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00:16 mithos28: Anyone know how to work around this TR bug? https://gist.github.com/2833691
00:17 mithos28: It gives an error of the form  Type Checker: Macro foo from typed module used in untyped code in: foo
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03:30 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/zgDAig
03:30 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] New Racket version 5.3.0.10. - Eli Barzilay
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03:32 nilyaK1: :O
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04:04 Cryovat: The version number keeps rising :D
04:04 Cryovat: What decides the version?
04:04 Cryovat: eli? )
04:04 Cryovat: *;)
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04:43 Shambles_: I'm starting to get the impression I should read "/" in identifiers as "as" or "with" (e.g. as contract, with interface).  Is that correct?
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06:01 jamessan: Cryovat: the fourth part of the version number is just used for nightly builds
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06:12 Cryovat: Ah, I see
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07:38 tim-brown: does "make both" build cgc and 3m even if i haven't configured --enable-cgcdefault and --enable-3m?
07:38 bremner: I think cgc might be used for some bootstrapping stage, not sure how fully it is built
07:49 tim-brown: i want both (cgc is far easier to embed in C, unless I've got the wrong end of the stick about 3m)
07:50 tim-brown: how come it's called 3m? any self respecting branding exec would have called it m?
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11:43 tim-brown: 64-bit build on solaris is producing "warning: cast from pointer to integer of different size" for most all files after they've been xformed
11:43 tim-brown: is this a known issue? or should i report it in more detail?
11:46 stamourv: tim-brown: A bug report sounds good.
11:46 tim-brown: i'm going through my annual wrestle with racket/solaris/amd64
11:46 tim-brown: grr
11:54 samth: tim-brown: i hate to say it, but have you considered ...
11:55 tim-brown: say linux and i'll slap you
11:56 bremner: linux
11:56 tim-brown: *slap*
11:57 tim-brown: i'll tell you for free that it's easier than HPUX (for which I managed to build an old mzscheme)
11:57 tim-brown: it's usually me not driving configure quite right
11:58 tim-brown: it's to combine with products that the customer doesn't want to use linux for
12:02 samth: tim-brown: more seriously, we're glad that you're finding/fixing these issues
12:03 samth: unfortunately, i don't think there are easily accessible modern solaris systems
12:04 asumu: If only I still had my old UltraSPARC
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12:05 tim-brown: in my experience cross compiling exposes some subtle issues, even within working code
12:05 tim-brown: we build with msvc, gcc, sunstudio-cc (and lint), on solaris, linux and windows -- each of which picks up its own favourite class of bug
12:06 tim-brown: and invariably it results in code improvement (or at least understanding)
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12:10 samth: sadly, the ec2 free usage tier doesn't include solaries
12:10 samth: *solaris
12:10 tim-brown: that's educational?
12:11 samth: no, they give a year of free usage to anyone
12:15 tim-brown: night all
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12:28 mithos28: Does TR do mangling of exports after it has done its internal expansion pass?
12:32 stamourv: mithos28: I think so.
12:32 stamourv: samth would know for sure.
12:33 mithos28: I am trying to fix pr/12807 which I filed last night, and it looks like something is getting messed up in that, since the normal expansion part looks fine
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13:07 samth: mithos28, stamourv: yes, TR does export mangling after
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13:13 samth: mithos28: relevant code is here: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/typed-racket/typecheck/provide-handling.rkt
13:13 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7zbbbee
13:14 samth: i think the incorrect handling is problem in this code: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/typed-racket/typecheck/tc-toplevel.rkt#L290
13:14 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/86lg9h9
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15:32 asumu: Saw this on Hacker News the other day: http://gus-massa.blogspot.com.ar/2012/05/adding-syntax-for-negate-in-racket.html
15:32 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7sklej9
15:35 Cryovat: The extensibility of the language is an incredibly cool feature of Racket
15:35 Cryovat: But at the same time, terrifying
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16:54 friscosam: asumu: nice link.  I would've hacked #%app myself, but that would be much slower.
16:59 friscosam: hmm, also I don't think that using #%app would work in all cases.
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17:01 stamourv: friscosam: Right, higher-order uses wouldn't work.
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17:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/MAKlpg
17:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Now make-flomap* and effects functions accept (U (Vectorof Real) FlVector) for color instead of just FlVector - Neil Toronto
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17:19 bartbes: arc looks pretty interesting
17:20 stamourv: Meh.
17:21 stamourv: Haven't seen anything in it that really improves on Racket.
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17:24 bartbes: me neither
17:24 bartbes: but it's interesting nonetheless
17:24 bartbes: to be fair, I'm too used to scheme to make using that a 'painless' experience
17:26 Cryovat: It's also an advantage to use languages that has been updated in the current decade
17:27 bartbes: I'm trying to think of a popular language that doesn't satisfy that dependency
17:28 Cryovat: I guess you could say C
17:28 Cryovat: Since a lot of people seem to be using C 89
17:29 bartbes: yeah.. but c99 is out, and c11 is.. being made
17:29 bartbes: I guess it holds true for c, but then again, that doesn't invalidate your statement
17:30 bartbes: even objective c got updated..
17:31 bartbes: php has been braindead for over a decade though, does that count?
17:31 Cryovat: Haha
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17:35 Cryovat: That's what landed me on Racket in the first place
17:35 Cryovat: The sense of momentum
17:35 Cryovat: I wanted to get into a lisp, and the only other one that felt vibrant was Clojure
17:36 Cryovat: Clojure itself seems like a cool language, but as long as it runs on top of an Oracle stack, err...
17:37 bartbes: anyway, is arc that old?
17:38 bartbes: I'd have to note its last update is 2 years old, according to wikipedia
17:39 Cryovat: If you go to the download page, it specifices that you need a specific version of mzscheme
17:40 bartbes: I was just wondering what it was, and stumbled into the tutorial that way
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18:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/D8dttQ
18:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] futures: fix a problem in cgc mode - Matthew Flatt
18:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] futures: fix bug related to tail calls - Matthew Flatt
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18:31 asumu: Cryovat: The momentum of Clojure is nice. Though I have trouble getting over things like mandatory [...] and things like (let x 5 y 2 (+ x y))
18:32 bremner: yeah, the one time I tried to quickly whip up a small Clojure example, the let syntax defeated me.
18:33 Cryovat: That looks icky
18:33 jonrafkind: they shoudl at least separate binding/expression pairs with some syntax
18:33 jonrafkind: comma most likely
18:33 Cryovat: Yeah, it doesn't read well like that
18:34 jonrafkind: (let x = 5, y = 2 in (+ x y))
18:35 bremner: isn't it (let [x 5 y 2] (+ x y)) ? or is the vector implicit?
18:36 bremner: not that I like that much either.
18:36 bremner: hmm, at least clojure1.3 seems to only like my syntax
18:36 stamourv: bremner: I would assume that the vector is explicit. Otherwise, how can you tell where the body begins?
18:38 bremner: last element rule?
18:38 stamourv: That would rule out implicit begin.
18:38 bremner: yup
18:39 stamourv: Anyway, gotta run.
18:39 bremner: no idea really. I guess I should ask #clojure ;)
18:39 jonrafkind: why does clojure use s-expressions, or something similar to it anyway. just go get macros?
18:40 jonrafkind: s/go/to
18:43 Cryovat: I guess the author likes the syntax?
18:44 Cryovat: Out of the homoiconic languages I've seen, the ones based on s-expressions have looked the beset to me
18:44 Cryovat: *best
18:44 jonrafkind: boggles my mind
18:44 jonrafkind: s-expressions are awful
18:44 bremner: obviously not everyone feels that way.
18:48 Cryovat: By the way
18:48 Cryovat: What text editors do you guys use?
18:49 Cryovat: I seem to remember someone in here using Sublime Text with Racket
18:49 bremner: I use emacs.
18:51 Cryovat: SLIME?
18:51 nilyaK: notepad /windowsfail
18:51 bremner: Cryovat: geiser
18:55 Cryovat: How painful was it to set up?
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18:59 yoklov: jonrafkind: why not use them?
18:59 yoklov: oh, because they're awful?
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19:00 yoklov: eh, I think they're less awful in clojure, which ditched many, many redundant parentheses, but macros is probably the reason, and the author used to be a common lisper
19:00 bremner: Cryovat: not hard, on debian there is a package
19:01 bremner: otherwise, I dunno, still not very hard
19:01 yoklov: not hard
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19:01 Cryovat: I'm on Windows 7, I have a feeling that's going to make things slightly less fun
19:01 bremner: probably
19:01 yoklov: i installed/compiled it myself no problem really and i'm not a emacs guru
19:01 bremner: iirc it uses make
19:01 Sgeo_: Cryovat, on Windows 7 too, am curious about getting Geiser set up
19:01 Sgeo_: I'm a bit lazy though lol
19:02 yoklov: i don't recommend it if you're doing gui development, it has never worked really well for me for that
19:02 Sgeo_: Might stick with DrRacket because of that, even though I admire the CL idea of program running while editing it
19:03 Sgeo_: I think what I really want to do is SICP, in which case either way it doesn't really matter
19:03 yoklov: God, I'd kill for paredit mode in drracket though
19:03 yoklov: yeah, i'm sure SICP would work fine
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19:06 yoklov: Cryovat: wrt clojure's (let [x 1 y 2] …) it's considered somewhat bad form to put bindings on the same line, but if you want to you can use a comma.  comma's are whitespace, so (let [x 1, y 2] …) is valid
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19:09 Cryovat: Ah, that makes things slightly better
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19:15 yoklov: yeah, clojures a very nice language, if you ask me.  Suffers from none of the baggage that scheme/cl have, and is extremely well designed and modern feeling.  It's somewhat frustruating not having mutable state (for the stuff I want to do), to be honest, but that's fairly small.
19:15 yoklov: Racket's pretty great for prototyping games though, so thats the lisp i've been writing in more lately
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19:20 Cryovat: What do you use for the games? world?
19:20 yoklov: no, just the oo model and gui toolkit
19:20 Cryovat: Ah, I see
19:20 yoklov: it's pretty close to what i'd get anywhere else
19:21 Cryovat: I've been going the OpenGL route
19:21 chandler: unhygienic macros aren't baggage?
19:21 Cryovat: The challenge has been that doing modern OpenGL in Racket isn't possible using the builtin libraries :/
19:21 yoklov: chandler: every symbol in the macro being namespace resolved basically solves that issue
19:21 Cryovat: The RacketGL package on Planet works well though
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19:23 yoklov: chandler: as a result, macros are fun to write (imo scheme macros arent), you never have collisions you didn't intend, but you can still (easily, i might add) intentionally shadow things if you want
19:24 yoklov: Cryovat: I'm not an opengl programmer, to be honest. most of the stuff I do is either 2d or 2.5d
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19:24 Cryovat: My only experience with macros was CL ones, and I prefer Scheme macros by far
19:24 Cryovat: I do 2D as well
19:25 yoklov: scheme macros are harder to understand.  If you can understand code which manipulates lists, you can understand cl/clojure macros
19:25 Cryovat: I just try to do things as fast as possible, because I want to support a lot of sprites at once
19:26 yoklov: Cryovat: yeah, I like having the option of writing to a pixel buffer, which opengl doesn't give me
19:26 yoklov: (even though that's not nearly as fast)
19:27 Cryovat: Well
19:27 Fare: by scheme macros, you mean syntax-rules or syntax-case?
19:27 Cryovat: You can sort of do that by writing to a texture
19:27 Cryovat: or a frame buffer
19:27 yoklov: Cryovat: yeah, but if you scale that up it looks like crap, iirc
19:27 Cryovat: You mean blurred to heck?
19:28 yoklov: Fare: both.  Syntax rules is better though.  Syntax case macros have so many things you need to know before you can understand them.
19:28 yoklov: Cryovat: yeah
19:28 jonrafkind: you can draw to memory and then upload it to the gpu
19:28 Cryovat: You can disable that
19:28 jonrafkind: its just painfully slow
19:28 Cryovat: It's a texture parameter
19:28 Cryovat: Was the first thing I turned off ;)
19:28 yoklov: err, what's painfully slow, drawing to a texture/framebuffer and scaling up?
19:29 yoklov: becuase thats what drawing to memory is
19:29 yoklov: right?
19:29 jonrafkind: uploading to the gpu is slow
19:29 jonrafkind: drawing to memory is fast
19:30 yoklov: yeah
19:30 Cryovat: If you can get away with doing everything in gpu memory, it's blazing fast
19:31 yoklov: Cryovat: yeah, you need to write your code as a fragment shader then though, right? (again, not an opengl programmer, so forgive me if i'm horribly wrong about that)
19:32 yoklov: which always seemed like one of those 'need to know what you're drawing ahead of time' type of things
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19:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/2xjwzA
19:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fixed some transforms, stubbed out docs and examples for the same - Neil Toronto
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19:35 Cryovat: I'm pretty new to things myself, but I know you can draw to a texture
19:37 Cryovat: The fragment shader is more like post processing
19:37 yoklov: Yeah, thats what I thought
19:38 yoklov: but isn't that the only way to work on things in the gpu's memory?
19:39 yoklov: and there's a difference than setting pixels of a texture and rendering to a texture
19:39 yoklov: err, between
19:39 Cryovat: Yeah, everything gets a bit more roundabout
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23:52 sizz_: uh-oh, I just noticed that the Realm of Racket site now says "coming winter 2012" rather than summer.
23:55 asumu: sizz_: that's too bad. But they're definitely making progress though.
23:55 asumu: Saw a tweet saying they're getting the draft to the publisher soon.
23:56 sizz_: that's good to know. i'm a little impatient. as long as it's good i'll be happy!
23:56 Fare: is it like "Land of Lisp" but with Racket instead of CL?
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