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03:03 cky: rudybot: (call-with-values (lambda () (call/cc (lambda (k) (k k k)))) (lambda (x y) (procedure-arity y)))
03:03 rudybot: cky: your sandbox is ready
03:03 rudybot: cky: ; Value: #(struct:arity-at-least 0)
03:04 cky: ^ This is something I don't quite understand; surely, the current continuation at the call/cc call is the lambda on the right hand side, and thus its arity should be 2, right?
03:04 cky: Hmm. Maybe I should ask this on Stack Overflow instead. ;-)
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03:20 cky: http://stackoverflow.com/q/11339541/13
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05:39 hkBst: cky: you mean out of the 3 lambdas on the right hand side, there is one that is so special it is `the' lambda?
05:40 hkBst: even rhs makes little sense without an `='...
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09:21 tim-brown: does twitter's @fogus lurk about here?
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10:37 hkBst: is there some way to output byte-strings in hexadecimal representation instead of octal?
10:39 ozzloy: hkBst, http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Writing.html?q=format#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._fprintf)) look at ~x
10:44 ozzloy: http://pastebin.com/yjq78kfK server http://pastebin.com/wyR5UgDV client.  what's wrong with my tcp server and client code?
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10:46 ozzloy: the code and examle run for both is less than 60 lines long.  all i'm trying to do is set up a server, connect to it, send data in both directions and close up shop
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10:50 ozzloy: the server side does get "client sayig hey!\n" but doesn't actually display it until i hit ^C on the client side
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10:51 tim-brown: ozzloy: do you (flush-output) when you've read/printed the message from the client?
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10:52 ozzloy: tim-brown, sure do.  i have it pastebined too
10:52 ozzloy: at the bottom is an example of me running it
10:52 ozzloy: lines 10 and 11 on test-tcp-client.rkt
10:58 hkBst: ozzloy: it's waiting for the rest of the 1024 bytes?
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11:00 tim-brown: i'd (sync server-in) then (read-bytes-avail! ...) or one of that family
11:01 tim-brown: (and prolly need to do the same on the client
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11:06 ozzloy: hkBst, from the documentation, it sounded like it would read *up to* 1024 bytes.  i'll try the sync thing
11:07 tim-brown: http://pastebin.com/JedutPsc
11:07 tim-brown: ozzloy: http://pastebin.com/JedutPsc
11:08 tim-brown: the client doesn't have that problem cos the server closes its socket. but you *would* have that issue if you went all conversational
11:11 ozzloy: tim-brown, thanks!
11:11 ozzloy: tim-brown, "went all conversational"?
11:11 tim-brown: ozzloy: it's uber-sloppy code
11:11 ozzloy: it's explorative
11:12 ozzloy: i'm just trying to test out how tcp stuff works
11:12 tim-brown: sorry, that younded pointed at you -- i was commenting on my two line's worth
11:12 tim-brown: s/yound/sound/
11:13 tim-brown: you'll have an issue when you send a message clent to server to client to server -- then the client will block in the same way
11:13 ozzloy: actually, i would really like if you could rewrite it more idiomatically and nicer
11:13 ozzloy: the sloppy code that i wrote
11:14 tim-brown: my idiom is that of someone who writes poll() loops in C, which might not be proper racket idiom
11:14 ozzloy: or point me at some racket code that does tcp stuff nicely
11:14 ozzloy: heh
11:15 tim-brown: i'd imagine the web server is a good place to start
11:17 ozzloy: "the web server" is http://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/index.html ?
11:17 nilyaK: I have a pretty pathetic program that connects to a friend's IRC server and idles there forever, but I can't get it for you until after work as it's on a desktop machine at home that is currently off. I don't know if that would help at all =/
11:17 ozzloy: nilyaK, it would!
11:17 tim-brown: i guess so -- firing from the hip a bit tbh
11:17 ozzloy: (even if only as an example of what not to do ;)
11:17 nilyaK: hah :)
11:18 ozzloy: *ba-zing!*
11:18 nilyaK: I get home in about 6 hours so if I don't remember please remind me, but otherwise I'll write a physical note and put it in my wallet with my bus card so I should remember anyway.
11:18 ozzloy: i'll be on a train in 6 hours
11:18 ozzloy: and a plane after that
11:19 ozzloy: and then sleep
11:19 nilyaK: well, I can email you if you have a public address and then you can find it later!
11:19 ozzloy: so ... i'll remind you tomorrow maybe
11:19 nilyaK: okay
11:19 nilyaK: that works too
11:19 ozzloy: ozzloy@gmail.com
11:19 ozzloy: so public i even give it out on IRC
11:19 ozzloy: i'm living on the edge
11:19 nilyaK: yes I was going to say
11:19 ozzloy: thanks tim-brown and nilyaK
11:25 hkBst: ozzloy: I think it tries to read up to 1024 bytes as long as the port remains open, which it does in your program. Once it gets closed by your C-C'ing the read succeeds in reading only the bytes that you sent.
11:27 hkBst: ozzloy: why not terminate your (byte-)string with a newline and read-byte-line or something?
11:30 ozzloy: hkBst, i'll try that out and see what happens.  tim-brown's thing worked.
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11:33 tim-brown: quck and dirty: http://pastebin.com/Lf7GcBYc
11:33 tim-brown: it seems to have some "SPAM" trigger words in it... pastebin claims it could be the work of rudybot
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11:44 ozzloy: tim-brown, thanks!
11:45 ozzloy: tim-brown, probably the exclamation points and the word "hack"
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11:48 tim-brown: hmmm, it seems that pastebin disapproves of code that contains too many mutators!
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12:02 (part) tim-brown: "night all!"
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13:30 tonyg: Is there a way to make errortrace the default when I run "racket somefile.rkt"?
13:30 tonyg: I could alias racket to "racket -l errortrace -t" but that seems fragile
13:32 asumu: Maybe add it to your .racketrc?
13:32 asumu: (maybe that'd only work for the REPL so nevermind)
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13:33 tonyg: asumu: yeah, that doesn't work for "racket somefile.rkt"
13:35 tonyg: perhaps i'll just have to have a separate alias that I get used to using.
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13:35 tonyg: erracket
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16:41 asumu: eli: what was the issue you had with foo/bar style submodule paths?
16:42 asumu: In an old e-mail  you mentioned using this for subpages for plt-scheme.org and it being a mess.
16:42 asumu: (context: the submod require form is still really verbose)
16:42 asumu: (and really weird if you're coming from most languages that reserve dots and slashes for things like this)
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19:01 yoklov: hm, in the third example in the docs on futures: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/performance.html#(part._effective-futures) , e.g. (or (any-double? l1) (touch f)) will that actually work? I would think (any-double? l1) would be evaluated before the call to touch even occurred...
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19:04 stamourv: yoklov: That's right.
19:04 stamourv: But the future may be running in parallel.
19:04 stamourv: (That is, while `(any-double? l1)' is running.)
19:04 yoklov: hm
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19:04 stamourv: So, you do need to finish computing `(any-double? l1)' before giving a result, but you can do both at the same time.
19:05 yoklov: err, so it might start running as soon as the call to future occurs?
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19:05 yoklov: i had thought that the call to touch, err, "started" the future
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19:07 yoklov: though, that seems to be wrong now that i look at more docs
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20:59 yoklov: is a sequence the only datatype which can hold elements with multiple values?
21:02 yoklov: if that's even a reasonable way to think about it
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21:15 mhr__: why can't I use #lang r6rs?
21:15 mhr__: in dr. racket, I mean
21:17 adu: mhr__: because it doesn't work so well
21:18 mhr__: the error that was produced was "r6rs does not support a REPL" which surprised me.  is there eta for when r6rs will be usable in dr. racket?
21:18 adu: I've hacked it so that you can use r6rs in the interaction window, but it output everything with { } instead of ( )
21:19 adu: mhr__: if you want I can tell you what I did
21:19 mhr__: yes please
21:22 adu: ok, first, what os are you using?
21:22 mhr__: windows 7
21:23 adu: ok, find where Racket is installed
21:23 adu: I have no idea where that is on windows
21:23 mhr__: me neither, actually, hold on please
21:24 mhr__: found it
21:24 adu: then find .../collects/r6rs/main.rkt
21:24 mhr__: C:\Program Files (x86)\Racket
21:24 adu: ok is there a collects dir?
21:24 mhr__: yup
21:24 mhr__: I found main.rkt
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21:26 adu: at the end of main.rkt add the definition: "(define-syntax (top-interaction stx) #'(top-level-body stx))"
21:26 adu: without quotes
21:27 mhr__: well that's bizarre, I tried to save it, and it said "access denied"
21:27 adu: and at the beginning change: (provide (rename-out [module-begin #%module-begin])) to (provide (rename-out [module-begin #%module-begin] [top-level-body #%top-interaction]))
21:27 adu: hmm you might only need the second one
21:29 mhr__: I can't make any changes at all and save them...that's really odd.  I'll just stick to r5rs, then, thank you though
21:29 adu: anyways that's it
21:29 adu: if you're admin then you shouldn't have any trouble editing files
21:30 mhr__: I'm positive I am, though, that's the thing
21:30 mhr__: huh, I'll have to do some investigating
21:31 adu: oh yea, you don't need the first one
21:31 adu: just add "[top-level-body #%top-interaction]"
21:31 adu: that's all
21:32 asumu: mhr__: Don't use R6RS if you're using Racket.
21:33 asumu: Just use #lang racket.
21:34 mhr__: yes, but I was attracted to scheme because of the minimalist philosophy, and racket's website repeatedly stresses that it's philosophy is not that
21:34 asumu: What do you mean by "minimalist"?
21:34 asumu: Or rather, what's the point?
21:35 asumu: Racket's for practical programming and has lots of features, but you don't need to use those if you don't want to.
21:35 mhr__: well, that it's has a "small standard core"
21:35 asumu: The same thing applies to Racket.
21:35 mhr__: well, I realize that now, haha
21:35 mhr__: thanks
21:36 asumu: Racket's core syntax only has these forms: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/syntax-model.html?q=core%20form#(part._fully-expanded)
21:36 asumu: Everything else is built on top of that.
21:37 asumu: I guess what I'm trying to say is this: using R5RS/R6RS limits you because the language just won't let you do certain things. But you could also just use Racket and avoid features you dislike.
21:37 asumu: This is probably easier in the long run because then the limitations of RNRS won't get in your way.
21:37 mhr__: point taken
21:38 mhr__: are there major differences between r5rs and racket?
21:38 asumu: (JFYI: not trying to flame or anything, just think in the long run this will be less frustrating)
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21:38 asumu: mhr__: the most important is probably the module system.
21:38 adu: mhr__: probably the most common difference I run into is set-car!
21:38 asumu: R5RS does not have any kind of module system, so you can't organize your code into distributable, self-contained units.
21:38 adu: racket calls set-car! set-mcar!
21:39 mhr__: okay, good tip, and what is set-car?
21:39 asumu: rudybot: (require racket/mcons)
21:39 rudybot: asumu: error: default-load-handler: cannot open input file: "/mnt/racket-5.2.900.1/collects/racket/mcons.rkt" (No such file or directory; errno=2)
21:40 asumu: rudybot: (require racket/mpair)
21:40 rudybot: asumu: Done.
21:40 asumu: rudybot: (set-car! (mcons 1 '()))
21:40 rudybot: asumu: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: set-car! in module: 'program
21:40 ski: mhr__ : btw, see private message
21:41 asumu: rudybot: (set-mcar! (mcons 1 '()) 3)
21:41 rudybot: asumu: Done.
21:41 asumu: Oh, whoops, it didn't print the resulting cons pair.
21:41 asumu: rudybot: (define x (mcons 1 '()))
21:41 rudybot: asumu: Done.
21:42 asumu: rudybot: (set-mcar! x 3)
21:42 rudybot: asumu: Done.
21:42 asumu: rudybot: x
21:42 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: {3}
21:42 asumu: mhr__: ^
21:42 asumu: They are mutable pairs.
21:44 mhr__: ah
21:46 asumu: mhr__: if you're curious about this, there's a blog article about this http://blog.racket-lang.org/2007/11/getting-rid-of-set-car-and-set-cdr.html
21:46 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/2bws4fr
21:47 asumu: (note: this was written when Racket was still called PLT Scheme)
21:47 mhr__: there's no difference between racket and plt scheme, right?  it's just a name
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21:49 asumu: Racket's goal is to be a practical language, so the name change was to just indicate that it's not Scheme.
21:49 asumu: In that its goals are not to be just a teaching language or a small language.
21:49 asumu: (or just a research language, for that matter)
21:50 asumu: Otherwise, the same people work on it (and this goal was there before the name change too).
21:51 mhr__: well, the reason I wanted to learn scheme was to get the benefits of learning a cool language with interesting concepts, pretty much
21:51 mhr__: if racket's got that, I'll just stick with racket
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21:53 asumu: mhr__: I think so, yes. I like the fact that Racket has features like contracts, modules and so on.
21:55 mhr__: I'm not sure if schemers and racketers (is that the term?) like this to be a good reason for new people coming to a language, but I also tried scheme because I heard it was good for AI
21:55 (quit) carleastlund: Quit: carleastlund
21:56 asumu: Close. Racketeer. ;) It's as good a reason as any other. I think I mentioned yesterday though that "good for AI" is mostly historical though.
21:56 asumu: In that a lot of the people who worked on AI back then were at places like MIT that were heavily working on Lisp, Scheme, Lisp Machines, and so on.
21:57 asumu: If Racket makes it easier to write AI programs, it will probably just be due to being generally easy to write programs in it.
21:57 mhr__: I see.  It can't hurt to say that racket is good for ai anyway because it's a good language regardless
21:58 asumu: Yes, exactly.
21:58 mhr__: is there a dialect of scheme that the majority use or is it evenly fragmented?
21:59 asumu: The big ones are probably Racket, Guile, and Chicken.
22:00 ski: mhr__ : Racket includes Scheme in the more restriced sense
22:00 mhr__: so racket's a superset of scheme
22:01 mhr__: does anyone use racket for real projects?
22:01 ski: racket also allows you to write in languages with different (concrete) syntax
22:02 mhr__: what do you mean?
22:02 asumu: mhr__: http://cufp.org/conference/sessions/2011/functional-mzscheme-dsls-game-development
22:02 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/6ac6sxp
22:02 asumu: (for example)
22:02 asumu: (MzScheme = an old name for Racket's REPL executable)
22:03 mhr__: I'll hazard a guess that it's now called MzRacket?
22:03 asumu: It's just `racket`.
22:04 mhr__: I thought Mz meant something, guess not
22:06 asumu: It was an old naming joke that's been mostly abandoned nowadays.
22:08 asumu: There was an interesting e-mail thread where Neil Van Dyke talked about consulting using Racket a while back: http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2012-February/050476.html
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22:10 ski . o O ( `DrScheme',`MzScheme',`FrTime' )
22:10 ski: (did i miss anyone ?)
22:10 asumu: SrPersist. MrEd.
22:10 asumu: SirMail.
22:13 offby1: MmdCompiler
22:14 offby1: er, Mme
22:15 asumu: offby1: oh, hadn't heard of that one.
22:17 mhr__: what makes macros powerful?  I was talking to a c++ friend, and he told me that functions probably do the job just as well, and that c++ has macros too, but I'm not sure about the validity of that
22:17 mhr__: *make macros
22:18 asumu: mhr__: there are some things that functions cannot do. Here is an example:
22:18 mhr__: I'm trying to get my friend to try a lisp, so I'm trying to prove the benefits
22:18 asumu: rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (show-as-is e) (displayln (quote e)) e)
22:18 rudybot: asumu: error: #<undefined>:1:57: define-syntax-rule: too many forms at: e in: (define-syntax-rule (show-as-is e) (displayln (quote e)) e)
22:18 asumu: rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (show-as-is e) (displayln (quote e)))
22:18 rudybot: asumu: Done.
22:18 asumu: rudybot: (show-as-is (+ 1 2))
22:18 rudybot: asumu: ; stdout: "(+ 1 2)\n"
22:19 asumu: This is just a simple example, of course, but `show-as-is` is printing its arguments without evaluating them.
22:19 asumu: You can't do that with a function.
22:19 mhr__: hmmm
22:19 offby1: asumu: I made up MmeCompiler but I think she should have existed
22:19 mhr__: let me try some of that in my interpreter
22:21 mhr__: wow, that's cool!
22:21 asumu: :)
22:23 asumu: This means that, for example, you can define conditionals (like `cond`) as macros without building them into your language.
22:23 mhr__: you can create special forms...how bout that
22:24 asumu: Yeah, exactly. Or more generally, your own mini-language.
22:24 mhr__: that's mindblowing
22:26 mhr__: who or what is rudybot?
22:27 asumu: It's a bot that will run Racket code.
22:27 asumu: Thanks to offby1.
22:27 mhr__: why "rudy"?
22:37 (nick) jrslepak -> slepakjr
22:37 (quit) bitonic: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
22:57 offby1: rudybot: who made you?
22:57 rudybot: *offby1: oh, made of win. there's already a patch for #2, I just need to release it to QA.
22:57 offby1: mhr__: it was originally "fartbot".  Then someone pointed out that that was rude, so it then became "rudebot", and actually I forget how it went from there to rudybot.
22:57 mhr__: haha
23:00 mhr__: is rudybot's source online?
23:01 mhr__: found it: https://github.com/offby1/rudybot/
23:03 offby1: rudybot: source
23:03 rudybot: *offby1: git clone git://github.com/offby1/rudybot.git
23:03 offby1: he agrees!
23:03 offby1: rudybot: do you like your neighborhood?
23:03 rudybot: *offby1: You could grep the source dir for scan-lists to get you in the neighborhood. I'm not sure how to locate the file from the stack trace, though.
23:04 mhr__: "Hey Emacs, this is -*-scheme-*- code!" is that an inside joke?
23:04 offby1: nope
23:05 mhr__: oh http://pages.rediff.com/hey-emacs/1597718
23:06 mhr__: sorry, don't use emacs
23:06 mhr__: I don't especially see the real benefit
23:18 (quit) cdidd: Remote host closed the connection
23:28 (join) Fare
23:28 Fare: Do you use scribble to produce conference papers?
23:52 (quit) Kaylin: Quit: Leaving.