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12:45 MrWiggin: just learning Scheme - why racket?
12:46 mithos28: MrWiggin: how are you learning scheme, sicp, htdp, through a class, or just on your own?
12:46 MrWiggin: sicp - online berkely 2011 lectures
12:47 mithos28: what environment do they use?
12:47 MrWiggin: STk - with some Berkely custome functions
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12:49 mithos28: So I have never used that scheme implementation, so I cannot really say what is different between the two
12:49 mithos28: but if you are using simple stuff for learning scheme, you will probably not find much difference between the actual implementations
12:50 mithos28: racket has great documentation, and community (i.e. this IRC)
12:50 (quit) chrissbx: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
12:51 MrWiggin: at racket-lang.org it says that it is a descendant of scheme - i got intersted in functional programming - would i recognize racket after learning scheme?
12:51 mithos28: yes, as of a couple years ago racket was called PLT scheme and was just a dialect of scheme
12:52 MrWiggin: :) simple stuff yes - scripting/apps for my own use mainly
12:52 mithos28: the name change happened for many reasons, but one of them was racket has a lot more stuff than is in the standard spec of scheme
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12:53 MrWiggin: saw that
12:53 mithos28: racket has a large standard library for regex, http, threads, gui and other things I'm not sure about stk
12:53 MrWiggin: thought i'd just drop in and monitor the chatter
12:54 mithos28: its quiet at times, but there are often people around. I for one don't usually initiate posts myself, but answer questions people have
12:55 MrWiggin: i didn't look hard but also din't see many extensions - i think it is R5RS (?) using TK for the gui interface
12:55 mithos28: that would make sense for the tk in the name
12:56 mithos28: racket also has a module system, which r5rs didn't have
12:57 MrWiggin: I like modules.  would racket still be considered a 'functional' language? or has it diverged into other realms?
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12:58 mithos28: Functional doesn't have a solid definition. It is as functional as scheme or ML, some may say haskell is more functional.
12:59 mithos28: I would say very much so it is a functional language, but purists might say otherwise.
12:59 MrWiggin: hmmm .. and i'm sure i really don't understand what i am saying
12:59 mithos28: If you are comparing it to c,python, java then yes it is a functional language.
13:00 mithos28: If you are comparing it to coq then maybe not.
13:01 mithos28: If you are looking to learn scheme, I would recommend it. The only warning is that racket pairs (i.e. cons) are not mutable, and scheme pairs are.
13:01 asumu: "Functional" isn't too meaningful really. See http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/sk-teach-pl-post-linnaean/
13:01 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/55rjug
13:02 MrWiggin: I did the same on-line learning thing for Python aabout 18 months ago and have been using it a lot - I like it - then I read a Text Processing In Python online book which opened my horizons to 'functional programming'  now I am happily sidetracked into learning scheme
13:03 mithos28: If you want a book specifically for racket, http://www.htdp.org/
13:03 mithos28: and the start of the second edition
13:03 mithos28: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/
13:03 MrWiggin: this is what really got me interested - http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf
13:04 mithos28: I'm getting a dead link on that, but I know the paper
13:04 mithos28: is is this one?
13:04 mithos28: http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/dat/miranda/whyfp90.pdf
13:05 MrWiggin: sorry bout that i just bookmarked that a couple weeks ago
13:06 mithos28: If you want to learn about that, then learning racket and following sicp or htdp is a great way to go
13:07 MrWiggin: yep - i read the 1984 version
13:08 MrWiggin: cool.  probably just finish up the lectures with STk then look at racket?  if I start looking at racket before i finish up will i confuse myself?
13:09 MrWiggin: thnz asumu
13:10 asumu: MrWiggin: Though I still refer to things as functional colloquially. I just mean to say there's no agreed-upon definition of it.
13:10 mithos28: I don't think you will confuse yourself, most of your scheme programs will work just fine in drracket in r5rs mode.
13:11 asumu: And there are lots of Internet debates on what it means and they're mostly pointless. :)
13:11 MrWiggin: yep - i understood
13:11 mithos28: which you can enable through the menus
13:11 mithos28: or add #lang r5rs to the top of your file
13:11 asumu: Though it looks like STk implements R4RS, so there might be some minor differences.
13:12 MrWiggin: hmmm .. the STk gui/environment/interface is lacking a bit
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13:13 mithos28: racket's is very good, it uses native widgets in all 3 OSes
13:13 mithos28: with the same api at the racket level
13:13 MrWiggin: and why is it called cons?
13:14 mithos28: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR_and_CDR#Etymology
13:15 mithos28: that actually doesn't say why it is cons though
13:15 mithos28: just why car and cdr
13:15 mithos28: I think it is short for construct
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13:20 alexshendi: Hello, I am in the process of installing racket on an ARM based netbook. The install is roughly spending more than 10h doing "making drracket ... images". Is that expected?
13:20 mithos28: That doesn't sound right
13:20 mithos28: The full build is an hour or so on my core 2 duo
13:21 bremner: well, the docs are very memory intensive to build
13:21 MrWiggin: ahh terminology relating to old school programming - i'll keep construct in mind and read again
13:21 bremner: alexshendi: try building it without the docs
13:21 mithos28: I think it is --disable-docs passed into configure
13:21 MrWiggin: thnx all
13:21 alexshendi: bremner: how so?
13:21 alexshendi: Ok, thanks
13:22 bremner: alexshendi: what environment btw?
13:22 bremner: OS?
13:22 alexshendi: bremner: xubuntu 10.10
13:23 alexshendi: Btw ra ket-textual installs OK.
13:23 bremner: alexshendi: I don't know if it will help you, but Debian already builds racket on ARM
13:24 alexshendi: I have tried to switch to Debian, but w/o luck so far.
13:25 jamessan: but you could likely use the packages that are already built :)
13:27 alexshendi: The problem is xubuntu 10.10 (which the device came with
13:28 alexshendi: is not supported anymore, so no packages :-(
13:29 alexshendi: The makers of the device advice
13:29 alexshendi: against upgrading ubuntu, as this can brick the machine.
13:30 jamessan: sure, but as long as the dependencies of the Debian package are satisfied on your system, then you could install it instead of building your own
13:31 bremner: I guess things like libc will be too old.
13:34 alexshendi: I guess I'll just wait, If a Core2 Duo needs 1h, a humble Cortex-A8 might take longer :)
13:35 alexshendi: Thanks anyway ...
13:35 jamessan: tends to take ~45 minutes on my i7
13:36 bremner: jamessan: parallel builds help
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13:36 bremner: it's more like 16 on my i7 in parallel, iirc
13:37 jamessan: yeah, probably should do that, but I've had my laptop hard shutdown while building racket a few times :) think it gets a bit too hot
13:37 bremner: oh, yeah could be.
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14:27 chandler: jamessan: I'm guessing it's a thinkpad?
14:29 jamessan: chandler: nope
14:31 chandler: ah. I've seen a lot of complaints about thermal shutdown on the x201 and x220
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15:02 asumu recently got a thermal shutdown while computing a Project Euler problem using Lazy Racket :p
15:06 Skola: you can get a thermal shutdown on 1+1 if your hardware is bad enough
15:08 chandler: or if your OS is bad enough...
15:08 Skola: on solid hardware, can you force a thermal shutdown?
15:09 Skola: without purposely breaking your CPU/cooling?
15:10 chandler: what is "solid hardware"? most laptops place fan speed under software control for noise and power reasons
15:12 Skola: sure, bad enough as in broken? of course
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15:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/VHxsLQ
15:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust the way 'new' is laid out in the documentation to be more DrRacket-like - Robby Findler
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16:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/nc2uhA
16:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix the contract-name accessor for struct/dc contracts - Robby Findler
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18:18 asumu: Hmm, I think I've found a bug but it's hard to reproduce.
18:19 asumu: (segfaulted while reversing a large list using delimited continuations)
18:19 mithos28: how would a segfault not be a bug?
18:20 asumu: I can't reproduce it consistently.
18:20 asumu: Trying to figure out a way to get it consistently right now.
18:23 asumu: BTW: delimited continuations are not very efficient...
18:23 mithos28: in terms of the implementation?
18:23 asumu: Yes, it seems so. I wrote a reverse function using the continuation to accumulate the reversed list.
18:24 asumu: It's faaaaar slower than the straightforward accumulator solution.
18:25 asumu: Then again, it's probably not a good idea in general to capture continuations in a tight loop.
18:35 asumu: Aha, I have an example.
18:35 mithos28: nice
18:36 asumu: (require racket/control) (define (loop) (shift s (loop))) (define (go) (reset (loop))) (go)
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18:36 mithos28: rudybot: (require racket/control)
18:36 rudybot: mithos28: your sandbox is ready
18:36 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
18:36 mithos28: rudybot: (define (loop) (shift s (loop)))
18:36 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
18:37 mithos28: rudybot: (define (go) (reset (loop)))
18:37 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
18:37 mithos28: rudybot: (go)
18:37 (quit) rudybot: Read error: Connection reset by peer
18:37 mithos28: oops
18:37 mithos28: should have thought that through
18:37 mithos28: seems to work though
18:37 bremner: bot killer
18:38 asumu: Oh my. :D
18:38 jonrafkind: rofl, i guess custodians dont handle continuations properly?
18:38 bremner: I told him once, I told him a million times about taking code from strangers.
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18:45 jonrafkind: isnt shift or control implemented in terms of the other one
18:45 jonrafkind: i mean they are essentially the same, just a different api right
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18:45 flying_rhino: hello
18:45 flying_rhino: anyone here?
18:45 jonrafkind: no
18:46 mithos28: flying_rhino: maybe
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18:46 mithos28: jonrafkind: I think so
18:47 flying_rhino: can someone tell me how to make recursive anonymous function call? So I have (lambda (x) yadda yadda yadda) can I make that function call itself somehow?
18:47 asumu: jonrafkind: both are macro expressible in terms of the other (unless you have types)
18:48 asumu: Oleg has a paper showing this, IIRC.
18:48 mithos28: flying_rhino: the easiest way to do that, is by giving it a name
18:48 jonrafkind: are continuations even typable
18:48 asumu: jonrafkind: Yeah, I'm slated to give a talk on doing that for class.
18:48 jonrafkind: oh ok
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18:48 asumu: Hence me crashing Racket with them.
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18:49 flying_rhino: okay. If I give a name to inner function A which is inside another function B, will function A be vidible outside B. I don't want to clutter namespace.
18:49 bremner: flying_rhino: you can use inner defines for that
18:51 flying_rhino: bremmer:how to do that?
18:51 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch
18:51 flying_rhino: sorry for being a noob
18:51 bremner: (define (foo x) (define (bar y)) (bar x))
18:51 flying_rhino: bremer: Okay I get it. Thanks
18:52 flying_rhino: it would have been simpler it there just was some way for lambda to call itself
18:52 flying_rhino: but what the hell
18:52 bremner: flying_rhino: there is but it isn't simpelr
18:52 bremner: or simpler
18:52 bremner: you can also look at letrec
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18:55 flying_rhino: okay I see it
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19:21 Nisstyre: Is there something like Haskell's guards in Racket?
19:21 Nisstyre: case isn't what I want, nor is match
19:21 asumu: Nisstyre: why not match?
19:22 asumu: (what's an example guard from Haskell you want to write?)
19:22 Nisstyre: asumu: I want to test against 3 possible conditions
19:23 asumu: Nisstyre: maybe you just want cond?
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19:23 Nisstyre: asumu: maybe, but I don't believe I can do something like else-if with cond can I?
19:24 bremner: and doesn't work?
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19:24 Nisstyre: bremner: you misunderstand me, I don't want to test if they're all true
19:25 Nisstyre: for each possible condition I want a different result
19:25 bremner: I still misunderstand you
19:25 bremner: that sounds exactly like cond
19:25 asumu: Nisstyre: you should be able to do that with cond. See 4.7.3 of the guide: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/guide/conditionals.html
19:26 Nisstyre: this is the kind of thing I want http://codepad.org/q9P3L9IL
19:26 bremner: you could translate that into cond with sed
19:26 bremner: well, and patience.
19:27 (quit) Kaylin: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
19:27 bremner: because sed is much harder than cond.
19:27 bremner: really, line by line.
19:27 Nisstyre: that's a bad example because that could be done with match though
19:27 Nisstyre: my actual use case is more complicated
19:28 Nisstyre: the conditions are like |v| < k and N == n
19:28 Nisstyre: where |v| is the magnitude of a vector
19:28 bremner: well, until you tell me why cond doesn't work for you, I don't know what else to say.
19:29 Nisstyre: bremner: I just wasn't quite sure how to do it with cond
19:29 Nisstyre: or if it was possible
19:29 asumu: (cond ([(and (< (magnitude v) k) (= N n)) ...] ...))
19:29 Nisstyre: ah okay, I see
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19:31 asumu: Nisstyre: If you haven't already, reading the guide might help.
19:31 asumu: (maybe we need a Racket for Haskellers tutorial)
19:31 Nisstyre: asumu: I have read a lot of it, but I just haven't used cond for more than two conditions
19:32 Nisstyre: I didn't realize you could extend it to any number of conditions
19:32 (part) dented42: "Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/"
19:32 bremner: Nisstyre: you can have as many (test result) clauses as you want. Each test can be an arbitrary expression.
19:32 asumu: Oh okay. And also BTW: you should be able to do anything you can do in cond using match.
19:33 asumu: By using (? ...) patterns for example.
19:33 Nisstyre: interesting
19:33 offby1: ... but only the first match gets "run"
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19:35 offby1: mithos28: you keel heem!
19:35 crdueck_: hello, can someone explain why this happens (define a '(1 2 3 4)) (append (rest a) (first a)) gives (2 3 4 . 1)... why is that decimal there?
19:35 offby1: rudybot: (cond ((= 1 1) (displayln "one equals one"))((= 2 2) (displayln "two equals two")))
19:35 rudybot: offby1: your sandbox is ready
19:35 rudybot: offby1: ; stdout: "one equals one\n"
19:36 asumu: rudybot: doc append
19:36 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
19:36 offby1: rudybot: (append 1 2)
19:36 rudybot: asumu: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/pairs.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._append))
19:36 rudybot: offby1: error: append: expected argument of type <proper list>; given: 1
19:36 asumu: crdueck_: ^ (see 2nd par)
19:36 offby1: rudybot: (append (list 1) 2)
19:36 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: (1 . 2)
19:36 offby1: crdueck_: simpler example ^
19:38 crdueck_: ah, jeez. big oversight on my part. thanks guys
19:38 mithos28: offby1: sorry
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19:39 __rahul__: is there a racket equivalent for the python dictionary?
19:39 Nisstyre: __rahul__: hash tables
19:39 offby1: mithos28: seems to be a bug in racket
19:40 __rahul__: Nisstyre: thanks let me have a look
19:40 mithos28: offby1: yes, asumu found it. I wasn't thinking when I tried it on rudybot
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19:47 __rahul__: what would be a good way to capture a text file into a list?
19:49 __rahul__: to be more specific, i have a file of numbers and i am looking to capture those into a data-structure line-by-line, maybe into a list or a hash table
19:51 jonrafkind: (for ([line (in-lines)]) (something-with-line line))
19:52 __rahul__: thanks, also found the file->list function, looks promising
19:56 mithos28: What primitive control operators are there in racket? I can think of if,#%app,call/cc,thread,place,call-with-continuation-mark. Are there any others that come to mind?
19:58 Nisstyre: mithos28: see the above discussion about match and cond
19:58 Nisstyre: also case exists
19:58 jonrafkind: maybe lambda?
19:58 jonrafkind: match/cond/case are not primitive
19:58 mithos28: Nisstyre: Those are macros over the others
19:58 Nisstyre: mithos28: oh fair enough
19:58 (quit) pmatey: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
20:00 mithos28: jonrafkind: in my use case lambda is separate
20:01 mithos28: I'm trying to figure out what primitives a machine would have to support to evaluate an interesting language
20:01 jonrafkind: isnt that called r5rs
20:02 mithos28: i'm thinking of a machine more like assembly level
20:02 Nisstyre: jump?
20:02 mithos28: so already lambda lifted and anfed
20:03 mithos28: but say for call/cc unless I cps the whole program, the machine needs to understand that
20:04 mithos28: Nisstyre: #%app is jump
20:04 mithos28: + a bit
20:04 Nisstyre: oh ok
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22:47 asumu: Delimited continuations seem really magical sometimes. The pythagorean triple example in this paper is neat: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.43.4822&rep=rep1&type=pdf
22:47 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8xw6xqz
22:47 asumu: I didn't believe it'd work until I tried it.
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