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01:14 mithos28: What would happen if I were to pass a function through a place-channel by using unsafe primitives?
01:16 mithos28: Could this be safe for some functions? If so what would I have to watch out for?
01:19 asumu: mithos28: I think few people know the answer to that question other than Kevin or Matthew.
01:20 asumu: What unsafe primitives would you use though? You mean like send a prefab struct through and use unsafe-struct-ref?
01:20 mithos28: I would like to shard racket-unit tests
01:21 mithos28: Hopefully the only state they hold is the module registry
01:22 mithos28: Oh unsafe primitives like casting the function to an c pointer, and passing it through
01:22 mithos28: and then casting it back. Very 'safe'.
01:22 asumu: Oh, I see. Since places allow FFI pointers.
01:22 asumu: How about serializable closures? Do those work over places?
01:22 mithos28: What are those?
01:23 mithos28: oh like the web ones?
01:23 mithos28: Those require the code to be written using them
01:23 mithos28: The idea is to take a regular racketunit suite and run it in parallel
01:23 asumu: Ah, so you don't want to re-write the definitions.
01:24 asumu: Yeah, I have no idea. I think you'd have to ask on dev.
01:24 mithos28: I'm willing to add a bit on the test suite
01:24 mithos28: when does the release happen?
01:25 asumu: I heard sometime this week.
01:25 asumu: At least that was the original plan.
01:25 mithos28: I filed a bug that I think needs to get looked at before then, but not sure. stamourv took a look this morning but didn't get back to me on it
01:26 mithos28: 12953
01:26 mithos28: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=12953
01:26 asumu: Yeah, I saw that go by.
01:27 mithos28: Is that important enough to get in the release?
01:27 asumu: and yeah, I can reproduce the problem.
01:28 asumu: Not sure, it does seem important though.
01:37 asumu: mithos28: it seems to go away if I add `path->complete-path` on line 239 of setup/paralell-build.rkt
01:37 mithos28: that seems like a reasonable thing to do given the error message. I hadn't looked at the code at all.
01:38 asumu: I'll at least reply to the bug and mention it. Don't know if that's the right fix since I don't actually understand this code, but it should point out the problem.
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01:39 asumu: Argh. I deleted the bug e-mail.
01:40 asumu: (it's okay I have backups, it turns out)
01:40 mithos28: Why would you delete email?
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01:45 asumu: Well, so it turns out I don't, in that I have a trash folder in my maildir.
01:45 asumu: But it's not a huge deal for me to delete stuff from my maildir because worst case it still lives on the IMAP server.
01:46 mithos28: ah, I do everything through gmail, so no space reason to ever delete stuff
01:47 asumu: Yeah, I have an old-fashioned mail setup from way back.
01:59 asumu: Hmm, it is weird that "raco docs" does not appear to be documented
02:00 mithos28: Right that would require a cyclic dependency. :P
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03:06 tim-brown: is there any way to (programatically) clear DrRacket's output window -- i like to spew out a lot of debug sometimes, and that seems to heavily impact performance (memory and reformatting effort in the window)
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04:37 Haffe: Hi, I asked questions about some code yesterday. http://pastebin.com/VkRTUa88 here is the relevant code. This only displays #f no matter what items are selected in the list-box.
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09:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/3_Vdqg
09:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] typo in error message - Matthew Flatt
09:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] scriblib/figure: support references to multiple figures at once - Matthew Flatt
09:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] scribble/sigplan: add guidance for `category', etc. - Matthew Flatt
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09:55 asumu: Haffe: that's because the data you haven't stored any data in any of the list items.
09:56 asumu: Each list item has a label and associated datum.
09:56 asumu: (which defaults to #f but can be any Racket value)
09:56 asumu: s/the data//
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09:57 asumu: So your code's actually working fine. If you want the label, use `get-string`
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10:58 Haffe: asumu: Ok, thanks.
10:58 Haffe: So it works like an associative list.
11:00 asumu: Saw this on Hacker News: "Scheme is racket science."
11:00 Haffe: :)
11:05 stamourv: asumu: Link?
11:05 asumu: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4310903
11:07 stamourv: Heh.
11:07 asumu: Also, I think we need an excerpted "10-minute guide" for experienced programmers new to Racket (re: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4310286)
11:11 vu3rdd: Hello Racketeers..
11:11 asumu: Hi
11:12 vu3rdd: I am trying to implement a remote procedure call over network.. something like slime but very simple at this point..
11:13 vu3rdd: when I send a form, the other side gets an s-exp and the params.
11:13 vu3rdd: I extract the procedure name and apply it to the args.
11:13 vu3rdd: But this fails because it is unable to resolve the given symbol as a procedure.
11:14 vu3rdd: I am still trying to grok namespaces and the various mechanisms available to play with it.
11:15 vu3rdd: But I am unable to understand what is really going on. Why can't a procedure defined in the same module be invoked, given a symbol name..
11:16 vu3rdd: I tried passing the received name through namespace-variable-value..
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11:21 asumu: vu3rdd: you could use eval to do this potentially, but it might be better to just write a small interpreter to handle the messages.
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11:21 asumu: Assuming you're only going to have a pre-defined set of messages.
11:22 asumu: Also, symbols are *not* identifiers so you can't resolve them to a binding without reflective mechanisms like eval.
11:23 stamourv: asumu++
11:23 vu3rdd: yes, but later, it can be custom forms. eg: emacs sending a form for evaluation to a remote instance.
11:24 stamourv: vu3rdd: Before you use `eval', Matthew's blog post is required reading. Let me find the link for you.
11:24 vu3rdd: stamourv: yes, I have read that. I will go through it again.
11:29 vu3rdd: stamourv: This one, right? http://blog.racket-lang.org/2011/10/on-eval-in-dynamic-languages-generally.html
11:29 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/62xs38x
11:31 stamourv: Yep, that's the one. :)
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11:31 stamourv: That's the clearest treatment of the subject I've ever seen.
11:31 vu3rdd: stamourv: thanks.
11:32 vu3rdd: btw, you guys rock!
11:33 stamourv: Racket makes rocking easy. ;)
11:33 vu3rdd: I am having a lot of fun reading some of the papers written by the PLT folks. Still years away from understanding them completely.. but whatever I am understanding had been great education to me..
11:33 stamourv: If you have any questions about them, feel free to ask!
11:34 vu3rdd: thanks. I am currently reading "Kill-Safe synchronization Abstractions".. which led me to CML.
11:35 stamourv: Along these lines, you may want to check out https://github.com/aturon/Caper
11:35 stamourv: I'm not sure it's completely done yet, but it sounds awesome.
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11:38 vu3rdd: stamourv: thanks. That looks really awesome!
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11:54 vu3rdd: ok, so I made a namespace using make-base-namespace and eval'ed a definition of a function inside that namespace.
11:54 vu3rdd: now, I am able to call it from the remote side.
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12:47 vu3rdd: "Functional MzScheme DSLs in Game Development" -- http://cufp.org/videos/functional-mzscheme-dsls-game-development
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12:54 Haffe: I heard Ratchet & Clank was written in LISP.
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13:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/lELMLA
13:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [Distributed Places] added #:thunk and #:named keyword arguments to distributed place creation functions - Kevin Tew
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15:56 PfhorSlayer: Haffe: Are you thinking of GOAL?
15:56 PfhorSlayer: (And Jak and Daxter?)
15:59 PfhorSlayer: Oh, hah
15:59 PfhorSlayer: I didn't see the link before
15:59 PfhorSlayer: That's danl_ndi.
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16:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/pON7hw
16:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [Distributed Places] fix failing drdr tests - Kevin Tew
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17:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/b1KKqw
17:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix type for dynamic-place. - Vincent St-Amour
17:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix documentation for packages and mutable lists. - Vincent St-Amour
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19:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] removed (unused) reference to not-break-exn? - Ryan Culpepper
19:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] find syntax properties to transfer at compile time - Ryan Culpepper
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22:50 adu: what does this mean?
22:50 adu: compile: bad syntax; function application is not allowed, because no #%app syntax transformer is bound
22:51 mithos28: It means that the namespace that you are trying to compile in is bad
22:51 mithos28: it is missing some of the primitives normally exported by racket or racket/base
22:51 mithos28: particular the one that is used for function application
22:52 mithos28: Can you paste the code that is doing this?
22:52 adu: ok
22:53 adu: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130792
22:53 adu: I'm just trying to get the datum without the #%top and #%app
22:54 mithos28: ah so one issue you will run into is compiling the gos module
22:55 adu: btw this is just an experiement
22:55 adu: I'm trying to learn about (expand)
22:55 mithos28: you shouldn't define #%app as #%app there because then it will use that #%app within the module
22:55 adu: ok
22:55 mithos28: you should define it as something else say app, and use rename-out
22:56 mithos28: So you also need to expand in a namespace, not just eval
22:56 adu: isn't that what I'm doing?
22:57 mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Expanding_Top-Level_Forms.html?q=expand#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._expand))
22:57 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ckmbzq4
22:57 mithos28: No you are only using the namespace for eval
22:58 adu: which doesn't override dynamic parameters
22:58 adu: i see
22:59 mithos28: does the example from the docs help enough for now?
23:00 adu: i think so
23:00 mithos28: Ask again if you get stuck.
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23:06 asumu: I always forget that installing Debian from the stable CD is a bad idea when I have a new machine...
23:06 mithos28: Why would you want recent software?
23:07 asumu: So my ethernet card actually works. Got it working with a backported kernel though. Now upgrading it to testing.
23:09 vu3rdd: asumu: I usually do netinst
23:10 vu3rdd: I run debian unstable
23:10 vu3rdd: there is also a mini iso somewhere which can boot from a USB stick.
23:11 asumu: Yeah, that's what I tried recently with a new desktop machine. Didn't work for some reason though.
23:23 adu: mithos28: now I'm getting a different error
23:23 adu: gos/main.rkt:6:4: compile: unbound identifier in the transformer environment (and no #%app syntax transformer is bound) at: lambda in: (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx (case! else2) ((_ e c1 ...) (syntax (case! e c1 ...)))))
23:24 mithos28: Can you show your current code now
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23:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/A3s_qg
23:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add a test case for check-expect expressions where the first position has an error - Robby Findler
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23:26 adu: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130793
23:27 mithos28: you need to either change your racket/base to a racket or add (require (for-syntax racket/base)) to your gos module
23:27 mithos28: the issue is that you need racket/base bound at phase1
23:27 adu: what's a phase?
23:27 mithos28: it is part of how macros
23:27 mithos28: work
23:28 mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/stx-phases.html?q=phases
23:28 mithos28: Basically separating out compile time from execution time
23:29 mithos28: Also if you are feeling more adventurous http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/macromod.pdf
23:30 jonrafkind: didn't i write some nonsense about phases. it should be in the manual somewhere
23:30 mithos28: first hit on google found the mail archive of that post
23:31 mithos28: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/guide/phases.html?q=phases#(part._.Phases_and_.Bindings)
23:32 mithos28: Only in the pre release docs
23:32 adu: yey, now I get (#%app case! x (#%app (#%app y) z) (#%app else2 a))
23:32 jonrafkind: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/guide/phases.html?q=phase#(tech._phase)
23:32 jonrafkind: oh lulz mithos28 beat me
23:34 adu: mithos28: well, there are two things I'd like to be able to do after this experiment
23:35 adu: First is to use define-syntax on arbitrary sexprs not really sexprs that are going to be evaluated,
23:36 adu: and second, making a racket language module
23:36 mithos28: Have you looked at danny's tutorial on brainfuck?
23:36 mithos28: That will help you with the second
23:36 adu: nope
23:37 mithos28: http://hashcollision.org/brainfudge/
23:37 adu: it seems define-syntax/syntax-rules is really easy to use for code that gets eval'd but really hard to use for arbitrary sexprs
23:38 mithos28: I'm not sure what you mean by arbitrary sexprs
23:38 adu: data
23:38 mithos28: Can you give an example of what you want to do?
23:39 adu: maybe this might help:
23:39 adu: https://github.com/andydude/go2gos
23:39 adu: https://github.com/andydude/gos2go
23:39 adu: I've written converters that turn Go code into sexprs
23:40 adu: and visaversa
23:40 adu: and having done that for other purposes, I realized it might be useful to do metaprogramming, which is currently not possible in Go
23:41 adu: using define-syntax, etc.
23:41 mithos28: Right but I don't get what you mean by 'arbitrary sexprs not really sexprs that are going to be evaluated'
23:42 adu: heh
23:42 adu: they are evaluated
23:42 adu: but not by the expander, they would be evaluated by the go compiler
23:43 mithos28: Ah I'm not sure why you want to use define syntax then
23:43 adu: should I be using something else?
23:43 adu: like with-syntax?
23:44 mithos28: Let me see if I get your pipeline correct
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23:44 mithos28: go source code -> go ast -> go ast in sexp form -> magic transformations -> different go ast in sexp form -> go ast -> compiled go code
23:45 adu: (1) Take some go app, run go2gos, (2) Add some macros you couldn't in go, (3) expand with racket, (4) run gos2go, (5) compile with go compiler
23:45 mithos28: and you are trying to implement the magic transformations
23:45 adu: I suppose
23:45 mithos28: So the problem with using expand, is that it will only stop once you reach core racket forms
23:46 mithos28: Which is not what you really want to do
23:46 adu: so I would have to write my own expander anyways
23:47 mithos28: I think so
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23:47 adu: there isn't some predicate like core-form? that I can pass to expand?
23:48 mithos28: You could use local-expand
23:48 mithos28: But I think you will be fighting against the tools if you do it that way
23:49 adu: I might use match
23:49 mithos28: the expander is about taking complicated macro code and turning it into racket core code
23:49 adu: that would at least get me half-way to syntax-rules
23:49 mithos28: I think match or syntax-parse are what you want
23:49 adu: well, thanks for the help
23:50 mithos28: no problem
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