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02:42 jonrafkind: looks like drdr is having a siezure
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03:12 eli: jonrafkind: You've got things backwards.
03:12 jonrafkind: looks like siezure is having a drdr
03:13 eli: Putting your vim file in a place that only you know about is how it gets lost.
03:13 jonrafkind: one of us is in upsidedown world. how can we meet in the middle, lets both jump really high
03:14 jonrafkind: ok i can move it, i dont really care. but im the only one that cares about the file and i can guarantee that im going to forget about it once it goes into contrib
03:15 eli: I can *guarantee* that you won't.
03:15 jonrafkind: hows that
03:16 eli: I have some patches to make which will eventually lead to installing these things when racket installs -- the completion files, new icon/desktop/mime files, and since your file will be there, you I will ask you where/how it should be installed.
03:16 jonrafkind: i run 'make plain-install'
03:16 eli: So even if you forget about it after that, it'll still be part of the installation.
03:17 eli: Oh, and it won't be "collects/meta/contrib" -- it will likely move to a toplevel "etc".
03:17 jonrafkind: ~/.vim/syntax is the standard place to put such things but I'm not sure its safe to do that for people
03:17 jonrafkind: i mean ive never heard of any installation process that copied files to there
03:17 eli: No, these files are things that go to the system.
03:18 eli: That's because installing software doesn't put stuff in your home directory.
03:18 jonrafkind: usually I "install" racket locally
03:18 jonrafkind: so no racket in my "system"
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03:19 eli: Something like /usr/share/vim
03:19 jonrafkind: right, but that assumes im gonna do 'sudo make install' which i never do
03:19 eli: That's something that I can't help you with.
03:19 jonrafkind: i mean id have to pass --prefix=/usr to configure in the first place
03:19 jonrafkind: make install just copies stuff to the local tree
03:19 eli: The bottom line is, we have a place for such files.
03:20 eli: And people who look for such files, are much more likely to look for them in such a place, which is why I said that you got things backwards.
03:20 jonrafkind: racket/collects/etc or racket/etc would be much better
03:21 eli sighs
03:21 eli: 03:17 eli: Oh, and it won't be "collects/meta/contrib" -- it will likely move to a toplevel "etc".
03:21 jonrafkind: yes, im agreeing with you
03:21 eli: OK then.
03:22 jonrafkind: when is that gonna happen do you suppose
03:23 eli: If you have a system that has the same autoconf tools that Matthew uses it will help.
03:23 jonrafkind: is it ok to keep honu.vim in collects/honu for now until this 'etc' directory gets made?
03:24 jonrafkind: i tried to play with autoconf before but it failed miserably, matthew is the only one who can generate configure
03:24 eli: I very strongly prefer that it moves now.  (Because *I* don't want to forget it.)
03:24 eli: Running autoconf is easy.
03:24 jonrafkind: yea if oyu have it set up right
03:24 jonrafkind: i was never able to match matthew's system somehow
03:25 jonrafkind: i mean probably i could, but whats the point
03:25 eli: src/racket/make-configure
03:25 eli: The only problem is that different versions create different results.
03:26 jonrafkind: does he even run gnu autoconf? or some wierd osx variant
03:26 eli: He does.
03:26 jonrafkind: ill assume that meant 'he does run gnu autoconf'
03:26 eli: Yes.
03:26 jonrafkind: anyway what does autoconf have to do with anything
03:27 eli: There some changes that need to be done to the setup related files, and then more changes to distribution rules and such.
03:27 eli: And changes to the Makefile.in, IIRC.
03:28 jonrafkind: i told you i hate configure/autotools with the passion of a thousand suns right? i cant believe we still use it
03:28 eli: You have a better alternative?
03:28 jonrafkind: for now id write it all in python, for the future id probably start some new project
03:29 eli: Starting a new project for *that* is absolutely pointless.
03:29 jonrafkind: well its not pointless in that configure is a massive brain damaged piece of garbage
03:30 eli: The whole point of that thing is to deal with all kinds of OS quirks on weird setups.
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03:30 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FiolDQ
03:30 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] New Racket version 5.3.0.4. - Eli Barzilay
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03:30 jonrafkind: yea it brings along baggage from 1992 that won't resurface ever
03:30 eli: So your own private project cannot succeed, and it will diea.
03:30 jonrafkind: because we really care about wierd OS's, like sun right?
03:30 eli: IOW, the whole usefullness of that thing is that many people use it, so it's updated for all of these machines.
03:31 neilv: hahaha
03:31 neilv: when configure was created sun was the standard. everything else was weird
03:31 jonrafkind: it seems like we already build on the machines we care about anyway
03:31 jonrafkind: i mean if you don't mind configure then so be it, but i cant stand the thing
03:32 eli: What's your actual problem with it?
03:32 jonrafkind: its confusing, its ad-hoc, its written in shell
03:32 jonrafkind: have you written an m4 macro?
03:32 eli: What's confusing about "../configure"?
03:32 jonrafkind: nein. "whats confusing about configure.in" ?
03:33 eli: Who cares?
03:33 eli: It's written in /bin/sh since that *is* standard, certainly more than python.
03:33 jonrafkind: rofl, that argument
03:33 jonrafkind: anyway, if im just running configure why do i need autoconf?
03:33 jonrafkind: i thought the whole point was to hack configure.in and run autoconf on it
03:34 eli: Well, rofl or not, /bin/sh is installed in more machine, and it is more standard.
03:34 jonrafkind: yes im sure the 1% of people without python are very happy
03:34 eli: As for the m4 macros and such -- yeah, that's a disaster, but if you're not hacking on configure, why would you care?
03:34 jonrafkind: yea, so why do i need autoconf?
03:34 eli: You don't.
03:34 jonrafkind: <eli> If you have a system that has the same autoconf tools that Matthew uses it will help.
03:35 jonrafkind: what was the point of that?
03:35 eli: That's just to rebuild configure from configure.in.
03:35 jonrafkind: why would I need to do that?
03:35 eli: Look, autoconf is the compiler for configure scripts.
03:35 eli: Under normal circumstances, you never need to know that.
03:35 jonrafkind: autoconf converts configure.in to configure, yes
03:36 eli: Just like you don't need to know about gcc to run some application.
03:36 eli: But when you need to recompile the application, you need a compiler.
03:36 eli: That's it.
03:36 eli: So I asked you if you have the same autoconf, since we'll need to recompile a new configure script.
03:36 jonrafkind: who is this "we"
03:37 eli: That's independent of autoconf using a shell or not, and certainly independent of m4 or whatever.
03:37 jonrafkind: are you going to hack configure.in, give it to me, and have me generate configure?
03:37 eli: Yes, the issue was a patch for configure in.
03:37 eli: (Which vincent wrote.)
03:39 jonrafkind: ok, i have no idea what the plan is but send whatever to me
03:40 jonrafkind: i wonder what stamourv's opinion of configure.in is then..
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03:41 eli: If you don't have the same autoconf, then there's no point.
03:41 jonrafkind: autoconf is great. its not brittle at all
03:41 eli sighs
03:42 jonrafkind coughs
03:42 jonrafkind: i thought i was just testing something, who cares if i generate the same exact configure script as you?
03:42 eli: autoconf is not the point, speaking about it is a waste of time.
03:42 jonrafkind: as long as it works on my system, no?
03:42 eli: No.
03:42 jonrafkind: then why not just send me the configure script
03:43 eli: I'm done talking about it.
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10:24 samth: offby1: i don't think there's an index of that sort of thing
10:27 samth: offby1: but feel free to add a list as a margin-note in the right place :)
10:32 offby1: hmm could do.
10:32 offby1: Last time I tried to make any change to the docs my head hurt
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10:38 samth: it would probably look like @margin-note{Some useful struct properties are @racket[prop:procedure], @racket[prop:input-port], @racket[prop:make-rudybot-angry], etc.}
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11:16 offby1: thanks!
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13:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/JSKCbg
13:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] class/c: allow local method names - Asumu Takikawa
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15:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/rGF0Jg
15:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add deprecation note to htdp/image - Robby Findler
15:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] set the timeout for the easter-egg test to double what it takes on my machine - Robby Findler
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16:48 ASau`: Could anyone give me direct URL of 5.2.901.1 source tarball?
16:48 ASau`: (Also, it would be nice if one could get such direct links from site somewhere.)
16:53 ASau`: Ah, I think I've found it.
16:55 ASau`: eli: no, I'm not from FreeBSD land.
16:55 ASau`: eli: mine is at netbsd.org/pkgsrc.org
17:00 samth: ASau`: direct links to prereleases are at http://pre.racket-lang.org/release/
17:01 ASau`: eli: sorry, I'm trying to catch up, have you decided to skip it or not?
17:01 ASau`: samth: thank you, I've found it already.
17:01 samth: ASau`: we haven't made a final decision yet
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17:28 samth: eli: can you look at the open pull requests on GH, or should I do that?
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17:31 ASau`: Alright, another question then.
17:31 ASau`: Is testing 5.2.901.1 still relevant?
17:31 ASau`: Or should I test "release" branch directly?
17:35 jonrafkind: the release is delayed anyway
17:38 ASau`: Then the question is for how long. :)
17:39 jonrafkind: the worlds biggest pizza is canceled!
17:39 samth: ASau`: probably test master at the moment
17:40 samth: there are a substantial number of fixes on master that will be in whatever the next release is
17:40 ASau`: Alright.
17:40 ASau`: I'm lost in your release process then.
17:41 ASau`: It's not a big deal to test one more version though.
17:45 asumu: jonrafkind: is that a reference to a TV show?
17:45 jonrafkind: its from some cartoon on the flashtub from somethingawful.com
17:46 jonrafkind: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/flash-tub/fate-nick.php
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17:49 samth: ASau`: as you know, we're considering delaying the release
17:49 samth: as a result, not all the fixes that will be in whatever release gets made have been merged to the 'release' branch
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19:06 eli: ASau`: If you're going to create your package on every release, it's possible to add you to the email cycle -- either as a "JFYI" notification, or as part of the testing cycle (which means more nagging, but it also means that we'll wait for an OK from you).
19:06 eli: ASau`: As for the FreeBSD thing, it's just that the blurb on that page is pretty bad.
19:07 eli: (The "Racket is a set of tools for writing and running the PLT scheme" bit)
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19:11 eli: jonrafkind: (BTW, the "I'm done talking" wasn't being angry or something, I'm just really not interested in talking about autoconf, it's just a tool.)
19:12 jonrafkind: well it was 2am so seemed like a good palce to stop
19:12 jonrafkind: i still dont know what the patch is for or why i need the exact autoconf version as matthew
19:12 eli: It doesn't matter.  I'll get there.
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19:16 ASau`: eli: I'm keeping an eye of this one: http://ftp.NetBSD.org/pub/pkgsrc/current/pkgsrc/lang/racket/README.html
19:18 ASau`: eli: as for notifications, perhaps subscribing is good idea.
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19:19 ASau`: eli: JFYI, if FreeBSD package has maintainer, you can try writing him.
19:19 ASau`: Though I didn't have reasonable turnaround time with FreeBSD project.
19:20 ASau`: You may be luckier than me.
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