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00:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bsoNrQ
00:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust bitmap test - Robby Findler
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00:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/idoBMw
00:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] brought up to date with version number - Robby Findler
00:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] bring drracket history file up to date - Robby Findler
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04:45 tim-brown: is there an arithmetic not equals operator in racket? (like C's !=) ?
04:46 tim-brown: i can compose (not (= ...)) or a load of other compositions, but simply can't find a !=
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08:26 hkBst: tim-brown: nope, doesn't exist AFAIK
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08:31 tim-brown: hkBst: bit of an oversight that?
08:35 hkBst: tim-brown: IDK, it's easy enough to use `not' or inverse branches of `if's, or switch between `when' and `unless'... or write your own if-not macro.
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08:50 tim-brown: but by that logic, why bother with >= and <= ? quite often, i use >= as more of a shorthand for (not (< ...))
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09:07 hkBst_: tim-brown: that only works when you have 2 arguments, but these operators act on any number of arguments so your equality does not hold universally!
09:07 hkBst_: rudybot: eval (< 1 2 3)
09:07 rudybot: hkBst_: your sandbox is ready
09:07 rudybot: hkBst_: ; Value: #t
09:08 hkBst_: rudybot: eval (< 1 2 2 3)
09:08 rudybot: hkBst_: ; Value: #f
09:08 hkBst_: rudybot: eval (not (>= 1 2 2 3))
09:08 rudybot: hkBst_: ; Value: #t
09:08 hkBst_: see, not the same
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09:14 tim-brown: maybe i gave a narrow-minded / C-minded e.g. there
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09:16 tim-brown: although:
09:17 tim-brown: rudybot: eval (values (= 1 1 1 1 1 1) (not (=  1 1 1 1 1 1)) (let ((!= (compose not =))) (!= 1 1 1 1 1 1)))
09:17 rudybot: tim-brown: your sandbox is ready
09:17 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value: #t
09:17 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value#2: #f
09:17 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value#3: #f
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09:18 tim-brown: (values (= 1 2 1 1 1 1) (not (=  1 2 1 1 1 1)) (let ((!= (compose not =))) (!= 1 2 1 1 1 1)))
09:18 tim-brown: rudybot: eval(values (= 1 2 1 1 1 1) (not (=  1 2 1 1 1 1)) (let ((!= (compose not =))) (!= 1 2 1 1 1 1)))
09:18 rudybot: tim-brown: then, someone can come by and compose the two. "cs = ConStream(); hw(cs)"
09:18 tim-brown: rudybot: eval (values (= 1 2 1 1 1 1) (not (=  1 2 1 1 1 1)) (let ((!= (compose not =))) (!= 1 2 1 1 1 1)))
09:18 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value: #f
09:18 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value#2: #t
09:18 rudybot: tim-brown: ; Value#3: #t
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09:19 hkBst_: tim-brown: arguably != on many arguments means that they are all different... which is different from (not (== ...))
09:20 hkBst_: or at the least pair-wise not the same
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10:08 tim-brown: hkBst_: not such a bad idea... although you might be describing something akin to set?
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10:13 asumu: Also if you have !=, what would be the equivalents for equal?, eqv?, eq?
10:14 asumu: Using `not` seems more uniform in this case.
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10:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/ej_GiA
10:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix error message wording - Robby Findler
10:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add big "definitions" and "interactions" labels to the drracket - Robby Findler
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11:35 tim-brown: asumu: i was using C language, rather than proposing a prefix for racket
11:36 tim-brown: "not-" as a prefix would work uniformly, some folk (pascal?) use "<>" for not equal
11:37 tim-brown: s/not equal/not arithmetically equal/
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11:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to release: http://git.io/csBjZQ
11:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Use `string-no-nuls?' and `bytes-no-nuls?' in more docs & error messages. - Eli Barzilay
11:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] repair hack for beginner-proc names - John Clements
11:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Update TR history. - Vincent St-Amour
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11:50 DanBurton: Typed Racket question: How can I convince TR that (Pairof Foo (U Bar Baz)) is the same as (U (Pairof Foo Bar) (Pairof Foo Baz)) ?
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11:55 stamourv: DanBurton: Do you have an example?
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12:00 DanBurton: stamourv: sure, give me a minute to simplify it to just the essentials
12:02 DanBurton: contrived example: http://pastebin.com/WuxPzgNK
12:02 DanBurton: this causes an error, saying it expected the one type when it got the other
12:03 DanBurton: interestingly, if you switch the two around, then it works
12:03 stamourv: DanBurton: AFAIK, there's not way to just tell TR that two types are the same.
12:03 DanBurton: it seems to know how to push the U in, but not how to pull it out
12:04 stamourv: But, if you show me what you're trying to do, we can try to figure out something.
12:04 chimeracoder: stamourv: doesn't Racket have the equivalent of Haskell's newtype?
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12:04 stamourv: chimeracoder: You can give a name to a type, but that's not the same as asserting that two types are equivalent.
12:05 chimeracoder: stamourv: What I meant was, perhaps one could then be defined in terms of the other, but I realize that doesn't work here
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12:06 DanBurton: Typed Racket's type system is crazy weird
12:07 DanBurton: it's so powerful, which is of course a double-edged sword
12:08 mithos28: DanBurton: The issue is whether you are testing if the union is a subtype of the pair of the union or the other way around
12:08 DanBurton: correct, testing if the union is a subtype of the pair of the union
12:09 mithos28: In the case when foo is defined as the union, each case is a subtype of the pair of the union so it works
12:10 DanBurton: oh right
12:10 mithos28: The other way is harder because each case only covers part of the pair of union type
12:10 chimeracoder: DanBurton: How is it more powerful than simple HM? I haven't really delved enough to figure out the differences
12:11 mithos28: and I think the currently implemented rule is that it is a subtype only if it is a subtype of one case
12:11 chimeracoder: all I know is that the inference isn't automatic, the way Haskell's is :-/
12:11 mithos28: chimeracoder: It understands how if works on predicates that check the type tags.
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12:12 chimeracoder: ah
12:12 mithos28: i.e. in the true branch where the test was (string? x), we know that x has type String
12:12 mithos28: even if outside the if it has type (U String #f)
12:13 mithos28: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/racket/pubs/icfp10-thf.pdf
12:13 Haffe: In the gui toolkit, is there a way to make a frame visible at creation?
12:13 mithos28: Thats the paper that describes the type system
12:13 Haffe: I.e. emulating the behaviour of (send frame show #t)
12:14 asumu: tim-brown: fair enough, but (not-equal? ...) isn't sufficiently more concise than (not (equal? ...)) to make it worthwhile, I think
12:14 asumu: (I imagine that's why it hasn't been done)
12:14 mithos28: Haffe: Is there a problem with just doing that after constructing it?
12:15 DanBurton: chimeracoder: Haskell's inference is automatic becaues its type system is *less* powerful, meaning it is easier to infer
12:16 chimeracoder: Er, I understand that tradeoff; I just haven't come into a situation yet where Haskell's types couldn't do something Racket's could
12:16 chimeracoder: the only limitation I've ever come into myself with Haskell's types is with dependent types, but I also don't use Haskell too much
12:16 DanBurton: Haskell has no subtyping, for one thing (well, except via typeclasses)
12:17 asumu: chimeracoder: a simple example is that Haskell can't do untagged unions.
12:17 stamourv: chimeracoder: Re TR more powerful than HM: As mithos28 said, occurrence typing. But that's only part of it. There's also subtyping, true unions, function intersection types, variable-arity polymorphism, etc.
12:18 DanBurton: whether or not you "need" all of those fancy things is another question entirely, but yeah, Haskell has none of those
12:18 asumu: My guess is that neither is actually strictly more powerful than the other though.
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12:18 asumu: TR doesn't have type classes, for example.
12:18 mithos28: What would more powerful mean?
12:18 Haffe: mithos28: I have to assign the newly created frame a name.
12:18 asumu: I don't have a real definition. *waves hands*
12:18 stamourv: chimeracoder: With things like that, you can have functions with optional / keyword arguments, which is the #1 thing I miss when I have to do Haskell.
12:18 DanBurton: "more powerful" means it can certify that more programs are well-typed. Under that definition, TR's is much more powerful.
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12:19 mithos28: DanBurton: There are programs that haskell can type that TR cannot
12:19 chimeracoder: DanBurton: Yes, but what I don't understand is why it can't (doesn't?) certify the programs that Haskell can
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12:20 DanBurton: mithos28: are you referring to typeclasses?
12:20 chimeracoder: Or rather, it doesn't seem to be a strict superset, and I don't understand why the programs that can typecheck in Haskell (or at least, that the compiler can infer) don't in Racket
12:20 mithos28: No I am refering to its very weak inference method
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12:20 mithos28: I'm trying to find the bug i filed
12:20 tim-brown: asumu: different?
12:21 chimeracoder: Yeah, the inference is what I was getting at; maybe that's a separate issue
12:21 chimeracoder is still learning about type systems
12:21 DanBurton: according to me, the power of a language's inference is inversely proportional to the power of its type system
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12:22 DanBurton: when talking about languages that even care about types, let's leave Java et all out of it >.>
12:22 chimeracoder: As for untagged unions, is that analogous to the runtime errors that Java's type erasure causes?
12:22 chimeracoder: I haven't used Java in a while, but I remember bumping into those
12:23 tim-brown: strangely english doesn't seem to have a more succinct word for not-equal? available to us
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12:23 DanBurton: tim-brown: just use the unicode symbol?
12:23 nilyaK: unequal?
12:23 chimeracoder: unequal?
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12:24 tim-brown: uneq? uneqv? unequal? un=
12:24 tim-brown: hmm
12:24 DanBurton: !eq?
12:25 mithos28: rudybot: init typed/racket
12:25 rudybot: mithos28: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
12:25 tim-brown: oooh... i've been reprimanded for using ! today
12:25 DanBurton: lol, go the haskell way: /=
12:25 mithos28: rudybot: eval (filter values (list 1 2 3))
12:25 rudybot: mithos28: error: Type Checker: Summary: 2 errors encountered
12:25 DanBurton: backwards "not so sure" face
12:25 mithos28: rudybot: eval "Give me my error message"
12:25 rudybot: mithos28: ; Value: "Give me my error message"
12:26 rudybot: mithos28: ; stdout: "- : String\n"
12:26 rudybot: mithos28: ; stderr: "#<undefined>:1:8: Type Checker: Expected (a -> Any), but got (All (a ...) (a ... a -> (values a ... a))) in: values\n#<undefined>:1:15: Type Checker: Expected (Listof a), but got (List One Positive-Byte Positive-Byte) in: (#%app list (quote 1) (quote 2) (quote 3))\n"
12:26 tim-brown: then we enter the world of prolog's /=, =/=, /==
12:27 tim-brown: re unicode... not being able to easily us it on IRC puts the crimp on that
12:28 tim-brown: s/us/use
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12:32 DanBurton: If I make a predicate (define-predicate list-of-foo? (Listof Foo)), then when I use list-of-foo? will it traverse the entire list checking if each element is a Foo, regardless of type information available?
12:33 mithos28: DanBurton: I believe so
12:34 mithos28: There is no information that list-of-foo? is side affect free
12:34 mithos28: effect*
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12:41 DanBurton: Well here was my ugly annoying workaround for the U/Pairof debacle: http://pastebin.com/aWnki44H
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12:54 tim-brown: Ping!
12:54 Araq: pong
12:54 jonrafkind: pringles
12:55 tim-brown: Well, that works the
12:55 tim-brown: n
12:56 DanBurton: I wish define-predicate were first-class
12:57 DanBurton: I'd rather (define foo? (make-predicate Foo)) than (define-predicate foo? Foo)
12:57 DanBurton: or rather, I'd like to use (make-predicate Foo) inline rather than having to name it
12:59 mithos28: DanBurton: file a bug, I'll try to take a look later to see what that would require
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13:00 DanBurton: ok
13:00 jonrafkind: you can probably turn any definition into an expression by doing (let definer name)
13:00 jonrafkind: and then macrotize it
13:01 mithos28: jonrafkind: No, because that moves the definer from module context to internal-definition context
13:01 jonrafkind: yea so what
13:01 mithos28: which can allow it to be executed more than once
13:02 jonrafkind: so what
13:02 mithos28: in many cases this might not be a problem, I'm guessing in TR there will be an issue. For example you cannot move struct definitions into an internal definition context and have the types work
13:03 jonrafkind: oh rofl
13:03 DanBurton: define-predicate only works at the top level
13:03 mithos28: for structs its because TR ensures that you cannot use the genericity of structs
13:04 mithos28: I don't see a reason for define-predicate, but I'll need to look at the implementation
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13:12 DanBurton: mithos28: here you go http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=12939
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13:13 DanBurton: mithos28_: here you go http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=12939
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16:14 ASau: eli: I don't know which mailing list you added me to, but I didn't receive any notification. :)
16:14 ASau: eli: anyway, I have run tests and racket crashed.
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16:34 DanBurton: samth: Hey, is it feasible to add sub_union_factor_right and sub_union_factor_left type judgements to TR? http://pastebin.com/fXMrJnxr
16:35 samth: DanBurton, can you send me an email about that?
16:35 DanBurton: ok
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16:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 9 new commits to master: http://git.io/nlvMUg
16:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Refactoring. - Vincent St-Amour
16:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix Optimization Coach menu entry point. - Vincent St-Amour
16:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Move panel to the frame mixin instead of the tab mixin. - Vincent St-Amour
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17:10 jonrafkind: eli, the unix installer thing wasn't fixed yet right?
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20:17 danl_ndi: nzyvqheindzmctev
20:17 danl_ndi: did i get that right?
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20:24 bremner: dunno, it's your password.
20:24 jonrafkind: put in your social security number and credit card and ill check for you
20:25 ASau: You'll need CVV2 for the latter.
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20:29 offby1: danl_ndi: I think you misspelled the 'x'
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20:31 danl_ndi: offby1: yes... x-nzyvqheindzmctev
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23:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/3-3ZEQ
23:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Note `require' of a `main' submodule for `-t', `-l', and `-p' - Matthew Flatt
23:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] remove bad `return's - Matthew Flatt
23:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `for/vector' to really stop at size - Matthew Flatt
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