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00:39 PfhatHome: Asking again just in case and before I embark on what is bound to be a pretty lengthy effort: Is there a .NET version of the racket runtime?
00:41 Cryovat: I'm a newbie so take what I say with a grain of salt
00:41 Cryovat: But haven't heard about it
00:41 Cryovat: Considered IronScheme? It seems pretty mature
00:42 PfhatHome: It has to be racket. I'm writing a REPL tool for visual studio, and we use racket for our engine at work that this is supposed to augment so it would probably be better if the same runtime was used for both. :\
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00:43 PfhatHome: I'm writing what is basically an IDE for our scripting language that is compiled from racket.
00:43 Cryovat: Ah, I see
00:43 Cryovat: VS Shell?
00:43 PfhatHome: Yeah
00:43 offby1: racket runs on Windows, but I doubt there's "a .NET version of the racket runtime" ... even though I'm not even sure what that means
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00:44 PfhatHome: A version written in a managed language (C# or VB)
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00:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/Fjii2g
00:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Use `collection-file-path' to load example image - Neil Toronto
00:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Added nan?, infinite?, degrees->radians, radians->degrees, exact-round, exact-floor, exact-ceiling, exact-truncate to racket/math - Neil Toronto
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00:44 Cryovat: offby1: I assume compiler that turns Racket code into CIL
00:44 Cryovat: Err, *MSIL
00:44 PfhatHome: No, just the runtime. To actually execute the racket code
00:45 PfhatHome: Everything in scheme.h
00:45 Cryovat: I guess you could embed the C library?
00:45 PfhatHome: Yeah, but in order to use it from .NET you need to write a wrapper that can go from managed<->unmanaged
00:46 Cryovat: Sounds like fun to have two managed languages sharing the same memory space too
00:46 Cryovat: s/languages/runtimes/
00:46 PfhatHome: (Managed languages have no pointers, for instance. So you need have a layer that can take for example a managed string and extract the data into memory somewhere to get a pointer to it, that you can pass to the unmanaged code that deals with the string data.)
00:48 PfhatHome: Really all that I need is to be able to pass input to the racket runtime and get the output from it, though
00:48 Cryovat: To be anal; you do have pointers in C#
00:48 Cryovat: I don't know about VB.NET
00:48 PfhatHome: so I could probably just write everything in unmanaged C/C++ and then just write a single tiny wrapper around that code that can deal with I/O
00:49 PfhatHome: Yeah you are right, but it's easier to describe the difference that way than to explain everything else required to actually understand the difference between managed and unmanaged code :)
00:49 Cryovat: Hehe, yeah, sorry
00:49 Cryovat: I do .NET by trade, and I've had to do a fair bunch of P/Invoke lately
00:50 PfhatHome: Fun :|
00:50 PfhatHome: I mean I could just P/Invoke everything, but that would get really messy
00:50 PfhatHome: and if I did write a wrapper around the entire runtime, others could potentially use it as well
00:50 Cryovat: It would be pretty cool
00:54 PfhatHome: Well. It seems it does need to be done, anyway.
00:55 PfhatHome: The listener we use right now at work is like 100 lines of code.
00:55 PfhatHome: I'm going to end up spending months writting a wrapper around the runtime in order to re-write those 100 lines of code in .NET :P
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01:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/2MI3yw
01:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/gui win32: fix East Asian font problem - Matthew Flatt
01:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/future: fix debug logging for sync vs. block - Matthew Flatt
01:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] another *SL error-rewriting fix - Matthew Flatt
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03:18 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/p9ogMQ
03:18 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] turn on DrDr testing for racket/math - Matthew Flatt
03:18 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] shortcut for numbers in `write', etc. - Matthew Flatt
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03:23 PfhatHome: Is there a trick to building racket on windows with visual studio 2010?
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03:32 nilyaK1 isn't sure I'm bad at this.
03:33 Cryovat: A completely unrelated question
03:33 Cryovat: Where is the preferred place to file issues, the bugtracker on the Racket homepage, or Github?
03:36 (quit) abbe: Quit: Whenever we are together, it’s always estatically palpitating!
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03:36 nilyaK1: I'm not sure, hopefully one of the awesome coding people returns soon.  I have what I fear is a too simply question myself.
03:37 Cryovat: Just ask
03:37 nilyaK1: http://pastebin.com/qUatDeJX  How do I use cond instead of if there, purely out of wondering (line 15).
03:37 nilyaK1: I was typing it :) sorry I am slow at things :(
03:38 nilyaK1: I guess it's like 16
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03:39 Cryovat: https://gist.github.com/8d2144007e459154abac
03:39 Cryovat: Wouldn't this work?
03:40 nilyaK1: I'm not sure but I am willing to try it!
03:40 Cryovat: Doh, sorry
03:40 Cryovat: https://gist.github.com/8d2144007e459154abac
03:41 Cryovat: Err, same url, new content
03:41 Cryovat: I had two brackets too many
03:41 nilyaK1: lemme try it :O brb
03:44 PfhatHome: What's the difference between RacketCGC and GRacketCGC?
03:44 Cryovat: Racket = commandline, Gracket = graphical
03:44 PfhatHome: ah ha
03:44 PfhatHome: makes sense, thanks
03:45 PfhatHome: FWIW, Racket builds just fine with VS2010, you just have to fix some stuff the project upgrade didn't do correctly
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03:47 nilyaK1: of course since there's a bad storm near my friend's house, I can't try it till he's back online >_>
03:51 nilyaK1: aha ty :) I moved the (ready) down to the else part though
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04:01 PfhatHome: Cool cool.
04:01 Cryovat: Kaylin: Things worked out?
04:01 PfhatHome: Got racket libs built, now I can start writing .NET wrappers for it!
04:01 Cryovat: And yes, I can see through your disguise, despite the fake moustache
04:01 Kaylin: yup :)
04:01 Kaylin: oh one's my ancient dell laptop and one's my desktop machine
04:01 Kaylin: that's why I have 2 nicks
04:02 Cryovat: Ah
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04:57 tim-brown: which is the state of the art unit test framework for racket? i think there are two currently documented
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06:26 Cryovat: https://github.com/plt/racket/issues/109
06:26 Cryovat: I made an issue on Github for the ffi/vector thing from last night
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09:16 Shambles_: These other languages, like Typed Racket, and FrTime, how easy is it to use them from Racket?  Like, say I wanted to just write my GUI in FrTime, would that cause any headaches?
09:20 Cryovat: In Typed Racket, you can't afaik
09:20 Cryovat: Since it's based on the class system, and TR doesn't have classes
09:21 Cryovat: What I do in my project is create the GUI classes in "regular" Racket, create an "entrypoint" function and import that one into TR with type specification
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09:21 hkBst: Shambles_: there are parts of the GUI library that are FrTime-ified, but it isn't ubiquitous. IIRC for example you can't make the background of a text-field depend on a signal.
09:23 Shambles_: So I guess 'it depends'?  Is there anything special that needs to be done to make things work with FrTime, since Cryovat just described how to work with Typed Racket.
09:23 Cryovat: Well
09:24 Cryovat: Typed Racket is just Racket with type annotations and verification
09:24 Cryovat: FrTime is a completely different paradigm
09:25 Shambles_: I thought hkBst might know.
09:25 samth: Shambles_: frtime is less mature and less maintained than Typed Racket
09:26 samth: i wouldn't recommend using it to create standard guis (buttons, windows, menus, etc)
09:26 Cryovat: The impression I got from FrTime was that it seemed pretty experimental
09:27 Shambles_: samth: It looked like it would be a good way to connect parts of a GUI.  Generally you have to write logic to keep them 'connected' anyway.  I guess if I want something like it I'd be expected to roll my own as something embedded then.
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09:28 samth: Shambles_: functional reactive programming is a very neat idea, and frtime has a lot of good stuff in it
09:28 samth: but no one is really maintaining it at the moment in racket
09:29 Shambles_: samth: What happened to it?  The person that wrote it lost interest?
09:29 noelw: Worse. He joined Google.
09:29 samth: :)
09:29 Cryovat: Haha
09:30 jrslepak: samth: who was that?
09:30 samth: greg cooper
09:30 samth: occasionally posts on the list
09:30 Shambles_: Is it fairly safe to depend on Typed Racket?  Given the performance impact it seems like something that would be good to retain, at least.
09:30 samth: Shambles_: i plan to keep working on TR for the forseeable future
09:31 Shambles_: samth: Okay.  Thanks for letting me know.
09:31 samth: also, there are a number of other people who have contributed to TR development, so the bus number is higher
09:31 Cryovat: I've been playing with TR, the type checking is awesome
09:32 Shambles_: Cryovat: When you said verification you just meant more or less standard type checking, right?
09:32 Cryovat: Yeah
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09:35 Cryovat: I find that with decently factored functions, it's very good at spotting errors
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09:50 samth: Cryovat: bug reports for racket (including typed racket) should be submitted to bugs.racket-lang.org, or via drracket
09:50 samth: we plan to move to using github, but that hasn't happened yet
09:52 Cryovat: Ah
09:53 Cryovat: In that case I'm sorry, I made a report on Github earlier
09:53 Cryovat: I can resubmit it in the issue tracker if you'd like
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09:55 samth: Cryovat: that would be great
09:55 samth: i mentioned it b/c i saw that you reported that on GH
10:01 Cryovat: Done
10:12 samth: Cryovat: thanks!
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11:15 tim-brown: just saw the following in htdp2e:
11:15 tim-brown: Finally, we decided to use a slightly different terminology:
11:15 tim-brown: HtDP/1e
11:15 tim-brown: 	
11:15 tim-brown: HtDP/2e
11:15 tim-brown: 	
11:15 tim-brown: contract
11:15 tim-brown: 	
11:15 tim-brown: signature
11:15 tim-brown: 	
11:15 tim-brown: union
11:15 tim-brown: 	
11:15 tim-brown: itemization
11:16 tim-brown: is contract deprecated in favour of signature?
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11:16 bremner: that was a lot of lines ;)
11:16 tim-brown: wasn't quite expecting that to happen on cut and paste
11:16 tim-brown: i'll know betterer next time
11:18 tim-brown: executive summary: is contract deprecated in favour of signature?
11:21 bremner: contract is still pretty pervasive in the docs
11:21 tim-brown: what authority does pervasiveness have?
11:21 bremner: inertia
11:22 tim-brown: that's *som* authority
11:22 tim-brown: *some*
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11:52 tim-brown: "make install-plain" produces a racket that starts up in over 20 seconds. is there an install target (short of full "make install") that builds a faster-running racket?
11:54 Cryovat: DrRacket?
11:54 tim-brown: console racket
11:55 Cryovat: Wow :|
11:55 bremner: is your machine "special"? console racket is instant startup on this old desktop
11:56 tim-brown: solaris (in a zone)
11:56 tim-brown: but not overly "special"
11:56 tim-brown: and it's instant on a solaris machine that has been full "make install"ed
11:57 tim-brown: (instant's pushing it... <2s)
11:57 bremner: I see. so the it's the fact that many things are compiled during make install probably
11:57 tim-brown: oooh... did i just see raco setup db? cool
11:58 tim-brown finds the watching full install quite informative and exciting!
11:58 tim-brown: (now the other zone has properly woken up, racket is instant)
11:59 tim-brown: anyhoo --- i'll leave it chuntering on overnight; and see what kind of improvement I get
12:00 tim-brown: till then, night all!
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12:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/DfmjIg
12:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Made sinh return zero inputs unchanged (fixes failing test case) - Neil Toronto
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13:29 Shambles_: Is there anything equivalent to a Common Lisp 'restart'?
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13:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/IjNjBA
13:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Documented new additions to racket/math - Neil Toronto
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16:23 yoklov: the reason fixnums have 30 bits is to distinguish them from pointers, right?
16:24 stamourv: yoklov: Yes. Fixnums are tagged.
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16:27 yoklov: That makes sense. I've been trying to implement a lisp in C, and I was wondering how garbage-collected environments that don't do this (e.g. the jvm is one I can think of) avoid confusing pointers and integers
16:29 yoklov: this is admittedly off topic, but does anybody happen to know? or know where i could read about strategies used?
16:30 yoklov: presumably the CLR doesn't box them either, nor does go (though iirc go can't always distinguish between them on 32 bit platforms), so there seems to be a way it's done
16:33 stamourv: yoklov: Check out Andrew Appel's paper "Runtime tags are not necessary." or something like that.
16:33 stamourv: Mid to late 80s, IIRC.
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16:34 stamourv: Spoiler: Types.
16:34 yoklov: found it, thanks
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17:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/uhpPjg
17:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Minor fix in mrlib/hierlist docs - Asumu Takikawa
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18:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Qsw75w
18:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fixed contracts on exact-round, etc. - Neil Toronto
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18:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/4mj8fw
18:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix comment. - Vincent St-Amour
18:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix generation of random floats in TR random testing. - Vincent St-Amour
18:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix flonum and single-flonum operation types. - Vincent St-Amour
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20:13 Shambles_: Is there anything equivalent to a Common Lisp 'restart'?
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20:27 Shambles_: Guessing nobody knows?
20:28 Shambles_: Maybe asumu will come back and see the question.
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21:17 offby1: I suspect not
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23:01 neilv: why is source location position 1-based rather than 0-based?
23:03 neilv: rudybot: eval (require syntax/srcloc) (source-location-position (read-syntax 'foo (open-input-string "(aaa)")))
23:03 rudybot: neilv: ; Value: 1
23:04 jonrafkind: 0 based is left-over brain damage from 1964
23:05 neilv: i can see why the line and column numbers would be 1-based, since that's the convention outside of racket. but i was really expecting 0 for the character position
23:08 neilv: http://doc.racket-lang.org/reference/linecol.html
23:09 neilv: > Position and line locations are numbered from 1; column locations are numbered from 0.
23:09 neilv: now i'm really confused
23:11 offby1: neilv: Why are our days numbered, and not, say, lettered?
23:11 neilv: rudybot: eval (file-position (open-input-string "(aaa)"))
23:11 rudybot: neilv: ; Value: 0
23:12 neilv: ah wait
23:13 neilv: rudybot eval (let ((p (open-input-string "(aaa)"))) (port-count-lines! p) (file-position p))
23:14 neilv: rudybot: eval (let ((p (open-input-string "(aaa)"))) (port-count-lines! p) (file-position p))
23:14 rudybot: neilv: ; Value: 0
23:14 neilv: rudybot: eval (let ((p (open-input-string "(aaa)"))) (port-count-lines! p) (read-char p) (file-position p))
23:14 rudybot: neilv: ; Value: 1
23:17 (quit) kvda: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
23:18 neilv: i was thinking that 0 could be used to represent the port not having position info. but apparently it does use 0 for the position on the port
23:19 (join) kvda
23:20 neilv: i guess the position number in the syntax location info is what file-position would say *after the first char of the syntax* was read, not (like emacs) what file-position would say immediately *before the syntax* was read?
23:48 (join) Fare