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00:38 mithos28: is there going to be a racketcon 2012?
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00:57 jonrafkind: probably
00:57 mithos28: any planned dates?
00:57 jonrafkind: not that I know of, but its always been in august
00:57 mithos28: it was july last year i though
00:58 jonrafkind: oh was it
00:58 jonrafkind: well july august.. whatever
00:58 mithos28: close enough
00:59 jonrafkind: the real question is will the racketcon 2011 videos be out before racketcon 2012
00:59 jonrafkind: $50 says no
00:59 mithos28: I won't take you up on that bet
00:59 jonrafkind: how about $5
01:00 mithos28: no, because you are betting in the direction I would wager money on
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01:45 Bearhug: Greetings, everyone. I just stumbled upon this, and I have no idea what it's for: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/boxes.html
01:47 jonrafkind: its like a pointer in C
01:47 jonrafkind: it lets you pass a mutable object around
01:47 jonrafkind: since racket is pass by value
01:49 Bearhug: So if I want to alter a table in a function, I'd have to pass it in a box?
01:50 jonrafkind: yea, unless the table is already an object
01:50 jonrafkind: basically if you do (define x 5) (foo x) you can't modify x inside the foo function and expect the mutation to be visible outside foo
01:50 jonrafkind: if you want the mutation to be visible after calling foo, then you should do (define x (box 5))
01:51 jonrafkind: but if you have (define x (new some-class ...)) then x is already an object so it can be mutated inside a function and the effects will be visible
01:51 Bearhug: I see, thanks :)
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02:40 mrcarrot: there is no ready compiled package with racket for openbsd... and i got curious to try it. when i try to compile i get this error message:
02:40 mrcarrot: JIT buffer overflow: 0x20fa5fa35 [0x20fa5c020,0x20fa5fa30] (1)!!
02:40 mrcarrot: Abort trap (core dumped)
02:41 mrcarrot: any idea what i could do?
02:41 jonrafkind: what version of racket
02:41 mrcarrot: 5.2.1
02:42 jonrafkind: can you send an email to the list. matthew will likely fix the bug within a day
02:42 mrcarrot: this was the line before the compilation crashed:
02:42 mrcarrot: env XFORM_PRECOMP=yes ../racketcgc -cqu ../../../racket/gc2/xform.rkt --setup . --cpp "gcc -E -I./.. -I../../../racket/gc2/../include -pthread    -DMZ_NO_ICONV"  --keep-lines -o xsrc/precomp.h ../../../racket/gc2/precomp.c
02:42 mrcarrot: to what list?
02:43 mrcarrot: dev@
02:43 jonrafkind: the racket list, http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/
02:43 jonrafkind: or dev
02:43 jonrafkind: either one
02:43 jonrafkind: or file a bug report if thats easier
02:44 mrcarrot: where do i file a bug report?
02:44 jonrafkind: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/
02:44 mrcarrot: okay, thanks
02:50 mrcarrot: now i have filed a bug report :)
02:50 jonrafkind: a winner is you
02:51 (quit) yoklov: Quit: computer sleeping
02:54 em: would any of you be interested in this -- it's free -- https://www.coursera.org/crypto/class
02:54 em: if you sign up for that some of us are making a study group channel in ##club-crypto if you want to hang out with us there too
02:55 Bearhug: I'm interested in all of those online classes that exist now
02:55 Bearhug: Need more time :D
02:56 em: yeah me too :(
02:56 Bearhug: You can watch and take the tests without enrolling, right? You just won't get anything afterwards.
02:56 em: there are apparently no real consequences to falling behind so I would say join up :)
02:56 em: I dont think you get anything either way :)
02:57 Bearhug: Ah okay
02:57 em: its not like you get college credit
02:57 Bearhug: I've based that on ai-class
02:57 em: and i didn't even use my real name
02:57 Bearhug: Where you got some kind of certificate
02:57 em: oh well 'certificate'. Not sure, you know, what that really means.
02:57 Bearhug: Yeah I didn't really care about that
02:57 em: you can get a certificate at Staples.
02:57 Bearhug: I just want to learn new stuff :D
02:57 em: yeah me too
02:58 Bearhug: I hope they are recurring.
02:58 em: so please sign up with this. I would like a couple more people to join us to make it more useful group
02:59 Bearhug: https://www.coursera.org/landing/hub.php
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03:12 mrcarrot: out of curiousity, as i know nothing about racket yet, except for that it is scheme based, is there any widespread program made with racket?
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03:14 mrcarrot: also, is racket implemented in racket? at least the compilation used gcc, but that could just be a bootstrap
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04:07 em: mrcarrot: I don't know the answer to your questions because Im new. But this channel is very friendly and helpful. It is just that it's nearly 4 am. so please stick around and someone will answer your questions eventually.
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05:01 hkBst: mrcarrot: more and more of racket is implemented in racket
05:02 mrcarrot: hkBst: nice!
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05:05 mrcarrot: is it possible with racket to have both static typed and lazy racket at the same time?
05:06 mrcarrot: i am interested in having both features at the same time combined into one language :)
05:08 hkBst: mrcarrot: yes, I believe it is
05:08 hkBst: at least when with ``at the same time'' you mean different parts of a program
05:09 mrcarrot: i meant more at the same parts of the program...
05:12 hkBst: mrcarrot: I believe some racket people are thinking about how it would be possible to combine languages like that, but at the moment that isn't possible with racket. You can use Typed Racket and do the lazy stuff manually, or you can use Haskell ;P
05:13 mrcarrot: hkBst: i am already into haskell :P
05:13 mrcarrot: hkBst: but i recently heard about racket and it sounded really interesting
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06:14 tim-brown: is there anything i should be aware of with (place-message-get) and/or (sync/timeout (list place...))
06:15 tim-brown: i lose place messages when i have sync/timeout in a loop watching my places
06:15 tim-brown: (i'm asking no specifics at the moment, just are there general caveats?)
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07:00 mrcarrot: is there any really good book with exercises for learning racket?
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07:01 noelw: There are good books about Scheme
07:01 (nick) bas_ -> Skola
07:02 noelw: and about learning programming
07:02 noelw: e.g. htdp.org
07:02 noelw: There is not (yet) anything about practical programming in Racket, other than the documentation that comes with Racket (docs.racket-lang.org). The docs are very good, so check them out if you haven't already.
07:03 mrcarrot: how much is racket differing from scheme?
07:03 noelw: Not much.
07:03 noelw: Scheme is really a family of languages
07:03 noelw: that several common traits
07:03 mrcarrot: is IO done in the same way as in scheme?
07:03 noelw: Yes, the port abstraction is the same.
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09:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/ri9qMg
09:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] avoid compiler warning - Matthew Flatt
09:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] work around problem with gcc-4.0 build on Lion - Matthew Flatt
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09:46 mrcarrot: heh, why is not the bot all the time in the channel?
09:47 nilyaK: idk, prob don't want to maintain a connection for one reason or another
09:50 chandler: freenode has a limit of 20 channels per connection
09:52 mrcarrot: ah, i have never been close to that. is it per IP or per user?
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09:58 chandler: it's per user; you can open multiple connections from the same IP
09:58 chandler: but for something like the github commit bot, it works just as well to join the channel as needed
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10:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/sAtC5Q
10:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix JIT bug exposed by OpenBSD 5.0 - Matthew Flatt
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11:33 stamourv: mrcarrot: Re books: I agree with noelw, HTDP is great.
11:33 stamourv: The second edition (http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/index.html) is even better.
11:33 stamourv: It's not complete, but for the parts that are written, I like it better.
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12:12 mrcarrot: yey. the bug i reported has a fix commited now!
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12:18 mrcarrot: lets see if it compiles now :)
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12:46 mrcarrot: yay, it did compile!! soon i get to try it... now it is just "make install" left
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13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/27mIFQ
13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] decompiler repairs related to changes for submodules - Matthew Flatt
13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] make GC backtrace show eq hash code - Matthew Flatt
13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] GC with backtraces: add structure-type listing - Matthew Flatt
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14:03 samth: Sgeo: there's a paper about the design of the kw argument system: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/scheme2009-fb.pdf
14:04 Sgeo: Thanks
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14:44 mrcarrot: how long time is usually "make install" taking for racket?
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14:50 jonrafkind: building the docs takes a long time
14:51 ben_m: The joys of compiling
14:55 offby1: mrcarrot: it's god-awful
14:56 offby1: starting up rudybot the first time after upgrading racket (on an admittedly slow and memory-starved virtual slice) can take 30 minutes.
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15:00 jonrafkind: offby1, you should just not build the docs
15:00 jonrafkind: this is how i compile racket: make && make plain-install && raco setup compiler macro-debugger syntax make setup scribble honu mred gui-debugger
15:00 jonrafkind: those are the only collections i care about
15:01 mrcarrot: how long time is that taking for you?
15:01 jonrafkind: i haven't timed it but i think under 10 minutes
15:02 jonrafkind: i should use -j2 to speed things up
15:02 mrcarrot: with "make install" it has been cruncing for a couple of hours i would guess. irssi had a segfault so i can not scroll up to see when i said that i am doing "make install"
15:04 mrcarrot: if i am pressing ctrl-c and then rerunning with -j2, will it be smart to continue from where it left?
15:05 stamourv: mrcarrot: It should.
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17:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/9Dj4SA
17:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix bug in `apply' expansion - Matthew Flatt
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17:31 Technodrome: I'm trying to get motivation to build this web app
17:31 Technodrome: i really hate the current crop of web frameworks
17:34 ben_m: I just use micro frameworks in the spirit of Sinatra
17:34 ben_m: ie. webnoir for Clojure, Dancer for Perl, etc.
17:35 ben_m: Not sure if there's one for Racket.
17:38 stamourv: Technodrome: I haven't used the Racket web server myself, but I've heard good things about it.
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17:39 chandler: I did a very small thing with it, but I felt like I was fighting the framework.
17:40 samth: ben_m: the racket web server infrastructure is much more in the micro-framework model
17:40 samth: but it's not as slick as something like sinatra
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17:41 chandler: The web-server lang is interesting and nice, but I didn't really want it, and the documentation left me more than a little confused about how to write an application without it.
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17:50 Technodrome: stamourv:  what have you heard?
17:52 stamourv: I heard it's pretty easy to use, and that it mostly gets outof your way.
17:52 samth: Technodrome: i wrote a very simple web-app using it recently
17:52 stamourv: But I guess you could say that of Racket in general. ;)
17:52 samth: it's bare-bones, but does useful stuff
17:52 samth: and you should *definitely* read the "Continue" tutorial
17:52 (quit) Skola: Quit: Lost terminal
17:52 Technodrome: what did you do?
17:53 Technodrome: i have
17:53 samth: wrote a web-app for collecting github logins
17:53 samth: very simple
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17:54 Technodrome: how well does it handle forms etc?
17:54 Technodrome: i'm just tired of all the ruby on rails stuff
17:54 Technodrome: and all this n that
17:55 samth: forms work fine
17:55 samth: it's a *lot* less stuff than RoR or anything like that
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18:04 Tyr42: is there a way to add a ? to identifiers in macros?  I'm trying to make a  macro that replicates the define-datatypes form in advanced student
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18:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/rKsfEA
18:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Preparing for implementing chunked encoding - Jay McCarthy
18:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Reading chunked requests - Jay McCarthy
18:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Outputing with chunked encoding - Jay McCarthy
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18:19 stamourv: Tyr42: You would need to break hygiene, but that's possible.
18:19 stamourv: rudybot: doc format-id
18:19 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
18:19 rudybot: stamourv: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: racket/syntax
18:19 stamourv: rudybot: (require racket/syntax)
18:19 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
18:19 stamourv: rudybot: doc format-id
18:19 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/syntax-util.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Fsyntax..rkt)._format-id))
18:19 stamourv: Tyr42: ^
18:20 Tyr42: thanks
18:21 Tyr42: I was just looking in the source for the student languages, but it's got soo much error checking it's hard to read
18:23 stamourv: Error checking is pretty important in the student languages.
18:23 stamourv: And that code predates `syntax-parse', which makes writing macros with good error messages much easier.
18:23 Tyr42: ah, what is syntax-parse?
18:23 stamourv: (Although it may have been rewritten to use it, I don't know.)
18:24 stamourv: You know `syntax-case'?
18:24 Tyr42: sorta
18:24 Tyr42: just learning macros
18:24 stamourv: `syntax-parse' is its much better cousin.
18:24 Tyr42: hmm, I'll check it out
18:24 Tyr42: it's in the guide?
18:25 stamourv: Either in the guide, or in its own docs, but it's in the Racket docs.
18:25 stamourv: rudybot: doc syntax-parse
18:25 rudybot: stamourv: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: syntax/parse
18:25 stamourv: rudybot: (require syntax/parse)
18:25 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
18:25 stamourv: rudybot: doc syntax-parse
18:25 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/syntax/Parsing_Syntax.html#(form._((lib._syntax%2Fparse..rkt)._syntax-parse))
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18:25 stamourv: Basically, it provides very nice tools (like syntax classes) to help you factor your macros, to help you produce good error messages, etc.
18:26 Tyr42: so, I'm not exactly clear when in general to #' something in macros
18:26 stamourv: `#'' is like `quote'.
18:26 stamourv: It basically means: this is generated code.
18:26 stamourv: And it does interpolation of pattern variables.
18:26 Tyr42: (define-syntax define-datatype
18:26 Tyr42: (syntax-rules ()
18:26 Tyr42: [(_ type [constructor fields ...] ...)
18:26 Tyr42: (begin (struct constructor (fields ...) #:transparent) …)]))
18:27 Tyr42: works, but the stuff in the begin is code
18:27 stamourv: Right. `syntax-rules' is simpler, you don't need the `#''.
18:27 Tyr42: oh, right
18:28 stamourv: But with procedural macros, the body of the macro can be arbitrary code run at compile-time, so you need to be explicit about what's generated code.
18:28 Tyr42: but if I wanted to splice in the name with a ?, I'm going to need to use syntax-case
18:28 stamourv: Right, you would need procedural macros, which means you probably want either `syntax-case' or `syntax-parse'.
18:29 stamourv: I really recommend the latter.
18:29 Tyr42: ok I will read the rest
18:29 stamourv: http://vimeo.com/16540696
18:29 (quit) djcb``: Remote host closed the connection
18:29 stamourv: That's a talk about `syntax-parse' by its author, ryanc.
18:30 Tyr42: thank you
18:30 Tyr42: you have been helpful
18:31 stamourv: Always happy to help! :)
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20:08 Tyr42: so, I have worked on it a bit
20:08 Tyr42: and have
20:08 Tyr42: (define-syntax (define-datatype stx)
20:08 Tyr42: (syntax-parse stx
20:08 Tyr42: [(_ type:id [constructor:id fields:id ...] ...)
20:08 Tyr42: (with-syntax ([type? (format-id #'type #:source #'type
20:08 Tyr42: "~a?" (syntax-e #'type))]
20:08 Tyr42: 
20:08 Tyr42: )
20:09 Tyr42: #'(begin (struct constructor (fields ...) #:transparent) ...
20:09 Tyr42: (define (type? x)
20:09 Tyr42: (empty? x))))]))
20:09 Tyr42: and that does what I expect it to
20:09 Tyr42: but I want to check if x matches any of the constructor's predicates
20:10 Tyr42: and I am not quite sure how to "map" format-id over constructor ...
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20:12 samth: Tyr42: (map my-function (syntax->list #'(constructor ...)))
20:14 Tyr42: ok
20:15 Tyr42: that will return a list of syntax objects, correct?
20:15 Tyr42: can I then match that with
20:15 samth: (syntax->list #'(constructor ...)) produces a list of syntax objects
20:15 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
20:15 samth: then your function can produce whatever it wants
20:16 Tyr42: ok
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22:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/gcNb7Q
22:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] updated todo list - Matthias Felleisen
22:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] error handler now uses Guillaume's rewrites - Matthias Felleisen
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23:23 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/lgpSWg
23:23 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] extend string-literal syntax to allow surrogate-style \u pairs - Matthew Flatt
23:23 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] change `module-path?' to subsume `path?' - Matthew Flatt
23:23 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix default `load/use-compiled' handler - Matthew Flatt
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