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02:55 Diarmid: Is there built in support for memoization?  I can't find it in the manual if so.
03:04 jonrafkind: no but theres some package on planet that does memoization
03:04 jonrafkind: http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=memoize.plt&owner=dherman
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04:50 Diarmid: It'd be nice if there was better sound support in Racket.  Looks like there's almost nothing standard, RSound only works with WAV's, and when I tried to compile libvorbisfile (the only compressed format available?) it complained about a missing DLL.
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05:06 mrcarrot has been creating a port of racket for openbsd... now it is just to wait and see how much it needs to be improved before it gets accepted.
05:06 mrcarrot: if anyone is interested to test it and having a computer free to run openbsd on, just tell me
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05:51 neilv: http://i.imgur.com/fiP3H.png
05:55 (nick) noelw_away -> noelw
05:58 neilv: mornin', guv
06:11 noelw: top of the morning to you, sir
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06:16 neilv: aye, time for breakfast, mate. cheerios!
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09:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/vCclFA
09:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix typo - Matthew Flatt
09:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix shaodwing problem in `module*' - Matthew Flatt
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10:00 samth gets neilv a modern gtk, stat!
10:01 samth: eli: we need a better abbreviation for: https://github.com/offby1/rudybot/blob/master/corpus.rkt#L82
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10:19 samth: http://koalastothemax.com/?aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jY3MubmV1LmVkdS9ob21lL3NhbXRoL3RtcC9ybC5wbmc=
10:19 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/849s5n5
10:19 samth: that link is worth visiting, everyone
10:22 chandler: Needs more whalesong.
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10:28 samth: chandler: only so much at a time :)
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10:32 neilv: samth: i suppose i could add gtk2 themes/engines back in.  i stripped them out when i was getting rid of gnome desktop crap and building up the minimal stuff i needed
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11:23 offby1: samth: fairly cool indeed
11:24 offby1: http://nkwiatek.com/ is probably not any flavor of Scheme, but slick anyway
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12:02 nehS: hello community! Hello neilv, the best racket consultant in outer space!
12:02 nehS: what's up?
12:05 nehS: i just saw on users group that that neilv has discovered the tabs in DrRacket! neilv, cheers! (this whiskey is excellent!)
12:05 nehS: http://groups.google.com/group/racket-users/browse_thread/thread/e4c919f88e6428bd
12:05 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7tnt46g
12:06 nehS: Neil, what was for lunch today, hehehe?
12:07 neilv: i've been aware of the tabs. there was a fairly recent change to default directories in drscheme/drracket, which broke something of mine, and so it was changed again. but the current state of things was still not ideal, imho
12:07 nehS: newer was, imho hehehe
12:07 nehS: never
12:08 neilv: i also though it would be nice to take the time and post a tip for anyone else who was not aware of that preference
12:09 nehS: i think there are'nt any of geeks here not aware of that beautiful settings
12:09 nehS: neil, do you like adriatic coast?
12:11 neilv: i believe you've already stated that you intend to keep trolling even though you understand that people don't like it
12:11 nehS: i did invite eli to come and visit but he said that he would much more appreciate that i stop "trolling"
12:12 neilv: a charitable interpretation is that this is a cultural difference, rather than sociopathy
12:12 nehS: but i think that "sound of silence" just don't make any sense
12:12 nehS: what's the point of public communication chanel which is quiet all the time???
12:14 (part) ChibaPet
12:15 nehS: i want to make this place more "vibrant" hehehehe
12:16 nehS: I do not understand why it bothers you, neilv
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12:17 offby1: :)
12:17 (quit) Skola: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
12:18 nehS: hello, offby1. If you like what neilv said, then you are not just offby1 - you then are offby1000000000000, hehehe
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12:19 noelw: That would exceed the limit on IRC nick names
12:20 nehS: noelw: maybe you should write new irc IN SCALA then, hehehehe
12:20 noelw: oooooohhh! Burn!
12:20 nehS: hihihihi
12:20 nehS: don't hate me, noelw
12:21 noelw: I don't. I thought that was funny.
12:21 nehS: i'm nice boy, but i like to drink a little sometimes
12:21 nehS: and you?
12:21 noelw: Perhaps my response didn't translate to the adriatic coast
12:21 nehS: :)
12:21 nehS: of course, i'm teribble in english
12:22 nehS: sorry for that
12:23 nehS: noelw, do you want to come to the Adriatic? Pretty women, good wine and food, etc, etc???
12:23 noelw: I've heard it's very nice.
12:24 nehS: you should come and be my guest!
12:25 noelw: That would certainly be an interesting visit.
12:25 nehS: of course it will be!
12:26 nehS: I'm pretty sure that you would find good time
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12:27 nehS: ah, rostayob is italian, he does'n tlike me for some reason hehehee
12:28 samth: nehS: please go away
12:28 nehS: samth, i'll calm down. No need for kicking me
12:37 offby1: at least he introduced himself when he joined, thus giving me a chance to /ignore him right off
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12:43 neilv: in a module, how do i (define-for-syntax X ...) and also provide X from the module?
12:43 neilv: i've been using 2 modules for this kind of situation
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12:47 samth: neilv: you can do (provide (for-syntax X))
12:47 samth: if you then require that module, X will be available `for-syntax'
12:48 neilv: samth: i want it available in phase 0 too
12:48 samth: then probably you need a separate module
12:49 neilv: bummer
12:49 samth: b/c you need two copies of X
12:49 samth: you could, i think, require that module `for-template'
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12:50 samth: neilv: that will work
12:50 samth: see https://gist.github.com/2138153
12:51 neilv: it works if i provide for-syntax, and then require for-template, but i don't like the user of the module having to do the for-template
12:51 samth: neilv: someone needs to do 2 requires
12:51 samth: b/c you're creating 2 copies of X
12:54 neilv: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128449
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12:54 neilv: i want want to change file library.rkt so that file program.rkt works without changes
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13:02 neilv: i should ask on the email list, because i have wondered this for a long time, never when i have time to look into this tangential question
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13:04 samth: neilv: you do know about `racket/load', right?
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13:05 samth: neilv: to make that work, you have to either (a) duplicate the definition of `my-syntax-util' or (b) put it in a file that you require twice somewhere
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13:09 neilv: yeah, that makes sense, thanks
13:09 (nick) noelw -> noelw_away
13:09 neilv: i just posted to the email list, but i suspect the answer will be to use racket/load or multiple files
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13:10 samth: neilv: racket/load is just useful for creating examples like your
13:10 samth: s
13:18 neilv: this 1 file is about to become 3 files :(
13:19 samth: neilv: submodules may help here, actually
13:20 neilv: i was thinking they might, but this is for immediate planet use
13:22 samth: neilv: https://gist.github.com/2138153
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13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/DsKX7Q
13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] return the current expression when a semicolon is parsed - Jon Rafkind
13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] add two more tests - Jon Rafkind
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13:54 chandler: samth: I haven't been keeping up on submodules, but why is that (require 'm) there instead of (require m)? Is the argument to `require' being evaluated?
13:56 Diarmid: I asked last night, but I think only one person was awake.  There's no built-in support for memoizing, right?  I'm aware of the Planet package.
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14:01 stamourv: Diarmid: Not that I know of. Is there something wrong with the PLaneT package?
14:02 Diarmid: stamourv: I'm just somewhat wary of them, since several have been made obsolete by things included with Racket, and they aren't always marked as such.
14:02 (part) shofetim: "ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"
14:02 chandler: Made obsolete, or stopped working?
14:03 Diarmid: chandler: "Made obsolete" as in "Racket does this out of the box now, you don't need to download/compile/install more stuff to make it happen".
14:04 chandler: Ah. Well, I'm not aware of any out-of-the-box replacement. The nice thing about planet is that "download/compile/install" is pretty much transparent (other than the huge time delay for building docs).
14:05 Diarmid: That said, I have run into one that I can't compile.  I was trying to get libvorbisfile working, since using raw WAV's can be pretty bulky.  It wanted a libvorbisfile.dll, and the only way I could find to get that is download it off a shifty looking site, or compile libvorbis myself (and then which Visual Studio to use?)
14:05 Diarmid: And I'm not sure where to put the DLL to get Racket to find it.
14:05 chandler: Personally I don't think I'd use that memoize module, if only because it's super trivial to do this yourself, and there isn't a lot of flexibility in the forms provided by the module.
14:06 chandler: `eq?' is a strange choice for the default comparator; `eqv?' would make a lot more sense.
14:06 chandler: `eqv?' doesn't even seem to be provided as an option.
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14:09 chandler: No help on your vorbis DLL question, sorry.
14:10 chandler: I think it'd be rather nice to have some kind of memoization/caching feature in Racket, particularly if memoized functions were associated with some kind of cache custodian.
14:12 Diarmid: It'd be nice if some sort of common compressed sound format (e.g. MP3) was supported out of the box.  Actually, it'd be nice if sound was supported out of the box, but at least there's RSound.
14:12 Diarmid: I'm not sure what the "custodian" part of cache custodian refers to.
14:14 chandler: rudybot: doc custodian
14:14 rudybot: chandler: your sandbox is ready
14:14 rudybot: chandler: not found in any library's documentation: custodian
14:14 chandler: Diarmid: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/eval-model.html?q=custodian#%28part._custodian-model%29
14:14 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/828x8ks
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14:16 Diarmid: I'm not sure what the intended use would be.  Perhaps creating your own custodians and destroying them to free memory when you're done.  I figured that'd be taken care of by the general garbage collection though.
14:18 chandler: The idea would be to be able to discard cached or memoized values in response to memory pressure.
14:19 Diarmid: chandler: Seems like that'd depend on Racket being able to report low memory, and the program being able to dump information without problems.  That as opposed to it just being freed naturally when no longer referenced.
14:20 chandler: When is memoized data no longer referenced?
14:20 chandler: Racket can in fact report low memory:
14:20 chandler: rudybot: doc custodian-limit-memory
14:20 rudybot: chandler: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/custodians.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._custodian-limit-memory))
14:21 chandler: That's how doing this doesn't blow up rudybot:
14:21 chandler: rudybot: eval (for/list ((i (in-range 10000))) (make-vector 100000))
14:21 rudybot: chandler: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory)
14:23 offby1 shuts off his beeping pager
14:24 Diarmid: I meant 'gracefully' report low memory.
14:24 chandler: Yes, it can do that too.
14:24 Diarmid: Not fail wherever it happened to get low.
14:24 chandler: I'm working up an example with `custodian-require-memory'.
14:25 Diarmid: As for when memoized information might be freed, well, if it occurred inside a function, which has returned, that'd be one example.  You might memoize such a thing to make some sort of search within the function faster.
14:26 chandler: True, but unless there's some "natural" way of making the whole memoized data unreachable, you're sitting on a giant cache with no method of cleaning it up.
14:27 chandler: This kind of problem occurs all the time in real systems, and it'd be nice to have a general method of dealing with it.
14:27 Diarmid: I suppose so.  Although it'd be 'nasty' to depend on it, I can imagine some things breaking if memoized information was automatically freed.  Say, some sort of algorithm that used the memoized store to report where it had explored.
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14:28 Diarmid: And no, I can't think of a practical use for that, but since I can imagine something depending on it, I won't put it past someone to use. :P  I hadn't actually *needed* a lambda (in Python) until very recently, and have been programming on and off since I was 8.
14:29 Diarmid: The need arose in some complex error checking code that needed to: (1). check the type of the data just read in, (2). perform checks on the value of the data just read in, (3). report a suitable error message if any of those failed.
14:30 samth: chandler: if you use a weak hash (which that package does) then you automatically dispose of the data if it can't be used again
14:30 Diarmid: By using a lambda I shoved all that stuff into one procedure, which took a lambda to handle 2.  I could have used a named function, only there was no good name for it, and there'd be a lot of arguments passed.
14:30 chandler: samth: I don't think that's a particularly sensible expiration policy for a lot of real cases.
14:31 chandler: For instance, consider something like the Freetype glyph cache.
14:31 samth: chandler: yes, you might well need a more sophisticated cache than that
14:31 chandler: (Or, since I don't want to tie this directly to Freetype, a general Truetype rendered-glyph cache.)
14:31 chandler: Reachability could be a part of it, since there could be a notion of "open fonts", but you still don't want to cache every glpyh in every size for a given font.
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15:00 neilv: module: provided identifier not defined or imported for phase ffffffff in: %html-template:format/content/write
15:00 neilv: ah. the fffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu phase
15:03 jonrafkind: wtf
15:05 jeapostrophe: jonrafkind: you don't?
15:05 jonrafkind: correct, i do not understand your email
15:06 jeapostrophe: jonrafkind: i have some version of ubuntu, but i am willing to upgrade if necessary
15:06 jeapostrophe: jonrafkind: i don't know if i need to build on the version the package is for (i.e. i don't know if i can make more than one ppa)
15:06 jonrafkind: i did not understand the last sentence in the email, is it asking to combine the ppa into the nightly build?
15:07 jonrafkind: you can build for any version, thats how i make the ppa now
15:07 jeapostrophe: jonrafkind: ya, could we make the nightly build bots also make a ppa and just add machines for that purpose
15:07 jonrafkind: i upload a source package and it gets compiled on the launchpad machines for that version
15:07 jonrafkind: except I cheat and just compile for lucid and then copy the binaries to the other versions
15:07 jonrafkind: i think it makes more sense to cooperate with the nightly build than with drdr
15:07 jonrafkind: so who controls that, eli?
15:07 jeapostrophe: i agree
15:08 jeapostrophe: yes, but ryan will in the future
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15:08 jonrafkind: whens that
15:08 jeapostrophe: 2030
15:08 jonrafkind: my death certificate is for 2026
15:08 jeapostrophe: no date, just "the future"
15:09 jonrafkind: well for now i can set up some local machines here that just build the ppa stuff as a cron job
15:10 jonrafkind: if i do it right it should be easy to transfer it to any machine in the future
15:11 jonrafkind: we have a server sitting here.. ill see what i can do
15:14 eli: ?
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15:35 danking: Any idea why redirecting the stdout of a racket program to a file would cause nothing to be outputted (or, for the weirder possibility, for the program to run forever)?
15:35 danking: i.e. changing "racket my-file.rkt" to "racket my-file.rkt > out.log"
15:36 neilv: if it's going to a file, it might be buffering the writes til it gets a block's worth of bytes to write
15:37 danking: neilv: Can I somehow insist that it (is "it" bash or racket in this case?) not do that?
15:38 neilv: (file-stream-buffer-mode port 'none)
15:41 danking: neilv: It worked! Thanks
15:44 neilv: danking: you can alternatively do "flush-output" at appropriate times, such as after writing each line or logical chunks of output. this might give better i/o performance than disabling buffering
15:46 danking: neilv: ok
15:54 neilv: my little library had to be broken up into at least 3 files because of the different phase dependencies. (i did 4 files instead of 3, because "generate" was more problematic than "parse", and i wanted to keep them separate)  http://i.imgur.com/5Rnq9.png
15:55 chandler: neilv: using begin-for-syntax didn't help?
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15:56 neilv: chandler: i see brian mastenbrook showed a hack "begin-both" that looks like it might've worked
15:57 chandler: yeah, if only that guy had replied earlier
15:57 neilv: i'm going to have to wait for submodules to make it into a release
15:57 chandler: (that's me, btw)
15:57 neilv: aha. i knew it sounded very familiar :)
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15:57 chandler: `begin-both' doesn't do anything interesting other than keeping you from writing the definition twice
15:58 chandler: `begin-for-syntax' is the real phase-hopping magic here.
16:01 samth: neilv: you *definitely* need a more modern gtk theme :)
16:02 chandler: Yeah, get with the times, man. It's all about grey text on a beige background with purple and orange highlights nowadays.
16:02 neilv: that's the default look of gtk2 that everyone has. most just never see the default :)
16:02 samth: neilv: i only see the default when my window manager crashes
16:05 chandler: Speaking of GTK themes, have a look at the difference between the toolbar icon background and the window background: http://brian.mastenbrook.net/content/images/drracket-oxygen-gtk.png
16:05 chandler: That's with the oxygen-gtk theme that's part of KDE.
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18:44 jonrafkind: whats an easy way to get the version of racket from somewhere in the source (unbuilt)
18:44 jonrafkind: src/racket/src/schvers.h MZSCHEME_VERSION ?
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19:15 stamourv: jonrafkind: Sounds reasonable.
19:16 stamourv: Otherwise, git tags may work, but they're coarser granularity.
19:16 jonrafkind: jeapostrophe, im almost done with this cronjob
19:16 jonrafkind: ill test it out over the next few days
19:16 stamourv: There's also the visual studio files that eli keeps changing every time MZSCHEME_VERSION changes.
19:16 jonrafkind: yea i saw that too, but I think it had commas in it instead of .'s
19:16 stamourv: sed?
19:17 stamourv: Heck, tr should do it.
19:17 jonrafkind: yes well.. since its already formatted in schvers its easiest to just pull that
19:17 stamourv: Agreed.
19:17 stamourv: And it's the more authoritative source, too.
19:17 jonrafkind: word
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21:01 danl_ndi: anyone here familiar with the statistical profiler?
21:04 jeapostrophe: danl_ndi: ish, what do you need to know?
21:04 jeapostrophe: Danny Yoo just wrote a post on the mailing list about it btw
21:05 danl_ndi: my profile results don't actually list any samples
21:06 danl_ndi: it says 117 samples taken
21:07 danl_ndi: does it work with compiled racket code?
21:07 jeapostrophe: it does
21:08 jeapostrophe: but it doesn't catch time spent inside some C and JIT code
21:08 jeapostrophe: it works best if you program runs for a while... how long does yours run?
21:08 danl_ndi: 5.9 seconds
21:09 danl_ndi: it collects samples... it just doesn't display them
21:09 samth: danl_ndi: that should be enough
21:09 samth: it prints the results to stdout
21:09 (quit) masm: Quit: Leaving.
21:09 jeapostrophe: assuming you are using profile or profile-thunk
21:10 jeapostrophe: are you capturing stdout somehow?
21:10 samth: right
21:10 danl_ndi: hmm... that might be the problem. confusing since it shows the summary and header... i'll check it
21:13 danl_ndi: nope stdout is fine... it just doesn't output anything on windows (under cygwin)
21:14 jeapostrophe: is your code small enough to gist so we could run/take a look?
21:14 danl_ndi: no, sorry
21:14 danl_ndi: i'll put together something that if my investigation continues
21:15 danl_ndi: "something that is"
21:15 jeapostrophe: does your program return correctly... it doesn't exit early or anything?
21:15 jeapostrophe: i can't think of anything else that would happen
21:20 danl_ndi: it exits properly. i'm looking through the linux samples... how are they sorted/
21:21 danl_ndi: -> ?
21:34 samth: danl_ndi: the sorting is complicated, as i remember
21:34 samth: some sort of topological sort
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21:46 danl_ndi: any clues to how garbage collection would show up in the profile?
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22:31 eli: jonrafkind: What are you trying to do with the version number?
22:31 jonrafkind: use it to create the ppa package name
22:31 jonrafkind: racket_5.2.900.1-20120320~karmic
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22:33 eli: jonrafkind: Can you run it to get the version number, or do you have to get it from the sources?
22:34 jonrafkind: i dont want to have to build racket just to get the version
22:34 jonrafkind: since all im doing is packaging the source
22:34 jonrafkind: are you saying parsing schvers.h is not reliable?
22:35 jonrafkind: its not super ultra important that the version be correct, really i just need a unique name for the package, thats what the date is for
22:35 jonrafkind: i just put the version number on so people can have a good idea what racket version they are installing
22:36 eli: jonrafkind: For a proper solution, look in "collects/meta/build/build"
22:36 eli: version_init() is what does it.
22:37 eli: For the sha1, you can get it from the git tree you're using to create it,
22:37 eli: or if you're exporting it in some way, then it will be in "collects/repo-time-stamp/stamp.rkt".
22:37 jonrafkind: why is version_init necessary?
22:37 jonrafkind: i mean why do you check that the w/x/z/y matches up with $version?
22:38 eli: That's just a sanity check to avoid surprises; you can simplify it, of course.
22:38 jonrafkind: anyway it looks like we are doing the same thing -- parsing schvers.h
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