah - fun - but hard y
11:20 soegaard: to spell
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11:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/wKv7dg
11:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] ffi/com: remove stray quote - Matthew Flatt
11:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/gui: clarify graphical min size in docs for `text-field%' - Matthew Flatt
11:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] document `racket/mpair' and `racket/package' - Matthew Flatt
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12:18 asumu: Promise pattern matching: https://gist.github.com/3228331
12:18 asumu: (hooray for match expanders)
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12:48 mye: What is the correct #lang to use with htdp2e? In the slides http://con.racket-lang.org/matthias-slides.pdf #lang 2htdp/asl is shown but in the nightly installation I have this doesn't exist
12:48 mye: Are there differences in the languages or can I just use htdp/bsl?
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12:53 asumu: mye: choose the "Beginning Student Language" option in the language menu.
12:53 asumu: (the student languages are not currently used with the #lang syntax)
12:55 mye: asumu, but then if I write my own programs and want to run them with racket on the commandline in e.g. BSL, how does it know the language?
12:55 mye: but htdp/bsl as #lang works anyways
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12:55 mye: I was just confused by the slides and wondering if bad things might happen using htdp langues with htdp2e which I'm starting
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13:06 mithos28: asumu: do you know if my raco make bug is going to get fixed by the release. It doesn't look like it
13:09 jonrafkind: whats the bug?
13:09 jonrafkind: oh 12953
13:10 mithos28: I havn't gotten an answer back on whether or not it is important enough to make it into the release
13:11 mithos28: I'm just trying to make sure it gets into the release if it should, I run from HEAD all the time so it is not blocking for me if it doesn't get in
13:12 jonrafkind: probably kevin owns that code, i can see if he will look at it
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13:20 soegaard: mye: Haven't checked but maybe #lang htdp/asl works?
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13:58 stamourv: mithos28: It will not be fixed for the release.
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16:19 asumu: I like the definition of tail position in the reference: a position in an expression is a tail position if it has the same continuation as the whole expression.
16:20 asumu: It's really nice because it makes it obvious why continuation marks are safe for space and why you can just replace the mark.
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17:15 mye: When I select an expression from the htdp2e website with an image inside e.g. (place-image <img> 50 0 (empty-scene 100 100)) and paste in DrRacket the image is replaced with a space. Is that a bug for a feature? Probably the clipboard can't handle two types of data at once.
17:16 mye: at least on windows 7
17:16 stamourv: mye: Does it work if you copy the image separately?
17:17 mye: stamourv, yes
17:17 stamourv: Ok.
17:17 stamourv: I'd say it's a bug, but it's not clear whether the underlying windows libraries make it possible or not.
17:17 stamourv: Feel free to submit a bug report.
17:23 Cryovat: Isn't that a known one?
17:25 stamourv: Maybe.
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17:37 mye: Ha, copying in the drracket definitions window and pasting in the repl keeps the image
17:38 mye: this should use the windows clipboard too right? So in principle it might work
17:39 stamourv: Sounds reasonable.
17:40 stamourv: I don't know about other platforms, but the definitions and interaction windows should at least be consistent on the same platform.
17:41 mye: stamourv, they are, both show the image if pasted from a copy made IN DrRacket but not from a copy made from chrome
17:42 mye: oh, it looks like the program where you copy adds or remove the image
17:42 stamourv: Sorry, read what you wrote too fast. I thought you were saying chrome -> REPL worked.
17:43 mye: pasting in sublime from drracket replaces the image with a dot, pasting from a copy from chrome in sublime: no dot
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17:44 mye: so this can't be fixed, probably, too bad. Is this a windows only problem? (can't wait to have my mac arrive...)
17:45 asumu: mye: re: your earlier question, programs written in student languages aren't really meant to be run at the cmdline at the moment.
17:46 asumu: If you want to do that kind of development, you probably just want to use #lang racket.
17:46 asumu: (or use DrRacket)
17:47 mye: asumu, yeah, I thought it would be a little stupid to always run the check-* functions in a production code. Are there plans to reimplement them as submodules?
17:49 mye: I had this idea of using them for simple problems because otherwise  I keep getting distracted by all the stuff the racket lang has to offer. This is IMHO a real problem for starting to learn racket, it's big and you have to tame yourself not to try and read up about all of it before actually starting to write code.
17:50 mye: But that may be my personal problem, of course
17:51 mye: On the other hand there are the teaching languages, so not being "first class" languages also isn't cool somehow
17:52 Cryovat: Dunno if it's just me
17:52 Cryovat: But while learning Racket, I occasionally get the feeling there's several things in the language that overlap
17:53 Cryovat: Hard to name anything particular off the bat though :/
18:01 asumu: mye: well, it's not expected that anyone uses the teaching languages to write production code.
18:01 asumu: So those concerns haven't been prioritized.
18:02 asumu: You could just use #lang racket and pretend that only the BSL subset exists.
18:02 asumu: After all, you can still use check-expect and friends in #lang racket (last time I checked)
18:04 stamourv: asumu: Yes.
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18:04 stamourv: rudybot: (require test-engine/racket-tests)
18:04 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
18:05 stamourv: rudybot: (check-expect (equal? 2 2))
18:05 rudybot: stamourv: error: #<undefined>:1:0: check-expect: expects 2 arguments, but found only 1 in: (check-expect (equal? 2 2))
18:05 stamourv: How does `check-expect' work again?
18:05 stamourv: rudybot: (check-expect 2 2)
18:05 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
18:05 stamourv: rudybot: (check-expect 2 3)
18:05 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
18:05 stamourv: rudybot: (newline)
18:05 rudybot: stamourv: ; stdout: "\n"
18:05 stamourv: Hmm.
18:10 mye: Is there a testing library that uses submodules in use yet?
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18:12 asumu: mye: the typical submodule testing workflow is to use (module+ ...) and rackunit or another testing suite
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18:12 asumu: e.g., (module+ test (require rackunit) (check-equal? 2 2))
18:13 asumu: Then you can run tests with `raco test <name>.rkt`
18:14 mye: asumu, oh right. But for writing htdp style tests that would become a little cumbersome wouldn't it? So a macro that wraps this and calls it check expect would produce a lot of submodules...
18:16 asumu: It would only produce one if they used module+, which appends into a submodule.
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18:24 mye: Now that name makes more sense, I hadn't understood this :-)
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19:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/commit/44161d73c8bdce0374718d1ab0bc20fbebc1fec2
19:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust DMdA languages so they do the same error rewriting that the HtDP - Robby Findler
19:20 (part) RacketCommitBot
19:34 danl_ndi: anyone up for figuring out a syntax weirdness? this works on mzscheme 3.5, but not racket 5.2:  http://pastebin.com/6iGHKdjY
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19:42 asumu: danl_ndi: changing the inner `name` to `_` works for me. Though the snippet then has a different error.
19:43 danl_ndi: asumu: cool... i get no error when I make that change ...?
19:44 asumu: Do you have :a & :b bound somewhere?
19:44 danl_ndi: nope
19:45 asumu: Huh, odd.
19:56 mye: (require (prefix-in plot: plot)) doesnt work with #lang htdp/bsl :-( require: expected a module name as a string, a `lib' form, or a `planet' form, found a part in: (prefix-in plot: plot)
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19:57 mye: Works with #lang racket/base
19:57 mye: I need this bc. plot collides with 2htdp/image
20:00 mye: Or wait, I'll just not use the teaching languages from now on :-P
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20:12 mye: wow, rotating 3D plots, really cool
20:12 asumu: Yep, plot is awesome.
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