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12:25 petey: (apply or lst) doesn't work because or is a macro, not a procedure
12:25 petey: but i can't be the first one to want to do it
12:25 petey: is there an easier way than rolling my own function?
12:25 petey: s/easier/more legible/
12:26 jonrafkind: (ormap values lst) ?
12:28 petey: i don't understand why you'd want to use values there
12:29 stamourv: It's the identity.
12:29 jonrafkind: (apply or lst) would give you the first non-#f value in lst, right?
12:29 petey: right
12:30 stamourv: As for using `or' in a higher-order way, I've certainly wished for that, especially in a teaching setting.
12:31 stamourv: Maybe there's something we could do with identifier macros, or something, to turn higher-order uses into the η-expansion...
12:31 petey: ah ok that makes sense then
12:31 jonrafkind: like cut
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12:40 dyoo: petey: the thing about or is that it isn't a function because of its short-circuiting behavior.  It has a finer grain of control over the order of evaluation than a regular function
12:43 stamourv: dyoo: Right, but sometimes, you don't really care about that.
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13:04 petey: dyoo: you're referring to the fact that or doesn't compute values once it finds something true, right?
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13:17 dyoo: petey: yes.  It would be possible to have "or" do something magical if it's used as a higher-order argument, but the main #lang racket doesn't do it
13:18 dyoo: ormap does a "mapping" like thing, but also has the short-circuiting behavior
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13:26 petey: ok thanks
13:26 petey: stamourv is right; in this case, it doesn't matter to me - but that's a useful feature
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15:09 chandler: dyoo: got a minute for some autogrammar questions?
15:09 chandler: Ah, whoops, he's not here.
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16:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/5oDKZw
16:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] ffi/unsafe/com: fix custodian and multi-instance problems - Matthew Flatt
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16:58 dyoo: chandler: sorry, had to go somewhere for a sec.  What question about autogrammar?
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17:00 chandler: dyoo: I came to the conclusion that I need to play around with it a bit to be able to articulate an intelligent question.
17:00 dyoo: apologies for the lack of documentation
17:00 dyoo: the intent actually is to be a parser-tools tutorial, but I haven't finished the text yet
17:00 chandler: I'm not expecting documentation on something that's in development :-)
17:00 dyoo: Essentially: it's a parser generator generator.  :)
17:00 chandler: Yeah, I understand what it is, and I've worked with a similar tool in Common Lisp in the past.
17:01 chandler: My vague "huh?" was more to do with how to write the lexer.
17:01 dyoo: Yeah, I want to simplify so that you use a similar definition to that of the grammar, like how antlr does things
17:01 dyoo: but for the moment, it still expects the lexer to be written using parser-tools/lex
17:02 chandler: That'd be really, really nice. :-)
17:03 dyoo: The other component that's missing is the other backend engine.  I want to use another backend based on packrat, so that if yacc hits shift-reduce, just switch language levels and have it "just work"
17:03 chandler: What's the purpose of `adapt-python-tokenizer'? Is this something that's necessary for any lexer?
17:03 dyoo: no, specific for the python example
17:04 dyoo: because the token structure that a parser based on parser-tools/yacc depends on using the particular token structure provided by the grammar
17:05 dyoo: my python tokenizer, on the other hand, just returns tuples.  So I needed to do a quick-and-dirty translator to make the pieces fit.
17:05 dyoo: for a simpler example that defines a lexer with parser-tools/lex, see: https://github.com/dyoo/autogrammar/blob/master/examples/test-simple-arithmetic-grammar.rkt
17:05 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7muvbgl
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17:10 chandler: dyoo: I haven't used `parser-tools' before, so I guess I'm trying to bite off too much at once here.
17:11 dyoo: chandler: if you don't want to use parser-tools/lex, you can still use autoparser
17:11 dyoo: I mean autogrammar
17:12 dyoo: ... darn, I need a better name if even I can't remember it.  :)
17:13 chandler: So autogrammar is responsible for defining the tokens based on what it sees in the grammar definition, correct?
17:13 dyoo: yes, anything that's all uppercased is assumed to be token
17:13 dyoo: the module then exposes constructors "token-FOO" for each FOO token
17:13 chandler: and one per literal token?
17:14 dyoo: yes, as well
17:15 dyoo: The "parse" function that's generated will expect a thunk that will spit out tokens.  Things terminate at a token-EOF
17:15 chandler: Right, that makes sense to me.
17:16 dyoo: The complete set of identifiers exposed include "parse", the token constructors, a hash table called "all-tokens-hash"
17:16 chandler: The handling of the literal tokens feels a little clunky to me, though I guess that could be macro'd over.
17:17 dyoo: I wanted to be able to provide a "partial lexer" that automatically knows how to deal with the literals, and the user gets to just fill in the rest of the details
17:18 dyoo: but it doesn't work right with parser-tools/lex: its lexers don't compose nicely because, as far as I can tell, parser-tools/lex lexers don't allow a "fallthrough" case that leaves the port alone.  I haven't found a good workaround yet.
17:20 chandler: I suppose you could provide a syntax like `lexer-src-pos' but with the rules for the literal tokens presupplied.
17:21 dyoo: still need to hit on the right design.  I'm leaning toward putting the lexer definition in the same file as the grammar, and provide hardcoded definitions for
17:21 dyoo: token types like IDENTIFIER, STRING, NUMBER
17:23 dyoo: gotta go for the moment; thanks for the feedback
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18:52 tommc: Hello. A quick question for other racket web-developers: How often do you use continuations in practise? Personally I've only been tempted to use them for 'generating names' of functions to post data to.
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19:51 epictater: hello! anyone home?
19:54 epictater: I have the Ubuntu download for Racket. It is for Karmic and I am on Oneiric. Can anyone help me install this?
19:55 epictater: Or direct me to instructions?
19:56 chandler: That shouldn't matter, but there's actually an easier way to install Racket on Ubuntu and keep it up to date.
19:56 chandler: https://launchpad.net/~plt/+archive/racket
19:57 epictater: Thanks, chandler! I am on the way there now !
19:57 chandler: If you've used a PPA before, it should be straightforward; otherwise, there's a link to documentation about how to use PPAs on that page.
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19:58 chandler: One word of warning: there are no pre-populated launcher menu items for DrRacket and friends, so you'll need to run drracket from a run prompt or the shell.
19:58 Shambles_: tommc: I think continuations are used to handle "going back", like pressing the back button.  They might be used internally for things like 'generators' to chop big processing jobs into smaller ones that are easier to reason about or that could be interleaved with other work.
19:58 epictater: Thanks, chandler. I will install it and see if I can find it then!
20:00 Shambles_: tommc: This isn't in Racket, but will probably give you an idea how they can be used.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaside_%28software%29  It's fairly famous for using continuations a lot.
20:01 epictater: chandler, I did the ppa thing and typed drracket and it tells me to 'sudo apt-get install racket'. Should I be doing that after the ppa setup?
20:02 chandler: Yes, you should.
20:02 epictater: thanks!
20:02 chandler: Installing the PPA makes its packages available to you; you still have to install the package you want.
20:03 tommc: Shambles_: Hi.  I'm quite familiar with what they are, and certainly see how they can be used. What I'm curious about, is how frequently racket developers use them.  In my own experience, the use case hasn't justified the machinery behind them.
20:03 Shambles_: tommc: Googling for "Seaside continuations" (not quoted) will pull up more.
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20:05 epictater: chandler ... woooo hoooo! I'm running Dr. Racket!
20:05 Shambles_: tommc: I don't think continuations were 'invented' for web use.  You'd likely be more convinced their machinery is justified by thinking about how they'd be used to implement 'odd' control flow, like handling backtracking in various graph search algorithms.
20:05 Shambles_: tommc: But if you want to see what they're 'good for' in web applications, what I pointed you at might help.
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20:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/FX5WHQ
20:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/gui: fix `slider%' range checking - Matthew Flatt
20:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] slideshow/pict: sync `text' size limit with `font%' - Matthew Flatt
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20:06 tommc: Shambles_: Agreed about above.  I'm talking about the machinery as it applies to use in the racket web server.  (Especially stateless continuations)
20:07 epictater: Thanks, chandler! I must go explore now. Thank you so much for the help :-)
20:08 tommc: *stateless servlets.
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20:08 Shambles_: tommc: I've not been interested in web applications so I'm probably not much help, but given continuations are a major Scheme feature, and some frameworks like Seaside found them useful, it seems like a natural thing to include.  It also doesn't really hurt you if you don't use them.
20:10 tommc: Shambles_: Your last sentence hits the nail on the head for me. I've gone far without requiring them, and simply wondered if that was a common affair.
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20:25 Shambles_: tommc: I gather it is.  Most web frameworks don't have them, so they can't be considered /vital/.  It's more something nice to have, kind of like a macro system that's good for more than obfuscating your code and automatically bloating the binaries. :P
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20:56 tommc: Shambles_: True.
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