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03:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 9 new commits to master: http://git.io/c2Nqdw
03:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] allow #f as shift for `syntax-shift-phase-level' - Matthew Flatt
03:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/draw: fix outline adjustment in `draw-rectangle' and others - Matthew Flatt
03:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] cm: collect dependencies for submodules - Matthew Flatt
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04:03 anonus: hi, i'm new to racket and it seems very interesting to me
04:03 Shambles_: Is it considered bad form to not use the '[]' brackets around cond?  I sort of like the regularity of just parens.
04:03 anonus: but i want to know some things before i start my project on it
04:04 anonus: is there some way to make untrusted code execution environment in racket ?
04:05 anonus: environment that limits CPU time, memory consumption and also limits function set that allowed to use in code
04:06 Shambles_: anonus: I think you mean you want a sandbox, not untrusted code execution (which is nearly the opposite).
04:06 Shambles_: anonus: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Sandboxed_Evaluation.html
04:06 anonus: yes, i mean sandbox but why it is opposite to untrusted code execution environment ?
04:08 anonus: so, ok. if i understand right, i can make some kind of DSL for sandbox to not to force monkeys to use parenthesis, can't i ?
04:08 Shambles_: anonus: Generally people talk about 'trusted code' as the (preferably small) part of the VM that could, if it contains a bug, allow escaping the sandbox.  You don't hear the term 'untrusted code' being used much unless it's used to describe the mistake of allowing code to run that should not.
04:09 anonus: Shambles_: oh, ok
04:09 Shambles_: anonus: You should be able to make a Java applet / Silverlight style sandbox to keep people from being able to damage whatever is hosting the sandbox.
04:10 anonus: but i want implement it in scheme
04:10 anonus: *racket
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04:10 Shambles_: As for limiting CPU time and memory consumption, that's harder to arrange.  Usually that's considered the domain of the operating system, not the programming language, though I suppose you could limit the provided functions to have limited space/time consumption.
04:11 Shambles_: If you were hosting code on a Unix, you'd just use the regular OS quota system, most likely.  I don't think that exists for Windows, but... you probably don't want to do that kind of project on Windows anyway.
04:11 Shambles_: The link I sent you shows you how to make a sandbox in Racket.
04:12 anonus: but if we have VM we can limit resources on this level like it done in Lua
04:12 anonus: ok, i read it of course
04:13 anonus: but anyway i'm interested in knowledge of potential problems that i can get while implementing it
04:13 Shambles_: anonus: I'd be mightily surprised if Lua limits space / time.  It's possible.  I've seen MUD environments with their own scheduler and quota system, but general purpose programming languages usually make infinite loops and infinite recursion or mallocing (up until it crashes) possible.  Again, possible, if you restrict the functions, and re-implement part of the OS.  Whether that's a good idea is up for debate.
04:15 anonus: ok, can i throw another question to the fan ?
04:15 anonus: it's silly question but anyway how about racket's performance ?
04:16 Shambles_: anonus: TinyMUCK had a OS-style round-robin scheduler.  I'm not sure about the memory quotas.  I seem to remember looping and recursion was bounded, and everything was event driven instead, so there would have been a upper allocation limit anyway.
04:16 Shambles_: anonus: What about its performance?
04:17 anonus: as i understand it uses VM/JIT
04:18 anonus: so if we compare it for example with HotSpot on general tasks how's good code that Racket generates ?
04:18 Shambles_: anonus: As will pretty much every Lisp.  They can be compiled, but there will still be some work done at run time.
04:18 Shambles_: anonus: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=gcc&lang2=racket
04:18 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/829du44
04:19 Shambles_: anonus: It appears to be 'good enough' judging from the demos that come with it.  Anything that's not fast enough to suit you can be written in C and wrapped, just like Python.
04:20 anonus: so about 3-5 times slower than C
04:21 anonus: btw, this questions comes from java, because for example Freenet that runs in background can really be pain in the ass
04:21 Shambles_: anonus: Java:  http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=java&lang2=racket
04:21 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/44rg8jc
04:21 anonus: i know that it is more about how you write programs, not about racket itself
04:22 Shambles_: anonus: Freenet often likes to spawn more OS threads than is healthy.  Lots of context switching.  At least that's how it worked years ago when I last messed with it.
04:23 anonus: so do you think with racket will be much less problems because of it's greenthreads and continuations ?
04:24 anonus: anyway, ok. last question. racket can be ran on ARM, but it lacks JIT support. is it planned in future ?
04:25 anonus: does anyone know ?
04:26 anonus: or maybe it is planned to make llvm-frontend
04:27 Shambles_: anonus: No, IMO I think the average person doesn't understand mulithreading.  They seem to fall into two camps.  "Mulithreading is bad because most programs that use it are buggy." and "Mulithreading is awesome, it makes stuff go faster!  Got a problem?  Use more threads!"
04:28 Shambles_: anonus: Both are wrong.  The right way to do mulithreading is to not spawn more threads than processors.  Use asynchronous I/O instead of threads for I/O.  Use tree dataflow for lock-free concurrency when you don't need to keep a UI from 'hanging', and use message passing concurrency when you do.
04:29 anonus: Shambles_: i'm planning to do exactly that, make thread-pool and some tasks. is there in racket some lib that implements erlang-like actors or some similar?
04:30 Shambles_: anonus: No idea about ARM.  I'm content with my old obsolete desktop and laptop systems.  Mobile shmobile. ;)
04:30 anonus: i'm not about mobile, i'm about routers and nas-boxes )
04:30 anonus: s/ARM/MIPS/
04:31 anonus: ;)
04:31 Kaylin: are those mobile if I strap them to a remote control toy and zoom them around the house?
04:31 Shambles_: anonus: This seems to be what most people recommend for mulithreading in Racket: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/performance.html#%28part._effective-places%29
04:31 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/6tb7we3
04:32 anonus: as i understood racket is not so well for mobile because of it's footprint
04:32 Shambles_: anonus: Judging from that shootout benchmark I don't think Racket is your language for embedded programming.  I'd be delighted to hear otherwise, but I still think assembly and C rule that department (look at the "57 times the RAM use of C" in that benchmark).
04:33 anonus: ah, actors^W places. it's exactly what i'm searching for
04:33 anonus: not embedded, no
04:33 Shambles_: anonus: Lazy garbage collection has... unpleasant, side effects on memory consumption, and the only non-lazy garbage collection I'm aware of in real use is in Python.
04:33 anonus: it's more like applications boxes, like NAS-storage that can download torrents
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04:34 Shambles_: anonus: Hmm, I guess it depends on the RAM the device has then.  Still, it looks like Racket occasionally uses large amounts of RAM, so I'd keep that in mind.
04:34 anonus: from 128mb and more
04:34 anonus: upto 1 GB
04:34 Shambles_: anonus: It's worth noting that that's not the *only* thing to pay attention to.  I don't know about you, but I personally care about that "5 times less code than C" result. :P
04:35 Shambles_: anonus: I wouldn't think that'd be a problem then.
04:35 anonus: ok, good
04:35 anonus: 50 mb footprint
04:35 anonus: CL is bigger )
04:35 Shambles_: anonus: You can control Racket's footprint in RAM, as opposed to on-disk, by choosing which parts you load.
04:36 anonus: oh, cool
04:36 Shambles_: anonus: It actually talks about that in the guide.
04:37 anonus: wait, i was distracted
04:37 anonus: so there is no JIT from ARM/MISP and it's almost gueranteed that there will be terrible performance for racket
04:39 Shambles_: anonus: This wasn't the page I was thinking of, but you can see some information in the right panel: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/index.html
04:40 Shambles_: anonus: If memory serves "racket/base" is tiny, "racket" is pretty huge, and "racket/base/gui" is the largest.
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04:40 Shambles_: anonus: Sorry, that's racket/gui/base
04:41 anonus: i think there is no need for GUI on router ;)
04:41 Shambles_: anonus: It may not matter.  If you're not writing graphics or compression algorithms, the execution speed may not matter that much.  On something like a router or NAS it's probably all going to be I/O bound anyway.
04:42 Shambles_: anonus: And I think all the hard graphics work is farmed out to C code already anyway.
04:42 anonus: and how about crypto ?
04:42 Shambles_: anonus: And seems like it comes with zip compression/decompression, though I'm not sure about that.
04:43 Shambles_: anonus: It has common hash and encryption libraries included.  They seem to be in C too (e.g. openssl).
04:43 anonus: ok, good
04:44 Shambles_: anonus: It probably won't hurt you to just download the thing and try some throwaway stuff on it.  If it doesn't work well enough, at least you didn't pay anything for it? :P
04:45 Shambles_: anonus: 'Course I have no idea how you're gonna get it on your router or NAS, but I guess you've figured that out already.
04:47 anonus: ok, thanks for answers
04:47 anonus went to read htdp
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07:05 bartbes: is there a way to access something in the scope of a macro definition from within that macro?
07:05 bartbes: it sounds awfully non-syntax-y
07:05 bartbes: but what if the function my macro wants to use was renamed or prefixed in a require
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07:37 anonus: is there implementation of STM for racket ?
07:40 anonus: software transactional memory
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08:37 anonus: question about places
08:37 anonus: how it's implemented ?
08:38 anonus: when racket switches between places ? if for example i run N+1 places that just do infinite loop on N-cores machine will be last place executed ?
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10:26 asumu: anonus: there is no STM in Racket.
10:27 asumu: But there is on-going work to improve concurrency in Racket in other ways.
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10:32 asumu: bartbes: you mean bind an identifiter outside of a #' and use it insid the template?
10:33 bartbes: I have a function that accepts another function as argument, I'd like to use a macro, though, that automatically wraps its arguments into a lambda, now, that's not hard
10:33 jeapostrophe: bartbes: can you give an example?
10:40 bartbes: I'm sorry, my conn dropped before sending the second sentence
10:41 bartbes: anyway, I was wondering how I would make sure it would call the function I intend it to call, even if it has been renamed, for instance
10:41 bartbes: or whether it is even possible
10:45 jeapostrophe: bartbes: can you give an example?
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10:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/HxoPKA
10:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] New Racket version 5.3.0.7. - Eli Barzilay
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10:48 bartbes: jeapostrophe: I.. really don't think a code example could make it clearer
10:48 bartbes: I should add that the macro and the function it wants to call would be in the same module
10:55 asumu: bartbes: macros preserve lexical scope, so if it expands to some function call it will always call the right function.
10:56 asumu: (that is, the one defined where the macro is defined)
10:56 bartbes: alright
10:56 bartbes: then why did it not work earlier when I tried modifying a variable..
10:56 asumu: Maybe I'm not understanding your question.
10:57 bartbes: it sounds like you did
10:57 asumu: Hmm, well can you tell us how it failed specifically?
10:58 bartbes: I'll poke at it a bit
11:00 bartbes: it.. works now
11:00 bartbes: I must not have saved previously
11:00 bartbes: let's try with set again
11:01 bartbes: there: set!: cannot mutate module-required identifier in: success
11:01 jeapostrophe: you should show us the code that you hope to improve
11:05 bartbes: http://hastebin.com/nirutixudu and http://hastebin.com/xiguyiqeca reproduce this
11:05 bartbes: and, to be fair, it's not much more I have at this stage
11:08 asumu: bartbes: you can't mutate a module's binding from outside.
11:08 bartbes: I noticed, but doing it via a non-provided function seems to work, though
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11:09 asumu: Yes, because things in the original module are allowed to change it.
11:09 asumu: You are better off not mutating module bindings if you don't have to.
11:09 asumu: It probably interferes with compiler optimizations.
11:09 bartbes: doing this http://hastebin.com/jikibahipu works, but can I be sure it always calls the right function?
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11:10 asumu: Yes, that's what hygienic macros do.
11:10 bartbes: alright, thanks for clearing that up
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13:24 mwolfe: Looking for a little help.  DrRacket is very slow and un-responsive with Xorg using 99% cpu usage on my system.   I'm running xubuntu 10.04 with racket 5.2.1, both 32 and 64 bit seem to have this issue.  Has anyone heard of this problem?
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14:17 offby1: *crickets*
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15:09 anonus: is there some lib for key-value embedded store with indices like bdb or tokyo-cabinet ?
15:09 anonus: or maybe there is complete graph db implementation alread ?
15:09 anonus: *already
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15:27 asumu: anonus: http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=dbm.plt&owner=jaymccarthy
15:29 anonus: no indices
15:30 anonus: and i don't know how gdbm will handle large data sets
15:32 anonus: about ~100 Gb
15:33 asumu: Yeah, I have no idea. I think you should ask on the mailing list or maybe ask jay when he's here.
15:33 asumu: There is a nice db library for SQL-like databases, but I don't think it supports Berkeley DB and others.
15:34 DraX: anonus: what kind of queries are you trying to resolve?
15:34 anonus: i think SQL-database is not good backend for implementing graph store
15:34 DraX: yeah self-joins on an EAV table tend to suck
15:34 DraX: SPO table if you prefer.
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15:36 anonus: i have some code done on C with bdb and i want just to rewrite it to scheme
15:36 anonus: *racket
15:36 DraX: but what kind of queries does your code in c do?
15:36 DraX: like do you need to do graph-traversal?
15:36 DraX: or do you just need loose-schema?
15:37 anonus: no full graph traversal, just get object set related to given object with given kind of relation
15:38 anonus: loose-schema is good too, because i'm planning implement my own schema and it is a bit weird  in terms of RDB
15:39 DraX: well what your describing sounds more like a triple store
15:39 DraX: i was kind of looking for one for racket the other day
15:39 DraX: it would be really easy to do the YARS style thing, which would probably be good enough for you
15:39 anonus: if there are triple store - it is the best answer for me
15:40 DraX: just SPO, OSP, POS indexes and a (find s p o) method
15:40 DraX: i couldn't find one.
15:40 DraX: but it's not hard to build
15:40 anonus: YARS - java
15:40 anonus: no?
15:40 DraX: note i said YARS style
15:40 anonus: oh
15:40 DraX: you're not really listening
15:40 DraX: i'm telling you there isn't one for racket that i know of
15:40 anonus: sorry )
15:40 DraX: but it's not hard to write one like yars
15:41 anonus: so your advise to implement from scratch ?
15:41 anonus: *is
15:41 DraX: or bind one from c
15:41 DraX: the racket ffi stuff is pretty easy to use
15:41 anonus: ok
15:42 anonus: and how about objects that i want to link ?
15:42 anonus: put them in gdbm ?
15:43 DraX: give the yars paper a look
15:43 DraX: http://wiki.larkc.eu/TripleStores?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=YARS-DERI-TR-2007-04-20.pdf
15:43 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/86xe9bm
15:44 anonus: (xml ffuuu)
15:44 anonus: anyway, thanks
15:44 anonus: i'll try to make one then
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17:05 kreol[Ukr]: hello. i have some problem with mathematics in racket. for example (+ 0.1 0.1 0.1) it's will be 0.30000000000000004 but it must be only 0.3 . I understand why it's not 0.3 . but maybe racket have some "good" "mathematics" (except (+ 1/10 1/10 1/10)
17:10 asumu: kreol[Ukr]: I'm not sure what you mean, why won't (+ 1/10 1/10 1/10) work for you?
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17:18 kreol[Ukr]: i'm not good in racket? so there may be an easier way to fill in list with numbers from - 5 to 5 with step 0.01 but i write this code (define x ((λ ()
17:18 kreol[Ukr]: (let ([l '()])
17:18 kreol[Ukr]: (define (loop i)
17:18 kreol[Ukr]: (if (< i b)
17:18 kreol[Ukr]: (begin (append (loop (+ i 1/10)) (list i)))
17:18 kreol[Ukr]: (append l (list i))))
17:18 kreol[Ukr]: (reverse (loop a)))))) and if i put a variable x i have to interrupt a program... but with 0.01 all is well
17:19 asumu: kreol[Ukr]: Please use a pastebin like gist.github.com. Pasting in IRC is pretty hard to read.
17:19 asumu: https://gist.github.com/
17:21 asumu: kreol[Ukr]: I don't see why it won't work with 1/10. For example, (range -5 5 1/10) works perfectly fine.
17:23 kreol[Ukr]: i'm sory. this? https://gist.github.com/2669161
17:24 kreol[Ukr]: hm. Range, it's a racket function?
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17:27 asumu: kreol[Ukr]: That code seems to work, what is the problem?
17:27 asumu: And yes, range is a Racket function. For example:
17:27 asumu: rudybot: (range -1 1.2 0.2)
17:27 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: (-1 -0.8 -0.6000000000000001 -0.4000000000000001 -0.20000000000000007 -5.551115123125783e-17 0.19999999999999996 0.39999999999999997 0.6 0.8 1.0)
17:27 asumu: err, I meant to do:
17:28 asumu: rudybot: (range -1 1.2 1/5)
17:28 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: (-1 -4/5 -3/5 -2/5 -1/5 0 1/5 2/5 3/5 4/5 1)
17:30 kreol[Ukr]: It's work. But with 1/10 i have to wait some times after withdrawal x so i see all numbers but i can't work in interpreter some times. and if i change step to 1/100 i see all values too but it displays a message the racket of the interrupt program execution
17:31 kreol[Ukr]: and the program crashes completely
17:31 asumu: Just with this code?
17:32 asumu: Are you using a very large upper and lower bound?
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17:32 kreol[Ukr]: yes. when the step 1/10 or 1/100
17:32 asumu: Your code is notably not tail recursive, so it has a bad space complexity. That's probably the issue.
17:32 asumu: i.e., the call to loop is within an append.
17:33 asumu: So when you call loop, you still have the rest of the code allocated.
17:33 kreol[Ukr]: if it's 0.01 or 0.1. all is well
17:33 asumu: I think you want to use the built-in `range` or re-write this in an iterative style.
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17:34 kreol[Ukr]: Ok. I'll try. Thanks for help!
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17:35 kreol[Ukr]: I'm still a novice in the racket so don't know how to write good program in lisp/scheme style...
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17:37 asumu: kreol[Ukr]: here is a tail recursive version https://gist.github.com/2669212
17:37 asumu: Note that I also removed an unnecessary lambda.
17:37 asumu: And the (let loop ...) form is an alternative let form that lets you write loops easily.
17:38 asumu: I would just use `range` though, in most code.
17:42 kreol[Ukr]: ooo it's more compact code :) thanks.
17:42 asumu: NP. :)
17:48 kreol[Ukr]: Hm. Maybe something wrong with my laptop( or OS. All the same. i see result but to work with program i have to wait... and more i write  (range -1 1.2 0.2) but take " reference to an identifier before its definition: range"
17:49 asumu: kreol[Ukr]: Oh hmm. I don't think that's your computer. Now that I think about it, range was recently added.
17:49 asumu: So it may not be in your version yet.
17:50 asumu: rudybot: (require srfi/1)
17:50 rudybot: asumu: Done.
17:50 asumu: rudybot: (iota -1 1 1/10)
17:50 rudybot: asumu: error: iota: count expected to be non-negative, got: -1
17:50 kreol[Ukr]: and interestingly, if write (last x) it's all ok. but with (cdr x) i have to wait again :)
17:50 asumu: rudybot: (iota 1/10 -1 1)
17:50 rudybot: asumu: error: iota: expected integer, given 1/10
17:51 asumu: rudybot: (iota 1 -1 1/10)
17:51 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: (-1)
17:51 asumu: rudybot: (iota 20 -1 1/10)
17:51 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: (-1 -9/10 -4/5 -7/10 -3/5 -1/2 -2/5 -3/10 -1/5 -1/10 0 1/10 1/5 3/10 2/5 1/2 3/5 7/10 4/5 9/10)
17:51 kreol[Ukr]: i have racket v5.2.1
17:52 asumu: Okay, there we go. You can use `iota` though it's a bit weird.
17:52 asumu: Unfortunately, I think range was added after 5.2.1.
17:53 asumu: You can also use `in-range` which is like `range` but it produces a stream. You can use it with the for macros.
17:54 kreol[Ukr]: Okay. Thanks. i'll try to update my racket ^)
17:54 asumu: rudybot: (for ([i (in-range -1 1 1/2)]) (display i))
17:54 rudybot: asumu: ; stdout: "-1-1/201/2"
17:54 asumu: kreol[Ukr]: Well the thing is 5.2.1 is the latest stable version.
17:54 asumu: Though you are welcome to try a pre-release build.
17:55 kreol[Ukr]: (for ([i (in-range -1 1 1/2)]) (display i))    it's work! :):):)
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17:56 asumu: :) (be back later, installing some PC hardware)
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17:57 kreol[Ukr]: Ok. but i go to sleep :) Thanks again
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23:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/ZmB60A
23:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added a test to make sure struct/dc signals an error when getting an impersonator - Robby Findler
23:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] deprecate define-contract-struct (also fix a broken require in the contract docs) - Robby Findler
23:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix bug in example code noted by Ray Racine - Robby Findler
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23:40 shawnps: has anyone used this?  http://planet.plt-scheme.org/display.ss?package=json.plt&owner=dherman
23:40 shawnps: i'm trying to simply do: (read-json (get-pure-port (string->url "http://jsonip.com/"))) but i get 25