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03:54 Guest46248: HAHAHAHA, Continue conference manager ( http://continue.cs.brown.edu/ ), the "flagship" racket web application is actually written in Python, you scammers!!!
03:54 Guest46248: shame on you!!!!!!!!!!
03:54 Guest46248: :))))
03:54 Kaylin: what is this now?
03:55 Guest46248: this is thruth, thruth, nothing but the truth hehehe
03:57 (quit) jrslepak: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
03:58 mithos28: Where does it say it is the 'flagship' racket web application
03:58 Guest46248: in numerous artificial scientific articles written by PLT Team
03:58 Guest46248: hahahaha
03:58 Guest46248: it's really funny
03:59 Kaylin: I'm still confused
03:59 Guest46248: mee too
03:59 Guest46248: :)
03:59 Kaylin: I think we're confused about different things.
03:59 Guest46248: when i saw this i couldn't belive
03:59 Kaylin: I hope at least
03:59 mithos28: how do you know it is written in python?
03:59 Guest46248: why, kaylin?
04:00 Kaylin: because I'm confused about what we're talking about.
04:00 Guest46248: because when i tested it, one of the page was broken and python error message appeared
04:00 Guest46248: hahahahah, what a shame!
04:00 Guest46248: :)
04:01 mithos28: I don't understand what the shame is, also PLT is not just racket
04:01 Guest46248: Kaylin, I like you, I'm sure you are pretty sexy, just like a racket
04:02 Guest46248: it's a shame that there are none decent web application writen in racket
04:02 Guest46248: and now even http://continue.cs.brown.edu/ turns out is not written in racket
04:03 Kaylin: I'm not sexy, unless you're into MtF women and if so you are in the minority, unfortunately.
04:03 Guest46248: oh, pitty
04:03 Guest46248: :)
04:03 Kaylin: :(
04:05 Kaylin: so wait what is this, like a javascript interpreter?
04:07 mithos28: Kaylin: what are you talking about? Continue?
04:07 Kaylin: oh that looks kinda neat
04:07 Guest46248: please, see this for more info: http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/sk-continue/paper.pdf
04:07 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/6rsdm7r
04:08 Kaylin: this flapjax thing
04:08 Guest46248: yeah, kinda neat, but in python not in racket hehehe
04:08 mithos28: Guest46248: yeah 10 years changes things
04:08 Kaylin: so? stuff can still be neat!
04:08 Kaylin: except this huge pile of math homework I need to be doing
04:08 Kaylin: that
04:09 Kaylin: 's not neat at all
04:09 mithos28: oh well 10 years will change that
04:09 Kaylin: math homework? yea it might be neat then
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04:11 Kaylin: isn't Drracket written in racket? :O
04:12 (quit) dme: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
04:12 mithos28: yeah, and it suffers the same problem as all IDEs
04:12 Kaylin: whatcha mean?
04:13 mithos28: It doesn't offer much over vim and eats all my ram
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04:13 Kaylin: it's just hungry :(
04:13 mithos28: If I had nice desktop that would be fine
04:13 Guest46248: my DrRacket chrashes alll the time
04:14 mithos28: but my laptop doesn't have 12 gigs of ram
04:14 mithos28: Guest46248: have you sent bug reports
04:14 Kaylin: yea, I recently got a new desktop, it was so exciting for me
04:14 Guest46248: yes
04:14 Guest46248: hey, look drracket's logo today
04:15 Guest46248: it's different than usual
04:15 mithos28: It changes a lot
04:15 Kaylin: so like, it's variable?
04:15 Kaylin: >_>
04:15 mithos28: It changes on the weekend vs weekday
04:16 mimcpher: Logo changes are totally my favourite feature.
04:16 Guest46248: on of the rare :)
04:17 Guest46248: one
04:18 Kaylin: if I had a cool idea, I'd write it in racket, but
04:18 Kaylin: cool ideas are not for me lately.
04:18 eli: RacketNoob^W Guest46248: Please stop spamming.
04:18 Guest46248: Hi, eli!
04:18 Guest46248: how are you? :)
04:19 eli: Could be better if you'd avoid trolling.
04:19 Guest46248: heeey, please, don't be angry
04:19 Guest46248: i'm not as bad hehehe
04:20 eli: I know, but your style tends to get people in unproductive flames, so please don't do that here.
04:21 eli: And BTW, this is not the first time that a PLT project includes different languages -- flapjax, which Kaylin mentioned, is completely in JS; Shriram's student (who has worked on the current version of Continue) is mostly hacking in Haskell.
04:22 eli: So there's no need to puff about it.
04:22 Guest46248: why do you ban me wherever I show up? Please, don't! I like racket! I only noticed that Continue is written in python despite numerous articles said that is written in Racket
04:23 mithos28: It also said it was rewritten
04:23 Guest46248: jeah, bu wiy if Racket is so great for web development?
04:23 Guest46248: yeah, but why if Racket is so great for web development?
04:24 Kaylin: because it's fun? and if it's not fun I get no work done?
04:24 Kaylin: =/
04:24 eli: Guest46248: I obviously didn't ban you now, and I don't remember doing that for anyone other than some freenode-targetted trojan's about a week ago.
04:24 Guest46248: I'm talking about racket users group
04:24 eli: You're not banned from that either.
04:25 Guest46248: i cannot post there
04:27 eli: Like I said, you're not banned from there.
04:28 eli: But if you continue to post the kind of off-topic open attacks, then you should know that you're basically testing the limits of patience people have for that kind of junk.
04:29 Guest46248: off-topic? But i'm talking about web apps (not) written in Racket
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04:29 Kaylin: are you confused as to what eli means, or are you just trying to continue to discuss it for another reason?
04:29 eli: No, last time you were talking about academic papers and other such nonsense.
04:30 Guest46248: Is it true that "continue" appeared in numerous PLT articles, no?
04:30 Guest46248: but now, when I want to look at this "starship" app, what i see? Python!
04:30 Guest46248: :)
04:30 Kaylin: I'm not sure, I don't read them, but if you feel they're wrong I'm sure you can submit corrections somewhere
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04:31 Kaylin: I don't see how us in general are going to fix it but maybe I'm just not informed on this topic.
04:31 eli: It is, and there was neither claim for it being any kind of ship, nor guarantee that it will remain in racket or even be maintained at all.
04:31 eli: And that's that.
04:31 Guest46248: OK
04:31 Guest46248: thanx for clarification
04:32 eli: Kaylin: It's just an irrelevant flame that has happened on the mailing list.  Nothing to see there.  Really.
04:34 Guest46248: Look eli, I just wont to learn web development with Racket
04:35 Guest46248: So, i thought it would be nice to see som real-world web app written in racket
04:35 Kaylin: racket-lang.org is a great place to start
04:35 Guest46248: but cannot find one
04:35 Kaylin: there are some pretty fun tutorials
04:35 Kaylin: http://docs.racket-lang.org/continue/index.html
04:35 Kaylin: is a fun one!
04:36 Guest46248: Yeah, i Know that, Kaylin
04:36 Guest46248: but this is only superficiall tutorial
04:36 Guest46248: not a serious web app
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04:46 eli: Guest46248: If you really want that, then do read the Continue tutorial, then ask specific -- technical -- questions about what you're trying to do.
04:46 eli: You could then write your own tutorial for writing a "non-superficial" web application.
04:47 eli: If it's good enough, I can guarantee that nobody would mind getting it into the docs, or something similar.
04:48 Guest46248: hahaha, nice joke
04:48 Guest46248: :)
04:49 Guest46248: look, danny's tutorial don't talk about templating at all, nothing about caching some parts of web page etc, etc
04:49 eli: Guest46248: You do realize that by classifying the prospect of you writing a good tutorial as a joke you're practically justifying the current situation?
04:49 Guest46248: and Jay's documentation is horribly unreadable
04:49 eli: Here's the thing:
04:50 eli: "Jay's documentation is horribly unreadable" -- that's a bad criticism that does not contribute anything, and therefore only leads to flames.
04:50 eli: Instead, you should make a quick writeup of things that you found confusing, and list them -- *that* would be useful.
04:51 eli: Even better if you have specific suggestions on how to fix things.
04:51 Guest46248: look: i want to learn from YOU (i.e. PLT team) how to write web apps in Racket, not to YOU how to do that!
04:51 Kaylin: I'm a random student chilling in this channel
04:51 Kaylin: because racket is cool
04:51 Kaylin: do you mean eli or do you mean everybody
04:51 eli: And by specific I don't mean "add an example for a practical application", but suggestions that could be used to improve the docs.
04:52 Guest46248: correction: look: i want to learn from YOU (i.e. PLT team) how to write web apps in Racket, not to teach YOU how to do that!
04:52 eli: Bear in mind that the web server's reference *is* exactly that -- a reference: it's meant to be percise, and therefore can be hard to follow.
04:52 Kaylin: like saying  "I'd like to see a nice example of (x)"?
04:52 Guest46248: "may be"??? :)
04:52 eli: I'm not asking you to teach people how to write documentation.
04:52 Guest46248: but eli, who is supposed to write beter documentation? Who?
04:52 eli: I'm asking you to be constructive about helping to improve the situation.
04:53 Kaylin: what part did you find confusing I can try to help! I like reading things
04:53 Guest46248: Kaylin did you ever read this: http://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/index.html  ??
04:53 eli: Guest46248: People like Jay *will* improve the documentation, but as someone who knows the web server intimately, it is *extremely* hard for him to put himself in the shoes of a newbie.
04:54 Kaylin: not front to back, but when I needed to look at something in the tutorial or that I was playing around with a few weeks back yes
04:54 eli: It's exactly because of that that providing feedback (constructive one) from people with an outside perspective is extremely valuable.
04:55 eli: Another thing to keep in mind is that the Racket community is in general small -- it tends to have more hackers that are good at writing code than writers that are good at writing books.
04:55 eli: It's a situation that will hopefully improve, but that will take time.
04:56 Guest46248: Eli, the PLT team's goal is to make racket more popular, right? But with such documentation it's no wonder that nobody write their web apps in Racket
04:56 Guest46248: Not even maintainers of Continue
04:57 eli: Yes, the goal of the group is to make Racket more popular -- but we're not people who have experience in writing "Foo for Dummies" books.
04:58 Guest46248: than Racket never will be more popular
04:58 eli: Some people have some experience with that, but writing texts is very different than hacking -- and most people are, unsurprisingly, focusing on hacking.
04:58 eli: That's a bogus conclusion.
04:58 Guest46248: You are excelent writer, Eli. I Have read your macro lessons
04:58 eli: The situation is not different than any other language.
04:59 eli: It takes a ton of effort and talent to write good texts.
04:59 eli: The only reason that I could write some good texts on macros is that I spent a good number of years teaching it.
04:59 eli: And I'm using "teaching" here intentionally -- *using* it is not enough.
05:00 Guest46248: I have read your lessons from here: http://pl.barzilay.org/ and i was thrilled
05:00 eli: *Implementing* it is, in a sense, even worse:
05:00 eli: it makes you aware of all kinds of details that are important for you as an implementor, but are totally irrelevant for newbies.
05:01 eli: For example, I can guarantee you that I'd do a crap job writing about the FFI -- because I know how it's implemented, therefore I don't have a "user" perspective.
05:01 Guest46248: OK, that's understandable: FFI is boring
05:01 Guest46248: :)
05:02 eli: (That, I strongly disagree with...)
05:02 eli: If you're talking about web templates -- I implemented the @ syntax reader, and I'd do a bad job describing it.
05:02 eli: Sorry I *did* do a bad job describing it.
05:03 Guest46248: Hey, I almost forgot: what about RacketCon conference videos?
05:03 eli: (And BTW, the Continue application is still irrelevant here -- its maintainer knows enough about Racket and the web server...)
05:03 eli: Yes, the racketcon videos not being out is very bad.
05:04 eli: We had a volunteer student that took the videos, he has graduated and therefore does it extremely slowly.
05:04 eli: Take strangeloop for example: it's an organized conference, with everything you'd expect -- including videos.
05:05 Guest46248: I'm surprised that I was not banned when I said that on the users group, hehehe
05:05 eli: (If you're talking about the videos, then it's obvious: we know that it's bad that they're not out.)
05:05 eli: Those strangeloop videos come out several months after the conference,
05:06 eli: and this is with a person who is pretty much doing that as a main job.
05:06 eli: (Maybe even all year.)
05:06 Guest46248: can you give me a link?
05:06 eli: We don't have such luxury of having a full time person do everything.
05:07 eli: thestrangeloop.com
05:08 eli: And you mentioned the continue tutorial not having templates: this is because it was written before the template feature was added -- it would certainly be good to add a chapter on that, and like I said, you can help.
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05:09 Guest46248: But prof. Felleisen is getting ample funding from the government for "education breakout", right? Pay someone to write good documentation. Pay Charles Petzold hehehe!
05:13 eli: Guest46248: You're grossly misjudging the funding level...
05:14 Guest46248: Who knows, maybe C. Petzold would not seek a lot? :)
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05:19 eli: Guest46248: He'd need to learn the language, use it, hack some projects in it, then write about it.  That's a huge effort.
05:20 eli: Add to that the fact that there's a much smaller market for Racket, unlike windows books.
05:20 eli: Another thing to add is that it's a *language*, and therefore most people want "free online books" about it.
05:20 eli: All of this means that there's no real money to make out of such a book.
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05:21 eli: And to sum all of this up: my guess is that the sum of all funding that all PLT people get is not going to be enough to get him to write a Racket book.
05:30 Guest46248: And currently he is very busy (he just learns new win metro api and is writting about it): http://www.charlespetzold.com/blog/2012/02/Programming-Windows-6th-Edition.html
05:30 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7d75n83
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05:32 Guest46248: Eli, did you ever think that you write a book of racket?
05:33 Guest46248: It would be great! :)
05:34 eli: It would be nice if I had time for that.  Just those texts in my pl course took a huge effort.
05:34 Kaylin: or you could intentionally write confusing documentation and then sell support to confused students, making the entire situation extremely meta.
05:35 Guest46248: Yeah, but those texts are great! Much better than anything else i have read from PLT team!
05:35 Guest46248: lol Kaylin :)
05:35 Kaylin: I can see it now; headlines read: Racket racket!
05:36 Guest46248: :)
05:38 Guest46248: Kaylin, do you have your homework done?
05:38 Kaylin: yes, mostly
05:38 (quit) kvda: Quit:  -___-
05:38 Kaylin: all the stuff due before 2PM
05:38 Guest46248: thanx god!
05:38 eli: Kaylin: The problem is that some people actually want students to learn...
05:39 eli: Guest46248: The texts are mostly based on PLAI, which Shriram wrote.
05:39 eli: (With some new material that I poured some sweat over.)
05:39 Guest46248: I know that. but macro section is brilliant!
05:40 eli: That part is based on a bunch of texts I wrote, some from those blog posts, and some from other places.
05:41 Guest46248: what material will be in the newcoming "Realm of Racket"? Should i buy this book?
05:44 eli: It's generally similar to "lang of lisp", but more oriented towards graphic games.
05:44 Guest46248: no web in there?
05:48 eli: I don't think so, but I don't know any real details.
05:49 Guest46248: What's the point in writing another "Land of Lisp"'s clone?
05:50 eli: Teaching people how to write good programs.
05:50 eli: Teaching people how to write Racket.
05:50 eli: Teaching people some good CS.
05:50 eli: etc.
05:50 Guest46248: yeah, i see
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05:53 Guest46248: Lately I like Shen. What do you think about it? Have you looked at it? (Of course, there are't any library yet, but it's a new thing!)
05:54 (join) gciolli
05:54 Guest46248: nice notation, partial evaluation, integrated compiler-compiler, prolog, very advanced macroes, portability, etc, etc
05:54 Guest46248: lazines, pattern matching....
05:55 Guest46248: It seems to me that this Tarver men is genius? Or am I wrong?
05:55 Guest46248: :)
05:57 eli: I don't have any real opinion on it.  (It's not really new, btw, it's been around for ages under a bunch of past names, IIRC.)
05:58 Guest46248: I really like this book: http://www.shenlanguage.org/Documentation/Reference/FPQi/page000.htm
05:58 Guest46248: that's how real documentation should look like! :)))
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06:01 Guest46248: And a few days ago appeared Shen for Javascript, too: https://groups.google.com/group/qilang/browse_thread/thread/8cf846d189ae263b?hl=en#
06:01 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7fwhtjb
06:02 Guest46248: kaylin, I would like something to drink. And you? :)
06:03 Kaylin: will it put me to sleep? I'd take a bourbon.
06:03 Guest46248: I'd take a bottle of good white wine... maybe some fine Napa Valley Chardonnay??? :)
06:09 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
06:09 (names) -: gabot mceier gciolli tfb wlsn dme veer Guest46248 Blkt bluezenix noam djcb Kaylin hkBst Skola sethalves jschuster turon stamourv` cdidd rgrinberg ivan` ivan\ mithos28 Shviller asumu karswell eMBee acarrico Enoria chromaticwt0 mimcpher _p4bl0 snorble_ eli dsantiago samth_away jrslepak_ offby1 tgilray mario-goulart AlbireoX em bill_h cipher @ChanServ cky rapacity swartzcr shachaf kandinski gf3 m4burns cataska rmrfchik shaatar SeanTAllen sid0 DraX abbe
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06:23 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
06:23 (names) -: gabot tfb Kaylin1 mceier gciolli wlsn veer Guest46248 Blkt bluezenix noam djcb hkBst Skola sethalves jschuster turon stamourv` cdidd rgrinberg ivan` ivan\ Shviller asumu karswell eMBee acarrico Enoria chromaticwt0 mimcpher _p4bl0 snorble_ eli dsantiago samth_away jrslepak_ offby1 tgilray mario-goulart AlbireoX em bill_h cipher @ChanServ cky rapacity swartzcr shachaf kandinski gf3 m4burns cataska rmrfchik shaatar SeanTAllen sid0 DraX abbe PfhorSlayer kanak
06:23 (names) -: Shvillr tim-brown SHODAN bluephoenix47 bremner jamessan ozzloy chandler scyrmion jasinai mattmight Twey aidy shadgregory rudybot tewk ec hyko Diarmid dsp_ Fulax
06:23 (notice) holmes.freenode.net: [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
06:26 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
06:26 (names) -: gabot tfb Kaylin1 mceier gciolli wlsn veer Guest46248 Blkt bluezenix noam djcb hkBst Skola sethalves jschuster turon stamourv` cdidd rgrinberg ivan` ivan\ Shviller asumu karswell eMBee acarrico Enoria chromaticwt0 mimcpher _p4bl0 snorble_ eli dsantiago samth_away jrslepak_ offby1 tgilray mario-goulart AlbireoX em bill_h cipher @ChanServ cky rapacity swartzcr shachaf kandinski gf3 m4burns cataska rmrfchik shaatar SeanTAllen sid0 DraX abbe PfhorSlayer kanak
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06:45 Guest46248: Kaylin, are you drunk?
07:01 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
07:01 (names) -: gabot karswell tfb Kaylin1 mceier gciolli wlsn veer Guest46248 Blkt noam djcb hkBst Skola sethalves jschuster turon stamourv` cdidd rgrinberg ivan` ivan\ Shviller asumu eMBee acarrico Enoria chromaticwt0 mimcpher _p4bl0 snorble_ eli dsantiago samth_away jrslepak_ offby1 tgilray mario-goulart AlbireoX em bill_h cipher @ChanServ cky rapacity swartzcr shachaf kandinski gf3 m4burns cataska rmrfchik shaatar SeanTAllen sid0 DraX abbe PfhorSlayer kanak Shvillr
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07:01 (notice) leguin.freenode.net: [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
07:05 Kaylin1: no
07:05 Kaylin1: no alcohol here
07:10 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
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07:21 bremner: Guest46248: anybody who mentions Miranda but not Haskell in their intro in 2008 lives in a different world than I do.
07:23 bremner: not that that is a reason to choose a language or not, it just struck me as bizarre.
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07:25 Guest46248: he mention Miranda in a historic context
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07:27 Guest46248: This Shen has inner beauty inside, belive me!
07:27 bremner: sure, could well be.
07:30 Guest46248: Shen's creator, Mark Tarver, is very interesting guy. Check this: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/decline.htm  and this: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
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07:59 eli: hkBst: ping
08:11 bremner: eli: fyi: http://www.cs.unb.ca/~bremner/teaching/cs3613/lectures/
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08:12 bremner: these pdfs are generated by a horrible perl script, essentially from the format of your notes.
08:13 bremner: maybe horrible perl script is redundant.
08:13 eli: bremner: Very cute.
08:14 eli: But PDF is not really making it easy.
08:14 eli: I click a link to a snip, and when I go back I see the document's beginning, again with the default tiny zoom level.
08:15 eli: (This is with chrome's pdf viewer, and the though to going back to FF + acrobat horrifies me...)
08:15 eli: And in "lecture0/snippet-002.rkts" you have a double `#lang pl' line.
08:15 eli: (Seems to be a result of making it appear there by default...?)
08:16 eli: And I hope that you made some drr button that they can hit to get a snip from the site...
08:17 eli: And, of course, all of this reminds me of my never-ending dilemma about these notes: to markdown or not to markdown.
08:17 eli: Maybe even to markup.
08:17 eli: But then I lose interactivity.
08:17 eli stares at the wall.
08:17 bremner: eli: in class, I use a version with file: links, that brings up emacsclient and geiser
08:18 bremner: of course, you are already using emacs, so...
08:19 bremner: yeah, the double #lang thing is a glitch, rare enough not to fix yet.
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08:23 eli: bremner: BTW, for chrome, I found some "edit-server" thing that allows editing textareas in Emacs -- it works similarly to the usual emacs server, only listens to a protocol that can work from chrome.  (And I'm sure that there are similar hacks for other browser.)
08:23 eli: It'll probably make a more convenient setup than file:// links.
08:23 eli: (Which is -- my guess -- the reason for the ".rkts" suffix?)
08:24 eli: I tried it once, and soon gave up when I realized that it's impossible to keep this from multiple machines.
08:25 eli: In any case, Yes, I'm doing everything in Emacs, and I don't have markup since I very often just work with the text.  (As in, I work an example dynamically, more convenient than sifting through the text.)
08:25 eli: (Especially fun for deriving Y.)
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09:37 hkBst_: eli: pong
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09:38 samth: bremner: that's really impressive
09:38 samth: although the last 2 slides of lecture 0 i will think of as a bug report :)
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09:42 bremner: "make it faster" "make it smarter". I don't see any conflict there ;)
09:43 bremner: eli: yeah, it's not just for editing, I like to have extra definitions in the linked-to file, so it's ready to run standalone.
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10:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/fxnvsA
10:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/sandbox: use `gui-available?' at sandbox creation - Matthew Flatt
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11:30 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
11:30 (names) -: gabot anRch dnolen jeapostrophe karswell_ Shviller dzhus noam MayDaniel GeneralMaximus samth gridaphobe mye cdidd dous EmmanuelOga masm gciolli veer djcb sethalves jschuster turon stamourv rgrinberg ivan` ivan\ asumu eMBee acarrico Enoria chromaticwt0 mimcpher _p4bl0 snorble_ eli dsantiago jrslepak_neu offby1 tgilray mario-goulart AlbireoX em bill_h cipher @ChanServ cky rapacity swartzcr shachaf kandinski gf3 m4burns cataska rmrfchik shaatar SeanTAllen sid0
11:30 (names) -: DraX abbe PfhorSlayer kanak Shvillr tim-brown SHODAN bluephoenix47 Fulax dsp_ Diarmid hyko ec tewk rudybot shadgregory aidy Twey mattmight jasinai scyrmion chandler ozzloy jamessan bremner
11:31 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
11:31 (names) -: gabot anRch dnolen jeapostrophe karswell_ Shviller dzhus noam MayDaniel GeneralMaximus samth gridaphobe mye cdidd dous EmmanuelOga masm gciolli veer djcb sethalves jschuster turon stamourv rgrinberg ivan` ivan\ asumu eMBee acarrico Enoria chromaticwt0 mimcpher _p4bl0 snorble_ eli dsantiago jrslepak_neu offby1 tgilray mario-goulart AlbireoX em bill_h cipher @ChanServ cky rapacity swartzcr shachaf kandinski gf3 m4burns cataska rmrfchik shaatar SeanTAllen
11:31 (names) -: sid0 DraX abbe PfhorSlayer kanak Shvillr tim-brown SHODAN bluephoenix47 Fulax dsp_ Diarmid hyko ec tewk rudybot shadgregory aidy Twey mattmight jasinai scyrmion chandler bremner jamessan ozzloy
11:31 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
11:31 (names) -: gabot anRch dnolen jeapostrophe karswell_ Shviller dzhus noam MayDaniel GeneralMaximus samth gridaphobe mye cdidd dous EmmanuelOga masm gciolli veer djcb sethalves jschuster turon stamourv rgrinberg ivan` ivan\ asumu eMBee acarrico Enoria chromaticwt0 mimcpher _p4bl0 snorble_ eli dsantiago jrslepak_neu offby1 tgilray mario-goulart AlbireoX em ozzloy jamessan bremner chandler scyrmion jasinai mattmight Twey aidy shadgregory rudybot tewk ec hyko Diarmid dsp_
11:31 (names) -: Fulax bluephoenix47 SHODAN tim-brown Shvillr kanak PfhorSlayer abbe DraX sid0 SeanTAllen shaatar rmrfchik cataska m4burns gf3 kandinski shachaf swartzcr rapacity cky @ChanServ cipher bill_h
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11:39 eli: bremner: I know -- what I'm saying is that you could hook into the same mechanism to achieve the open-in-emacs via some http://localhost url, which would be more robust then dealing with suffix association, based on miserable experience of trying to do that.
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11:53 samth: jeapostrophe: ping
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12:29 bremner: eli: ah, ok. Yeah I agree opening urls from pdf viewers could be better.
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12:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/GofTYw
12:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] openssl: another attempt to get SSL_shutdown right - Matthew Flatt
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12:54 asumu: I stumbled on this neat library today: http://www.snltk.org/index.html
12:55 mithos28: people actual used r6rs?
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12:57 asumu: Seems so.
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12:58 asumu: Also, I just found out that racket/generator exists. Learn something new every day.
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13:09 dyoo: hi everyone; happy weekend
13:09 dyoo: (almost)
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14:16 Diarmid: Is there some way to make Ctrl-I use 2-space indents instead of 1?  I find seeing the 1-space indents really difficult.  Honestly I'd rather it be 4, but seems 2 is standard for Lisp.
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14:19 Diarmid: Also, the Realm of Racket book sounds interesting.  I'd buy it.  I've been trying to translate stuff from Land of Lisp, so it could be useful for people that want to use Scheme instead of Common Lisp.  I do hope it actually comes out.  The website has almost no information.
14:20 (quit) dyoo: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
14:21 eli: asumu: If you just discovered it, then: http://pl.barzilay.org/lec16.txt
14:21 eli: Look for the two examples that start with `#lang racket'.
14:22 eli: Diarmid: Yes, it will come out -- they're definitely working on that.
14:24 Diarmid: I have fond memories of the old type-in games books "Land of Lisp" and the "Python for the Absolute Beginner" books are based on.  Both languages are more useful than BASIC (pointers/references are kinda important), so it's even nicer seeing them come back in this form.
14:26 Diarmid: eli: Any idea on the indention thing?  I guess I could do it all in EMACS, but it'd be convenient if I could make DrRacket do it.
14:34 asumu: Is it a holiday today? I get a star logo in DrRacket.
14:34 asumu: eli: Thanks for the pointer. Neat relationship between channels and generators.
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14:40 samth: texas independence day
14:42 danking: Ah.
14:43 danking: I was between that and the discovery of the top quark.
14:44 samth: danking: the star is for texas
14:45 eli: Diarmid: You mean the indentation for bodies?  That should be two spaces.
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14:48 Diarmid: I see now.  It seems to only do the one space indention within lists inside the body.  Maybe that's proper Lisp indention.  I thought it was always 2 spaces.
14:54 eli: Diarmid: Yeah, with a list or any function call, a newline right after the function should indent the following line to be right under the function name.
14:54 eli: (eg, try "(  list<newline>")
14:56 Diarmid: eli: Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I'm used to much larger amounts of indentation, and seeing this sort of thing is sort of hard, especially if the procedures are long.
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14:57 eli: Diarmid: well, usually you put the newline there only if you're stressed in space, otherwise you put it after the first argument, and the next line will indent under it.
14:57 Diarmid: Is there a reason it doesn't default to 'after the first argument'?
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14:59 Diarmid: eli: Never mind, I misread, and understand now.
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15:35 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
15:35 (names) -: gabot karswell_ realitygrill tfb danking MayDaniel noam LeNsTR jonrafkind mithos28 mceier Skola dnolen jeapostrophe Shviller dzhus samth mye dous EmmanuelOga masm gciolli sethalves jschuster turon stamourv rgrinberg ivan` ivan\ asumu eMBee acarrico Enoria chromaticwt0 mimcpher _p4bl0 snorble_ eli dsantiago jrslepak_neu offby1 tgilray mario-goulart AlbireoX em bill_h cipher @ChanServ cky rapacity swartzcr shachaf kandinski gf3 m4burns cataska rmrfchik shaatar
15:35 (names) -: SeanTAllen sid0 DraX abbe PfhorSlayer kanak Shvillr SHODAN bluephoenix47 bremner jamessan ozzloy chandler scyrmion jasinai mattmight Twey aidy shadgregory rudybot tewk ec hyko Diarmid dsp_ Fulax
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17:36 offby1: bah.  ec2 instance fell over; no more rudybot
17:37 samth: offby1: oh no
17:38 offby1 dons black crepe
17:39 stamourv: offby1: Is it temporary?
17:39 jonrafkind: why would ec2 go down
17:40 offby1: stamourv: no idea
17:40 stamourv: Oh, you're talking about ec2 downtime? I thought it was something worse.
17:40 offby1: jonrafkind: poor upbringing
17:41 jonrafkind: i know exactly how that is
17:41 jonrafkind: unless that was a crude joke in which case I have no recollection of agreeing to it
17:42 offby1 whistles innocently
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17:50 offby1: man, if the existing ec2 instance would ever finish "stopping", I'd create a new one and use the old one's disk
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18:04 jeapostrophe: samth: just saw your ping right before i'm about to leave, but i could chat for a sec
18:05 samth: jeapostrophe: it all worked out for
18:05 samth: jeapostrophe: continuation-based web servers are awesome!
18:05 samth: :)
18:05 jeapostrophe: :) sorry for the delay, i'm glad it's good
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18:15 track0x1: hey Kaylin
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18:18 Kaylin: hi
18:26 track0x1: Kaylin: any idea how i would loop through a list of varying sizes to compare them? IE i have test case one: '(a b c) '(b c d e).. and case  two: '(a b c d) '(b c)
18:28 Kaylin: what like see if they contain the same elements?
18:28 track0x1: yes
18:33 Kaylin: I'd probably check if all the elements of list1 were in list2 and all the elements of list2 were in list1, recursively.  you could compare size to ignore the second part if you liked.  there's probably a built in function anyway but you could take the car of the first list, if it's null start comparing the second to the first list, otherwise if it's a list, repeat, if it's an atom compare it to every element in the list, #t if it's the same
18:36 track0x1: Kaylin: wow that is tough to process, lol
18:36 Kaylin: yea I'm not the best at explaining
18:37 Kaylin: basically two lists contain the same elements if every element in list 1 is in list 2, and every element in list 2 is in list 1.
18:37 track0x1: because see i am running into the issue where if i take the car and the list becomes null and have remaining items it's going to run out of things to compare
18:37 Kaylin: so for each element in list 1, see if it's in list 2
18:37 track0x1: AHH! duhh thats so easy now
18:38 Kaylin: and then for each element in list 2, see if it's in list 1
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18:38 Kaylin: if you end up with a null list for the second argument during recursion, your element isn't in that list
18:38 track0x1: (else (and (member? (car xs) ys) (all-member? (cdr xs) ys)))))
18:38 Kaylin: if you end up with a null list for the first argument, you've checked allthe elements in that list
18:38 track0x1: works :)
18:38 track0x1: Kaylin: thanks
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18:39 Kaylin: I'm again, as always, not sure how I was helpful but you're welcome
18:39 track0x1: haha it helped me out!
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18:41 Kaylin1: I should really just
18:41 Kaylin1: get a new battery for my laptop
18:41 Kaylin1: but, in all honesty I suspect it's the system board
18:41 track0x1: Kaylin: having issues with it?
18:41 Kaylin1: and being an 8 year old laptop I should really just get a new laptop
18:41 Kaylin1: it hasn't functioned for years
18:42 Kaylin1: not an issue on a desk but if I move around while like sitting on a couch and accidentally unplug it
18:42 Kaylin1: well, that happens
18:42 track0x1: gotcha yeah thats gotta be a pain
18:43 Kaylin1: yea, usually I just connect to my desktop so
18:43 (quit) Kaylin: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
18:43 Kaylin1: even if I accidentally unplug my laptop
18:43 Kaylin1: my system is still running
18:43 Kaylin1: but not today
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18:46 (nick) Kaylin -> nilyaK
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18:47 nilyaK: figured it needed grouping, it was too cool a nick to pass up
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18:56 track0x1: anyone know how to prove a racket function by induction?
18:56 jonrafkind: prove the cases
18:57 jonrafkind: base case and the other cases
18:57 jonrafkind: if you want to do it formally you should probably use a tool like Coq
18:57 Kaylin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_induction might be a good place to start
18:57 track0x1: so i have a function (all-member? xs xs)
18:58 track0x1: and i need to prove that it is true by induction
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19:03 track0x1: im just a bit confused on how i can do this by adding one to a list of xs
19:03 track0x1: i cant necessairly do xs+1
19:03 Kaylin: can you prove it for a set that contains only an atom?
19:03 jonrafkind: at least a molecule
19:04 Kaylin: for example, the law of identity states that a ≡ a for all a.
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19:04 track0x1: ok... yes
19:08 Kaylin: so I suppose think of this as a set of pairs a = a for all a in xs
19:09 Kaylin: in fact your lists don't just contain the same elements, they're in the same order
19:09 Kaylin: so you could do for each element in list1 and list2
19:09 Kaylin: a ≡ a
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19:09 Kaylin: I guess, is that what you're asking?
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19:14 track0x1: sorta kinda
19:15 Kaylin: perhaps you could show that a intersect a is the empty set
19:15 Kaylin: but that's not
19:15 Kaylin: well it could be what you want to do =/
19:16 track0x1: lmao
19:16 Kaylin: err
19:16 Kaylin: you know what I mean
19:16 Kaylin: a inteersect a'
19:17 Kaylin: but yea
19:17 Diarmid: I'm curious about the "Realm of Racket" book.  How will it be sold (Amazon.com?).  Is there a ballpark figure for the price?  Is it still planned to be out this summer?
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19:23 Kaylin: how about this, show that an atom is the same as itself
19:23 asumu: Diarmid: The Twitter page says summer as of about a week ago.
19:23 Kaylin: show that if a set is equal to itself then the set cons an atom is equal to the set cons an atom
19:23 asumu: I'm not sure the publisher has been announced.
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19:25 dyoo: track0x1: you may want to look at: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/cce/acl2/
19:25 track0x1: dyoo: i am not sure what dracula will do for me?
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19:26 Kaylin: sorry I'm not super good at these things :(
19:26 dyoo: track0x1: from what I've heard, it's a theorem prover system that's meant to help prove properties of functions
19:27 track0x1: dyoo: whoa, i didn't read that anywhere in the descriptrion but ill try it out.
19:27 dyoo: track0x1: one of the links in there points to: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/cce/acl2/examples.html
19:28 dyoo: which sounds very much in the vein of your question about proof
19:28 track0x1 takes a look
19:28 dyoo: I have to admit that I haven't dived into it too deeply, but I'm sure someone from neu can give personal testimonials on it
19:29 track0x1: awesome
19:30 dyoo: good luck!
19:30 (quit) dyoo: Quit: Page closed
19:31 track0x1: dyoo: thanks
19:31 (quit) duomo: Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com
19:31 Diarmid: asumu: I suppose if I prod people about it here, if nothing else, they can tell me where to pick it up, if the web page doesn't have more info by then?
19:31 Diarmid: asumu: I'm also assuming some of the proceeds will go to help fund Racket development?
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19:47 asumu: Diarmid: No idea, but I'm sure people here will be talking about it once it's published.
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22:38 asumu: Diarmid: BTW, is your nick from Irish mythology?
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