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01:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to release: http://git.io/JDTs0w
01:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Include both float zeroes in Non-Negative and Non-Positive types. - Vincent St-Amour
01:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Add a blurb on names in the json library. - Eli Barzilay
01:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Web pages tweaks. - Eli Barzilay
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01:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to release: http://git.io/yVIvJA
01:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] New Racket version 5.2.901.1. - Eli Barzilay
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02:04 Bala_: Hi All, read-byte command when does not read any byte returns an eof. so under what situation does a read command return eof ?
02:05 jonrafkind: when theres nothing to read
02:05 jonrafkind: rudybot, (read-byte)
02:05 rudybot: jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready
02:05 rudybot: jonrafkind: ; Value: #<eof>
02:06 jonrafkind: rudybot, (with-input-from-string "f" (lambda () (read-byte)))
02:06 rudybot: jonrafkind: ; Value: 102
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08:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/OSSTMA
08:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] convert functional hash tables from red--black to AVL trees - Matthew Flatt
08:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix typo - Matthew Flatt
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15:24 dyoo: anyone know where module-declared? is defined?
15:24 dyoo: I think there's a bug and I'm chasing it down
15:27 dyoo: argh; it's in the C runtime.  Nuts.  :)
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15:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/MZE6fg
15:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix contract names for ->m, ->*m, case->m, and ->dm contracts. - Stevie Strickland
15:27 (part) RacketCommitBot
15:28 jonrafkind: dyoo, did you figure out what to do with allegro
15:29 dyoo: not yet; was going to write a tutorial about writing a simple game with allegro, but the 5.3 release and getting whalesong running on it got on top of stack
15:29 jonrafkind: oh ok, do you think you might use a5?
15:29 dyoo: a5, yes.  I understand that a5 is the modern version now, right?
15:30 jonrafkind: yea
15:30 dyoo: ok, good.  Will be happy to help start filling in documentation gaps now that dissertation is almost submitted
15:30 jonrafkind: oh you're phd is done?
15:31 dyoo: yup; graduating in may unless something weird happens  :)
15:31 jonrafkind: nice
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15:52 flying_rhino: hello
15:52 flying_rhino: someone here?
15:53 jonrafkind: flying_rhino, stop asking that. just ask what you want to ask and someone may or may not respond
15:55 dyoo: flying_rhino: yup, here, though coding at the moment.  Will try to respond if I have time and have a useful answer to give.  :)
16:03 flying_rhino: One thing that's been bugging me about racket flavor of lisp is it's lack of clear identifiers for stuff. It is not lack of syntax per se (I quite like parenteses, and love the idea of treating code as data), but lack of labels which makes code hard to read. For example, to define anything you always use 'define' command. Why isn't there 'defmacro' for macroes, 'deffn' for functions and maybe
16:03 flying_rhino: 'defvar' for variables? It would make code written by others a lot easier to read. I have been complaining before about acessing structure fields/ It is normally acessed as (structureName-fieldName instance) instead of something like (GET instance fieldName). The latter isn't just less letters to type, it is also makes intent more clear, because former looks like generic function call. In most
16:03 flying_rhino: languages you have sintax to help you figure out what is what, and I believe that same clarity can be achieved without it, but is essential to label different things differently.
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16:09 flying_rhino: I know other flavors of lisp (like clojure) have this done somewhat better.
16:10 bremner: flying_rhino: but defining a function is just sugar for binding an anonymous function to an identifier
16:10 dyoo: flying_rhino: it's been considered, especially for the teaching languages
16:11 dyoo: It's definitely possible to do so: there's no technical reason against it.
16:13 dyoo: with regards to the GET stuff: I might be wrong, but the class system and its "get-field" function does this, right?
16:13 flying_rhino: bremner: In clojure defining a function is also sugar, but it still has defn macro that  binds functions
16:13 flying_rhino: dyoo: if it does it is great
16:13 flying_rhino: dyoo: can't use classes in typed racket yet
16:13 dyoo: get-field is in: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/ivaraccess.html#(form._((lib._racket/private/class-internal..rkt)._get-field))
16:14 bremner: flying_rhino: well, of course you can make such a macro in racket too.
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16:14 flying_rhino: bremer: I know... but I am wondering why no one thought of this before. And there is plenty of code done in old style... Which I find hard to read.
16:15 bremner: tastes differ I guess.
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16:16 bremner: I think racket (and scheme) value "orthogonality" quite a lot.
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16:17 bremner: i.e. combining a small number of primitives in different ways.
16:18 dyoo: flying_rhino: that being said, no technical reason against it.  arctangent as example of making an arc-like language on top of Racket
16:18 bremner: the for loop macros suggest racket is not doctrinare about syntax minimalism
16:19 dyoo: flying_rhino: http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2012-March/051217.html
16:19 flying_rhino: bremner: I am very pragmatic. I like code as data thing since it makes it much easier to generate code (via macros and automated code generator). But as a pragmatist, I value clarity. And too much orthogonality murders clarity, in my opinion.
16:24 flying_rhino: I think prefix syntax actually increases clarity. I like having verb at the beginning. (+ 2 2) is to me easier to read than 2+2, because I only have to read begining of a statement to know what the command does. Not to mention it is easier to write parser for. On the other hand, things like generic define command force me to read whole line, which decreases readability.
16:26 dyoo: flying_rhino: these sort of things and changes to syntax are being considered. Example: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev/archive/2010-July/003775.html
16:27 dyoo: http://shriram.github.com/p4p/
16:28 dyoo: must go.  need to finish dissertation edits... that is, need to stop procrastinating on them.  :)  Talk to you later!
16:29 flying_rhino: dyoo: in article you linked they mostly focus on removing parenteses, and I don't have problem with those. On the other hand defstruct defvar and deffn look like great idea!
16:29 flying_rhino: dyoo: good luck with dissertation!
16:29 dyoo: yup; so one can go without necessarily adopting the whole proposal
16:30 dyoo: thanks!
16:30 (part) dyoo
16:31 bremner: flying_rhino: to each their own. i prefer less primitives to understand
16:33 flying_rhino: bremner: yes but generic define statement that morphs into different things means MORE stuff to understand.
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16:34 bremner: otoh i mainly write small typed racket programs; types disambiguate a lot what you're talking about
16:36 samth: flying_rhino: but structs and macros are *already* declared differently then regular variables
16:36 bremner: define just does functions and simple values afaik
16:36 samth: ie (struct foo (x y)
16:36 samth: (define-syntax (m stx) ...)
16:36 flying_rhino: well some of it. And I can't use classes so I have to deal with awkward structure syntax. Which, admitedly can be made somewhat less awkward with macros as asumu showed to me yesterday but still....
16:42 flying_rhino: maybe I doth protest too much
16:43 (nick) hyko- -> hyko
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16:59 rajathshetty: die
17:02 chandler: no thanks
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17:03 offby1: choose life
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17:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/zbMNqw
17:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Describe `cl' syntax class in match. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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17:24 gf3: eli: Hey
17:24 gf3: eli: As far as I am aware there was nothing strange or out of the ordinary about the server
17:24 gf3: eli: It was a fresh Arch install and had the latest Racket from pacman
17:24 gf3: /cc samth
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17:25 eli: gf3: Which version is that?
17:25 gf3: eli: AGH, I'm sorry, the machine was actually compromised last week due to a rackspace disk outage
17:26 eli: gf3: Is it going to come up eventually?  Maybe then you can ping me and arrange for some way for me to get on it?
17:26 gf3: eli: Must have been this version → http://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/racket/
17:27 gf3: eli: No – it was totally broken, lost everything on it
17:27 gf3: eli: We were given a replacement server
17:28 eli: gf3: You mean "no" as in "it won't be up"??
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17:29 gf3: eli: Correct – that machine is gone forever
17:30 chandler: I've got an Arch Linux server - is there anything I can help test?
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17:37 Cryovat: Evening
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17:42 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/gR7CsA
17:42 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix a ->d contract example in the reference. - Stevie Strickland
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17:51 eli: gf3: and you don't have the problem with the new machine?
17:52 eli: chandler: The problem is described here: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=12637
17:52 gf3: eli: I'm currently compiling from source on the new machine
17:52 eli: There's a piece of code that is not breaking for me.
17:52 eli: In any case, I must leave now, I'll be back in a few hours.
17:52 gf3: Take care, eli.
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17:57 chandler: eli: I can reproduce the error.
18:00 gf3: chandler: Really!?
18:00 chandler: Yes.
18:01 gf3: chandler: That's great news, excellent
18:01 chandler: This is on a 32-bit Arch installation.
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18:09 Cryovat: Hmm, since there is a racket/pretty, is there a racket/ugly?
18:11 (nick) abbe -> everyone
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18:11 Cryovat: (sorry)
18:12 offby1 slaps Cryovat upside the haid
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18:13 stamourv: offby1: Cutting out the middleman (middlebot?), are you?
18:13 stamourv: gabot: slap Cryovat
18:14 Cryovat: :(
18:14 offby1: stamourv: I don't believe in gabot.
18:14 offby1: Cryovat: you wanna see racket/ugly?  Behold:
18:14 offby1: rudybot: source
18:14 rudybot: offby1: git clone git://github.com/offby1/rudybot.git
18:14 offby1 nods gravely
18:17 Cryovat: Hehe
18:17 Cryovat: You sound critical of your own work :P
18:17 Cryovat: Peeking at the code, I remember wondering
18:18 Cryovat: When doing for instance a let, is there a difference between using ( and [?
18:20 jonrafkind: no
18:20 Kaylin: yes, ( is rounded and more visually pleasing.
18:21 Cryovat: I guess people use square brackets for readability?
18:21 jonrafkind: ya
18:22 offby1: yep
18:22 Kaylin: http://xkcd.com/297/
18:22 offby1: it's a style that is meant to communicate ... uh ... I forget.
18:22 offby1: Something like "this aint' no procedure call, by golly".
18:23 offby1: Kaylin: sho' 'unff
18:23 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving
18:23 Cryovat: Are square brackets and paranthesies interpreted as the same in Racket?
18:23 offby1: Am I the only one to have noticed that quoting XKCD via URL is alarmingly similar to the old joke wherein the prisoners tell each other jokes by number?
18:23 Cryovat: I just noticed that [+ 2 2] yielded four
18:23 offby1: Cryovat: yes, the same
18:23 offby1: rudybot: [+ 2 2]
18:23 rudybot: offby1: your sandbox is ready
18:23 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: 4
18:24 offby1: but you can't mix and match:
18:24 stamourv: rudybot: {+ 2 2}
18:24 offby1: rudybot: [+ 2 2)
18:24 rudybot: stamourv: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
18:24 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: 4
18:24 rudybot: stamourv: ; stdout: "- : Integer [generalized from Positive-Index]\n"
18:24 Cryovat: That's pretty interesting to know, thanks
18:24 rudybot: offby1: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
18:24 offby1: rudybot: eval [+ 2 2)
18:24 rudybot: offby1: error: #<undefined>:1:6: read: expected `]' to close preceding `[', found instead `)'
18:24 offby1: rudybot: eval {+ 2 2}
18:24 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: 4
18:24 offby1: stamourv: huh, I didn't know you could use curlies.
18:24 Cryovat: This is a Racket thing, not a Scheme thing, right?
18:25 stamourv: offby1: I don't know anyonw who does, though.
18:25 jonrafkind: rudybot, <+ 1 1>
18:25 rudybot: jonrafkind: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
18:25 stamourv: Some of the type ascription forms in TR usually use them, but that's rare.
18:25 stamourv: Cryovat: Right.
18:26 offby1: rudybot: eval <+ 1 1>
18:26 rudybot: offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: <+ in module: 'program
18:26 offby1: guess not
18:26 stamourv: Although, IIRC R6 defined [] to be the same as ().
18:26 stamourv: Anyway, gotta run, see y'all later.
18:27 Cryovat: Have fun
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22:04 asumu occasionally uses {} as a third-level of bracketing, but finds it uglier in most cases.
22:05 asumu: {} could be nice for set literals or something though.
22:10 (quit) zyoung: Quit: Leaving.
22:11 asumu: A bit OT, but: do functional programmers have a smugness problem? http://www.sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=36534
22:11 asumu: (my impression is that this article itself is rather smug)
22:11 (quit) dented42: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
22:13 offby1: speaking for myself: of course
22:13 offby1 beams smugly
22:15 offby1 wonders what's worse: smug functional programmers, or websites that split fairly small articles up into even smaller pages, in a pathetic attempt to generate more "page views"
22:16 offby1: "Burnt Smug Lisp Weenie Sandwich"
22:19 asumu: offby1: it's especially bad on my monitor, which is rotated to portrait view.
22:20 asumu: with 23" diagonal.
22:20 offby1: Lord
22:21 offby1: that's like a decent-sized mirror.  You could get dressed or shave with that.
22:25 chandler: smug big monitor weenies unite!
22:29 (quit) aalix: 
22:29 offby1: can't; no room left
22:29 offby1: the monitor takes up all the space
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22:59 bremner: asumu: only one 23" monitor? Amateur ;).
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