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04:49 Diarmid: I know it's too late for my reply to be of any use to the original 'poster', but should anyone else ask about running processes with customized environments, I'd suggest running the shell itself, and using the shell command line arguments to adjust the variables as needed, and launch whatever executable they were trying to launch.  That works at least on Windows and Unix shells.
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09:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/dNBlIQ
09:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Rackety - Robby Findler
09:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] clean up redex bitmap tests (under mac os x) - Robby Findler
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12:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/zOcscg
12:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] save a new set of unix bitmaps for the redex bitmap test - Robby Findler
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13:06 bremner: jamessan: do you have time to deal with that libpng thing, or shall I put it on my TODO list?
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13:59 samth: bremner: what's wrong with libpng?
14:00 bremner: samth: oh just some transition in Debian, nothing racket specific
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14:00 samth: bremner: ah
14:01 samth: bremner: will we need to add some other possible so version?
14:02 bremner: apperently libpng 1.2 will be replaced by 1.5 in Debian.  I'm not sure if this affects anything other than debian packaging.
14:03 samth: bremner: we will have to make sure that racket behaves properly when only 1.5 is available
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14:07 crunchybumble: I'm missing something obvious. When I define a new var to be a built-in, and then redefine that built-in, I'm getting an identifier used before definition error. What am I misunderstanding?
14:07 crunchybumble: Simple example http://pastebin.com/7Cbg2iKf
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14:12 chandler: crunchybumble: Both "new-car" and "car" are within the same scope. If that wasn't the case, you couldn't write mutually recursive definitions at the top level.
14:14 chandler: Also, you're not redefining the built-in car; you're shadowing it.
14:15 crunchybumble: Mhm.
14:15 crunchybumble: Oh, yes. right.
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14:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/DirjBw
14:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] try using make-bitmap for the bitmaps under unix to see if drdr - Robby Findler
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15:41 samth: eli: it would be very nice to have a `delay/values'
15:41 samth: which would make this work: (define-values (x y) (delay/values 2 (values 'a 'b))
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15:49 samth: eli: https://gist.github.com/1980985
15:50 samth: eli: would be nice to have in the `racket/promise' lib
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15:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/koFZow
15:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] bind all attributes from a syntax class. allow multiple expressions in a match list - Jon Rafkind
15:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] use syntax properties to differentiate parsed syntax from unparsed - Jon Rafkind
15:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] fix some tests. always reparse the right hand side of an operator - Jon Rafkind
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15:57 jonrafkind: the phase thing is in the guide there, i just forgot to write iti in the commit message
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16:10 asumu: jonrafkind: it'd be useful if you reply on the mailing list thread on it
16:10 asumu: just so people know about it.
16:11 jonrafkind: ok
16:11 asumu: And kudos on the guide entry.
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16:13 jonrafkind: thanks
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16:25 mimcpher: Is there an overview document of Racket's implementation?  In particular, I'm wondering how much is written in C, and how plausible that would be to swap out for another language (Javascript)
16:26 jonrafkind: thats what dyoo's whalesong is
16:26 jonrafkind: racket implemented in javascript
16:26 eli: samth: It doesn't fit there for two reasons -- first, it's weird in its idea of what gets delayed (which your `printf' demonstrates), and a more important reason, the `delay/*'s implement different kinds of delaying but this is not doing that it's a composition of delays.  You can see how having taht would require `delay/values/*' for every `delay/*' (which clarifies how this thing really wants to be a parameterized
16:26 eli: macro).
16:26 jonrafkind: according to dyoo there are over 800 primitives to implement
16:26 eli: samth: You can also do this: (define p (delay (printf "wheee\n") (list 1 2)))
16:27 jonrafkind: mimcpher, theres documentation on the abstract racket machine but not on the actual code itself
16:27 eli: samth: (define-values [x y] (values (lazy (car (force p))) (lazy (cadr (force p)))))
16:27 samth: eli: that doesn't work if the body of the expression produces multiple values in a non-trivial way
16:27 eli: samth: Which shows that it's really conflating two concepts, one packs two values in a single lazy wrapper, and the other does the convenience destructuring.
16:28 samth: eli: i think it's a more fundamental concept than that
16:28 samth: it provides a series of coordinated promises
16:28 eli: I'm not talking about a different implementation, I'm talking about it doing two different things, one is a promise.
16:29 eli: It's similar to a parallel map thing, implemented with promises -- there too you have a combinator but not a new kind of delayer.
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16:33 samth: eli: i disagree that it's not a new kind of delayer
16:33 samth: but we can argue about this some other time
16:33 eli: samth: That's easy to see.  Why is the first `lazy' in your macro?
16:33 eli: Why not `delay/thread'?
16:34 eli: Why not `delay/idle'?
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16:35 samth: that's all true -- it's orthogonal to that questino
16:35 samth: so clearly it should be parameterized over that, or provide different versions
16:36 samth: but that doesn't mean it isn't a fundamental sort of abstraction
16:36 eli: Exactly, it's a promise combinator, and `racket/promise' doesn't do these things.
16:36 eli: jonrafkind: You're using double quotes where you should use ``''.
16:37 eli: jonrafkind: You should make it a single evaluator unless you really need two separate ones -- those sandboxes are the main cost of running the docs.
16:37 jonrafkind: you have commit access
16:37 jonrafkind: J/K LOOOOOOOOOOL
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16:38 samth: eli: pr 675 makes me sad
16:39 eli: jonrafkind: "ignore socket communication" is weird, since it's any kind of communication, like file descriptors, plain files, persistent memory, etc.
16:39 jonrafkind: yea i sort of wrote that on the fly, probably a better analogy would do
16:40 eli: jonrafkind: One more point that is begging to be made is that phase numbers are relative coordinates -- it's kind of implicit but making it explicit early on will improve things considerably.
16:42 eli: jonrafkind: There's this: We get an error 'reference to an identifier before its definition: sbutton'.
16:42 eli: It uses quotes where an error fornt should be used.
16:42 eli: jonrafkind: What does it mean to 'import at phase 1'
16:43 eli: jonrafkind: -> What does it mean to ``import at phase 1''
16:43 jonrafkind: ok uhh I mean why don't you just make these changes. is it more efficient for you to tell me what fixes to make and then for me to make them?
16:43 jonrafkind: i guess I don't really mind, it just seems sort of srtange
16:43 eli: Because each of this is probably having a bunch more, and there's also fixes to the text that require more careful reading through it.
16:45 eli: jonrafkind: Also, the existing section 16.2.4 should probably be tweaked a little, the least it should have is a pointer to the new section.
16:46 eli: samth: What's the problem there?
16:46 samth: eli: note the lack of a header indicating who it's from
16:46 eli: Is that the only one with that problem?
16:47 samth: don't know yet
16:47 samth: it's the first
16:47 eli: samth: you mean a `From:' header, or some gnats field
16:48 samth: a From: header
16:48 samth: eli: note that http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=675 shows no reporter's email
16:49 eli: Does too.
16:50 eli: (fixed it)
16:52 samth: eli: turns out there are a bunch of others
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16:53 samth: eli: so i'll just make the parser deal with them
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16:59 eli: samth: Better if you send me a list, since they're probably coming from different people.
16:59 eli: But probably fine to make your parser deal with them if they're bogus.
17:00 nilyaK1: '(bug bug bug bug bug)
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17:05 samth: eli: i'll send you a list once i have the whole list
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17:19 eli: stamourv: If you plan on interactions, then can't beat the simple sh syntax.  (mv "old" "new") is way too verbose for the command-line syntax.
17:21 eli: stamourv: So my conclusion was that you really want to have two syntaxes, one sh-like for interactions, and the usual sexpr one for code.  It's really the same thing that happens in shells too, where the style that many people use for scripting is very different than the style you'd use interactively.
17:22 eli: stamourv: Also, I have some (really ancient) code that makes building pipes easy, and also unifies subprocesses and racket threads so you can make pipes that mix both things with no difference to the rest of the code.
17:24 stamourv: eli: That thing was a quick experiment to see what it would be like to have your $PATH be your stdlib in Racket.
17:24 stamourv: Which, IMO, is one of the nice things about bash.
17:24 stamourv: I haven't really thought about syntax, or anything else really.
17:24 stamourv: But I'd be interested in looking at your code.
17:26 eli: stamourv: I don't think that you'd get much out of treating $PATH as more than what it is...
17:27 eli: But in any case, I sent you the code.
17:27 eli: (To justify some of the weird style there -- it's really ancient, the time stamp on that file is from 2002.)
17:29 stamourv: Re $PATH: I think that's actually pretty powerful.
17:29 stamourv: Re style: I've spent some time in the Swindle source, so I know what to expect. :P
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17:33 eli: stamourv: Swindle should generally be better,
17:33 eli: What do you see in $PATH that is more than a search path?
17:38 stamourv: I see it as being a library.
17:41 gf3: does anyone mind if I make a small off-topic announcement?
17:41 gf3: #lisp minded ಠ_ಠ
17:42 stamourv: Go ahead.
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17:44 gf3: some may find it useful that I made a super simple clojure pastebin with code eval: http://cljbin.com/
17:44 gf3: example: http://cljbin.com/paste/4f4da1a6e4b06bdb1b33f987
17:44 gf3: that's all, thanks guys <3
17:45 samth: gf3: cool!
17:46 gf3: thanks, samth!
17:46 samth: gf3: i find it non-intuitive that "Paste" is the "Run" button
17:46 samth: and that "Fork" is the "Edit" button
17:46 gf3: samth: (soon) I intend to add a Run button, so you can run the code before Saving
17:46 samth: ah
17:47 gf3: samth: do you think that'll help?
17:47 samth: gf3: is it running on a server, or in clojurescript?
17:47 samth: that would help
17:47 gf3: samth: it's running on Heroku
17:47 samth: but you could say "Paste + Run"
17:47 samth: or "Save + Run"
17:47 gf3: ahh, good call, I like that wording
17:47 samth: and "Fork to edit"
17:49 asumu: gf3: slick design.
17:51 gf3: asumu: thank you!
17:51 gf3: samth: https://github.com/gf3/CLJBIN/commit/8a1af791a5a114634a0adbfb71190cf57e93d3e8
17:51 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/73ozmss
17:52 jamessan: bremner: I think there's some room to clean up our build dependencies. Gtk, Pango, Cairo, and libffi are the only obvious dependencies (from src/README and src/configure) but then the collects use various libraries
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17:54 jamessan: are the ffi-lib calls in the collects all used at build time, or are some of those runtime? is there a cut & dry way to tell?
17:55 samth: jamessan: some may only be used at runtime
17:55 samth: for example, the ones in the ffi examples directory :)
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18:02 jamessan: guess I'll take the "remove dependencies, build, compare build log/resulting binaries" approach then
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18:08 jamessan: huh, NEU thinks I'm a professor and that I have TRACE results...
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18:18 samth: aaaaaargh, text encoding
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18:19 PfhorSlayer: I have a syntax that is expected to look like (new type key0 value0 key1 value1 ...). What I want to do is run each of those key value pairs through a separate syntax that may mutate them or whatever. What I can't figure out how to do is make that syntax return "key value" instead of "(key value)", so that the other syntax treats it correctly.
18:19 PfhorSlayer: Is there a way to do that?
18:20 samth: PfhorSlayer: macros can only expand to one form
18:20 samth: maybe you should make a separate new* version that takes (key value)
18:20 samth: and expands to the regular `new'
18:21 PfhorSlayer: oh! we have one of those!
18:21 PfhorSlayer: Is that what the * suffix usually denotes?
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18:21 PfhorSlayer: That the function takes pairs like that as lists, as opposed to raw elements?
18:22 samth: PfhorSlayer: no, the * denotes "like this other thing, but different"
18:22 PfhorSlayer: Ah
18:22 samth: like x' in math
18:23 PfhorSlayer: Implementor-defined meaning :)
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18:36 stamourv: jamessan: Hope you got good evaluations. :P
18:36 stamourv: (And I just got the same email.)
18:37 stamourv: Which is odd, given that I'm not officially a TA.
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19:01 PfhorSlayer: How do I write the syntax pattern that matches 1 or more pairs of items, not wrapped in a list?
19:02 PfhorSlayer: like, this should match: (foo 'a 'b 'c 'd 'e 'f)
19:02 samth: PfhorSlayer: use ~seq
19:02 PfhorSlayer: and also (foo 'a 'b)
19:02 PfhorSlayer: we haven't fully upgraded to racket yet, I don't think I have that
19:02 samth: oh, then you have to write your own recursive function
19:03 PfhorSlayer: like, one that pulls off the last elements and then operates on them and recurses on the remaining?
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19:16 samth: PfhorSlayer: yup
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19:34 Diarmid: I know I missed the discussion by a long shot, but IPython and Scsh seem to use syntax not that far off from (mv "old" "new") and get on okay.  I use IPython instead of Bash for most tasks, since I can work with files with spaces, ampersands, and so on in them, without worrying that somewhere there will be a lethal expansion or confusion about the arguments of some process called.
19:35 Diarmid: Python also has excellent string manipulation, and while you can get close with Awk and Sed, it's a lot slower, due to spawning all the processes.
19:38 offby1: just cause language X is better than bash doesn't mean it's good :)  (disclaimer: I like Python fine)
19:41 Diarmid: offby1: This is true.  My point was, since someone wants to use Racket in almost exactly the same way as IPython, the idea is definitely more workable than others seem to think.  IPython has done it.  I use it as my shell every day.  I find it /way/ more convenient than Bash.  I know less about Scsh, having only fiddled with it a little, but it's already a Scheme shell, so it should be even closer.  Basically "this is not a sill
19:42 Diarmid: offby1: I'll take a few extra parens (or in IPython's case, object.method's) any day, to get reasonable handling of things like whitespace. :P
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19:52 PfhorSlayer: is there a function that can take a list and split it up into sublists, each containing a certain number of elements from the original list?
19:53 PfhorSlayer: Basically I want ('a 'b 'c 'd 'e 'f 'g 'h) to turn into (('a 'b) ('c 'd) ('e 'f) ('g 'h))
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20:15 asumu: PfhorSlayer: I can't think of one off the top of my head, but it's easy to define one.
20:16 asumu: rudybot: (define (by-n lst n) (if (empty? lst) '() (cons (take n lst) (by-n (drop n lst) n))))
20:16 rudybot: asumu: Done.
20:17 asumu: rudybot: (by-n '(a b c d e f g h) 2)
20:17 rudybot: asumu: error: take: expects type <non-negative exact integer> as 2nd argument, given: '(a b c d e f g h); other arguments were: 2
20:17 asumu: rudybot: (define (by-n lst n) (if (empty? lst) '() (cons (take lst n) (by-n (drop lst n) n))))
20:17 rudybot: asumu: Done.
20:17 asumu: rudybot: (by-n '(a b c d e f g h) 2)
20:17 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: ((a b) (c d) (e f) (g h))
20:17 asumu: rudybot: (by-n '(a b c d e f g h) 3)
20:17 rudybot: asumu: error: take: index 3 too large for list: '(g h)
20:17 asumu: Heh.
20:20 PfhorSlayer: Ah, cool
20:20 PfhorSlayer: Thanks :)
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22:35 eli: danking, stamourv: ping
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23:32 eli: jonrafkind: ping
23:32 offby1: whoa, don't flood the channel
23:34 eli: Yeah, it's like a graveyard party here.
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23:45 ozzloy: so udacity is doing "the design of computer programs" starting april 16th
23:46 ozzloy: any chance that's based on "how to design programs"?
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23:49 eli: ozzloy: Judging by the promo video that I'm looking at, very highly unlikely...
23:53 jonrafkind: eli, pong
23:53 ozzloy: eli, link?
23:54 eli: ozzloy: http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/cs101
23:55 eli: ozzloy: It just reeks of "popular".
23:55 ozzloy: oh, but this is CS212, not cs101
23:55 eli: jonrafkind: Do you plan to fix those things, or should I do some stuff now?
23:55 ozzloy: yes, it does aim to be popular
23:55 ozzloy: but i'm guessing the answer is "no"
23:55 jonrafkind: those alternatives are not mutually exclusive
23:55 jonrafkind: the answer to both is yes
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23:56 ozzloy: because they would have talked to you at some point
23:56 ozzloy: i just hoped and the names were similar
23:57 eli: ozzloy: Well, name-dropping sergey from google for a CS intro course is not really a promising direction...
23:57 eli: Not that I have anything against him, only against the idea of having him talk in an attempt to look popular.
23:58 eli: Same goes for the obligatory mention of his AI course that attracted "hundred thousand people".
23:58 mithos28: one of the teachers was a google fellow as well
23:58 eli: Right -- not a good sign either...
23:59 eli: (Not the google-fellow-ness, just the mentioning of that.)
23:59 eli: jonrafkind: The thing is that if you started to work on that, then any commit I'll make will mess things up for you.
23:59 mithos28: The syllabus made it look bad for me, starting with extracting a link
23:59 jonrafkind: go ahead
23:59 ozzloy: i'm surprised by this reaction.  what would you rather them do?