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06:50 tim-brown: i have some legacy plt-scheme code that I want to run with racket (current version)
06:51 tim-brown: it has a lot of (if cond then) forms without an else
06:51 tim-brown: which was acceptable, i think it used to behave like (when cond ...)
06:51 tim-brown: is there any way to get racket to tolerate that?
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07:01 bremner: use when ?
07:01 bremner: or you want no changes to source?
07:02 bremner: I guess you could define #lang plt-legacy if something like that doesn't already exist.
07:06 bremner: #lang mzscheme for example; not sure if that is deprecated.
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07:54 mrcarrot: i asked this one week ago... but no answer at that moment:
07:54 mrcarrot: is there any real world program using racket?
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08:44 tim-brown: mrcarrot: yes
08:44 tim-brown: ours
08:45 mrcarrot: (except racket and everything that comes with racket :D)
08:45 tim-brown: has been working well for, source code opened 2009.05.06.14.40.00
08:46 tim-brown: delivered to customer some time after that
08:46 mrcarrot: what kind of project is that tim-brown?
08:47 tim-brown: seems to work with MzScheme v4.1.4 [cgc], but not racket so much
08:47 tim-brown: XML/MQ -> C-program -> [embedded racket] -> C-program -> SQL + XML + "side effects"
08:48 tim-brown: and SQL -> C-program -> [embedded racket] -> C-program -> SQL + XML + "side effects"
08:48 tim-brown: embedded racket rips apart the XML with a match on the sexpr (is that spelt right?)
08:49 tim-brown: all much easier than doing it in C or Java or what not
08:49 tim-brown: especially since the XML protocol is specified using industry standard techniques...
08:49 tim-brown: ... i.e. ... a massive collection of ...
08:50 tim-brown: ... excel spreadsheets
08:50 tim-brown: because some wisdom says that *.xls is better than *.xsd for defining XML
08:50 tim-brown: personally, not sure that I agree
08:52 tim-brown: works REALLY well... the only failures have been bugs in my logic. nowt wrong at all with mzscheme
08:52 tim-brown: except it spins for a minute at start-up compiling/loading or something -- but it's running on a clockwork sparc machine
08:53 tim-brown: so it doesn't really upset me too much
08:54 gciolli: tim-brown: are you using an SQL database in that project?
08:54 tim-brown: kinda
08:54 gciolli is curious about the intersection between Scheme users and SQL users
08:55 tim-brown: we produce a high performance database, on top of which i've written a (good enough) SQL parser
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08:56 tim-brown: but we get our records into a hash table (that's done by the C-side) which then makes them plenty usable by mzschem
08:56 tim-brown: e
08:58 tim-brown: racket/mzscheme support hash-tables very nicely. 'spose standard scheme can use an alist -- but I can't even remember the alist forms, it's been so long
08:58 tim-brown: scheme can produce SQL strings just with a bit of string-concat and an hash-table iterator
08:59 gciolli: tim-brown: Racket is fine (especially in this chat! :) )
09:00 tim-brown: it's important to me that i don't overstate what more standard schemes can do (which would be unfair to racket), and i don't understate it (which would be unfair to RnRS)
09:02 tim-brown: the records dribble in at no massive rate, but they're turned around by racket very efficiently
09:03 gciolli: sounds right
09:05 tim-brown: and i'd need the C to do less if I thought it was easier to use IBM's MQ, and our data feed via FFI than to write the wrapper
09:08 tim-brown: i made that judgement call in 2004.08.09 (that 2009 date is not the earliest I've used racket for this application, it's when I ported to MQ from another protocol)
09:27 bremner: is it hard to combine lazy and typed racket?
09:29 bremner: I mean, without explicit delay and force.
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10:20 samth: danl_ndi: gc will probably just show up as happening randomly in different functions
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10:33 RPR: Loooong time ago I seem to recall that there existed a dual to (provide (struct-out ...)) along the lines of (require (struct-in ...)).  I can't seem to find it.  Is it gone?
10:34 stamourv: bremner: You'd have to use delay/force, or use Typed and Lazy in different modules.
10:34 tim-brown: gciolli: if not SQL how does the difference between Scheme users and SQL users tend to persist its data?
10:34 stamourv: We currently don't have a good way to combine languages. Language mixins would be awesome, though!
10:35 bremner: stamourv: ok, it was mostly for a "gee, look how easy this" demo. Which I guess I won't do ;)
10:35 stamourv: RPR: I don't recall seeing anything like that.
10:36 tim-brown: RPR: it's in the docs for provide
10:36 gciolli: tim-brown: not sure I understood the question...
10:36 tim-brown: let's see if i can get rudybot not to be rude to me...
10:36 tim-brown: rudybot: document provide
10:36 rudybot: tim-brown: is there a way to do a search an replace only within a certain area of a document?
10:37 tim-brown: gciolli: you said you're "curious about the intersection between Scheme users and SQL users"
10:37 RPR: tim-brown: (provide (struct-out ...)) exists.  My question is whatever happened to its dual analogue (require (struct-in ...)).
10:38 tim-brown: implies existence of a difference set which persists its data in a non-sql way
10:38 tim-brown: RPR: sorry, got you wrong way round
10:39 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 250 seconds
10:40 gciolli: tim-brown: the point is that I work with lots of SQL users, and I seldom find Scheme users, while personally I enjoy Scheme from before my SQL life :)
10:43 stamourv: rudybot: doc provide
10:43 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
10:43 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/require.html#(form._((lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt)._provide))
10:43 stamourv: tim-brown: ^
10:45 gciolli: hence I am curious about any project involving both
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10:58 tim-brown: stamourv: thanks (i'll try to remember that syntax)
10:59 tim-brown: gciolli: admittedly, i had to make quite some effort to interface the SQL/database library I'm using and scheme
11:00 tim-brown: FFI may make things more accessible, but I don't usually use SQL for queries; rather I get a live data feed down a socket
11:00 tim-brown: which is marshalled by C - and, as I said bunged into a hash-table before scheme does anything useful with it
11:01 tim-brown: hence my perennial moan that SWIG doesn't make life easy enough yet.
11:01 tim-brown: (and everyone else's moan that I should get off my bottom and do something about it)
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11:24 tim-brown: is there a wiki implemented in scheme?
11:24 tim-brown: racket?
11:31 samth: tim-brown: there's a wiki in scheme somewhere
11:32 samth: and eli and jonrafkind had worked some on one in racket
11:33 samth: tim-brown: here's a wiki in gauche: http://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/wiliki.cgi/
11:35 samth: there's also one called moshimoshi
11:35 samth: which was written in plt scheme back in the day
11:35 samth: tim-brown: see here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/schematics/files/moshimoshi/
11:35 tim-brown: 2003!
11:36 tim-brown: thx
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11:39 samth: yeah
11:39 samth: i used it in 2004(?)
11:42 samth: as far as i can find, every other link about moshimoshi is broken
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12:05 tim-brown: i notice in wikili there are keyword arguments beginning :...
12:05 tim-brown: is there something special in racket's reader that reads #:... as keywords?
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12:06 chandler: tim-brown: I'm not sure what "special" means there, but #:foo is Racket's keyword syntax, yes.
12:07 tim-brown: more along the lines of "what's the difference between (define (bar #:foo f)...) and (define (bar foo f)...)"
12:07 tim-brown: and why?
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12:23 samth: tim-brown: (define (bar #:foo f) ...) defines a function with one mandatory keyword argument named `#:foo'
12:23 samth: (define (bar foo f) ...) defines a function of 2 positional arguments
12:25 tim-brown: is #:foo more or less (or equally) as standard as :foo (in gauche)
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12:26 chandler: it's equally as standard, which is to say not at all
12:26 tim-brown: yay1
12:26 tim-brown: yay!
12:27 chandler: If you're actually trying to get something done, I'd recommend not paying attention to what is "standard" and just use Racket.
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12:28 tim-brown: i sometimes worry that i'm binding myself too tightly to racket
12:28 tim-brown: (but i guess that's the master-plan isn't it?)
12:29 chandler: I think it's more that the Racket maintainers care more about making a useful tool than trying to cooperate on standards with implementors who have wildly different views and priorities
12:29 tim-brown: at first glance i thought your last word was "politics" :-)
12:29 chandler: That too.
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12:31 tim-brown doesn't trust Trotskyite implementations of scheme
12:36 jeapostrophe: chandler: that is the core reason behind the name change
12:36 tim-brown: is there any effort to "market" racket -- as an alternative to scheme?
12:37 tim-brown: (that's intended to be an open question, so don't ask me what I mean)
12:37 jeapostrophe: i'm not sure the scheme market is a very attractive to go after :)
12:37 offby1: the very act of renaming PLT scheme to "racket" was marketing
12:37 offby1: if you ask me
12:37 offby1: for some value of "marketing"
12:38 tim-brown: indeed... i'm not sure that i can say "i use racket" and expect people to know what I mean.
12:38 jeapostrophe: and "racket" says more "new language for you if you are interested in new languages" than "awesome version of scheme if you already like scheme"
12:38 tim-brown: i have better luck saying "this is written in scheme"
12:38 tim-brown: which i guess is (in its own way) unwinding your collective good work
12:39 jeapostrophe: i am much more anti-marketing than other PLT people. I personally subscribe to the Paul Graham "secret weapon" idea. Racket will become many people's secret weapon and that will help us. I don't really care about it becoming a fad like X, Y, and Z
12:41 offby1: not so secret!
12:41 jeapostrophe: "secret" weapon
12:42 tim-brown: so why is it being taught to undergraduates.... you know they'll end up going into the world, desecretifying racket!
12:42 offby1: they're moles.
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12:42 offby1 has been reading Le Carré
12:43 jeapostrophe: i mean secret not as in "keep it secret" but as in if a few people get massive value from it, that's fine. i don't need thousands of the same boring apps written in and faddish undergraduates thinking it's the best until the next thing comes along
12:44 offby1 glances around nervously.
12:45 offby1 discreetly draws a chalk line on the pavement
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12:46 tim-brown: nuff said
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12:49 htmas: neilv said: "In any case, I think that your repeated criticisms on the Racket list are culturally inappropriate.  I'm sorry that you apparently were disappointed by Racket.  But I don't know why you would continue to hang out on the Racket list and comment on Racket, if you don't have anything good to say.  It is like you keep walking into someone's home to insult them in front of their guests."
12:49 htmas: But neilv, it is not anybody's home. It's a public place!
12:50 htmas: if nobody can tell anything negative then fuck off you all!!!!!!!!!!!
12:50 (part) htmas
12:50 nilyaK: whatlol
12:50 mithos28: is that racketnoob?
12:53 danl_ndi: anonymity + public forum =
12:54 offby1: mithos28: or the moral equivalent
12:54 nilyaK: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
12:56 danl_ndi: nilyaK: exactly
13:07 (nick) tim-brown -> nworb-mit
13:07 nworb-mit: fart!
13:07 (nick) nworb-mit -> tim-brown
13:12 tim-brown: libracket3m-5.2.so is 10MB. does that contain the graphicals and wxWidgets and everything?
13:13 tim-brown is planning to secrete (not ooze) racket onto an embedded system
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13:16 bremner: tim-brown: I'd guess no, the other stuff is in other shlibs
13:16 bremner: emphasis on guess
13:17 danl_ndi: sounds right. didn't racket do away with wxWindows?  the new FFI talks directly to windows dlls
13:17 tim-brown: looking at linux
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13:18 tim-brown: not bothering to wake nm up yet
13:20 bremner: tim-brown: (g)racket loads a bunch of libraries dynamically, so e.g. ldd can be deceiving
13:21 tim-brown: but 10MB is the *least* i get loaded in! i'll have a tinker, see what options are unnecessary (e.g. JIT prolly won't build on PowerPC)
13:22 bremner: tim-brown: afaik, it builds ok on powerpc32, not sure about 64
13:22 tim-brown: JIT?
13:22 bremner: oh, maybe not
13:22 tim-brown: oooh... maybe it's worth getting on regardless of size
13:22 bremner: whatever automatically configures, builds ok
13:23 offby1: danl_ndi: dunno if they entire did away with wxWindows, but they certainly reduced their dependency on it
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13:23 offby1: at least, they rewrote a lot of C or C++ in racket
13:23 offby1: surely a good thing
13:23 tim-brown: maybe i should pay attention next time i build!
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13:26 tim-brown: night night folks (actually nice sunny day -- but i'm outa here)
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17:26 tapo: I search something like a "racket cookbook" to learn racket by seeing examples. But I did not find something like that in the web.. do you have a link?
17:29 bremner: tapo: did you look at "how to design programs"?
17:30 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
17:31 offby1: tapo: try the tutorials and the "guide": http://docs.racket-lang.org/index.html
17:34 tapo: I've started with the tutorials. But they... I have typical problems like "I need a nagios nrpe plugin that shall have an exit code depending on the output of ntpq -p" -- that sort of things. Or processing of lines in a text file.
17:34 asumu: tapo: What kinds of examples are you looking for?
17:34 tapo: :)
17:35 asumu: tapo: Also, do these examples help at all? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racket_features
17:35 tapo: I do not need a tcp listener.. most examples of racket start with that
17:36 offby1: if you just want to write a wrapper around "ntpq", racket is probably not the best choice
17:36 offby1: I'd use a shell script, honestly
17:36 tapo: but some wikipedia exmaples look interesting. I will read
17:36 tapo: offby1: I used a shell script
17:37 tapo: often I use PHP. Maybe there's something better out there
17:37 asumu: There used to be a Scheme cookbook. I wonder if it would actually be useful to have a Racket cookbook.
17:37 asumu: Or if that would stagnate in a similar way.
17:38 tapo: I will have a look into http://htdp.org/..
17:38 tapo: bremner: thanks for the hint
17:39 tapo: I do not like programming books that start with "Numbers and Arithmetic" :)
17:40 stamourv: tapo: It starts off pretty basic, but gets much more interesting.
17:41 bremner: there is also a second edition
17:41 asumu: 2nd edition: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/
17:41 asumu: (I think only up to chap. 7 is written)
17:51 tapo: most times whenI have time to read about racket it is late in the night... gn8
17:51 tapo: thanks
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18:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/qZFQbA
18:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] specify 'angle's range - Robby Findler
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18:22 danl_ndi: anyone know offhand how "scheme_make_char_or_nul" is called in the racket source?  it's showing up in my profile a heck of alot...
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18:26 tommc: When running apache bench against the web server, (in this case it just returns "PONG"), I see the following error repeated in the logs: thread: the custodian has been shut down: #<custodian>. Has anyone else encountered that?
18:27 tommc: Also ab reports that all requests completed, so it doesn't seem to be dropping connections...
18:29 samth: tommc: that's strange
18:29 samth: danl_ndi: i recommend grep
18:29 samth: (seriously)
18:29 samth: jeapostrophe: see web server comment above
18:32 jeapostrophe: tommc: i believe that i recently fixed this, can you check with the git version?
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18:48 tommc: jeapostrophe: Will do.
18:48 tommc: Although I think my version is quite recent...
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19:18 danl_ndi: samth: tried it... doesn't show up
19:18 danl_ndi: is the windows source build working?   I download use the build.bat and it craps out missing racket.exe (which it's trying to build...), am I missing a bootstrap step?
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19:34 danl_ndi is having no luck...
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19:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/7ayYgg
19:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] updates to syntax/parse/experimental/template - Ryan Culpepper
19:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] syntax/parse: eliminate old minimatch struct syntaxes - Ryan Culpepper
19:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] more template improvements - Ryan Culpepper
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20:09 samth: danl_ndi: i can't find it either
20:09 samth: danl_ndi: you should ask on the mailing list
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20:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/LbDR6A
20:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix rotate so that it can accept non-integral arguments - Robby Findler
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21:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/2y4wQw
21:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] semi-export ability to extract multiple images from gif - Matthew Flatt
21:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix JIT bug related to inlining `variable-reference-constant?' - Matthew Flatt
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