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00:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/bFliVQ
00:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add #:opaque keyword to class/c. - Asumu Takikawa
00:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Opaque class/c should treat field opaquely too. - Asumu Takikawa
00:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Added tests for opaque class/c contracts. - Asumu Takikawa
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00:31 mithos28: What is the easiest way to reuse forms matching a splicing syntax class in the template for syntax/parse?
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00:31 mithos28: I have an example here: https://gist.github.com/1777599
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00:32 mithos28: But it adds an extra list layer around the forms because there might be multiple ones
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01:01 mithos28: anyone around with good macro-fu? I'm trying to write a curried macro and cannot see a way of doing it.
01:03 veer: mithos28: from your gist  (baz) produces (bar + ())
01:03 mithos28: veer: yeah, I was trying to splice it back in
01:03 veer: which is not same as (bar +) I think
01:04 mithos28: that is the problem, I cannot use a syntax class to check that the input matches what i want, and then pass it along to get processed
01:04 veer: You can use attributes
01:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 7 new commits to master: http://git.io/o5ADuA
01:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] db: clean up and reogranize common impl code - Ryan Culpepper
01:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] db: finalize close-on-exec psts within lock - Ryan Culpepper
01:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] db: added cursors - Ryan Culpepper
01:05 veer: wait let me try
01:05 mithos28: here is my solution: https://gist.github.com/1777744
01:05 mithos28: it is ugly
01:06 mithos28: which is why I want something nicer
01:09 veer: mithos28: see your first gist I have added comment
01:10 veer: oh
01:10 mithos28: but I have to do something for every case, where I just want to be able to splice in all the forms that matched that pattern variable
01:10 veer: right
01:10 veer: let me check again
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01:30 veer: well I don't know , may be you need to provide another syntax class for whole baz pattern may be? :)
01:31 mithos28: my solution is working, it just feels ugly
01:31 veer: there is nothing ugly in macros :)
01:31 veer: they all are
01:31 veer: ugly
01:32 mithos28: or pretty in their own unique way
01:34 veer: btw what was the context or the actual problem
01:35 mithos28: the second gist shows it mostly
01:35 mithos28: I was trying to add a provide subform to one of my macros
01:35 mithos28: so that I could provide out the bindings it created
01:36 mithos28: I have a wrapper macro that takes in many identifiers and creates many calls to the first macro
01:37 mithos28: Thus I wanted to have the many argument one do a check on the syntax of the provide subform, and then pass it on to the main macro
01:38 mithos28: now I need to figure out how to combine contracts and ctypes
01:39 veer: cool :)
01:39 veer: there is also define-provide-syntax in racket , just in case ..
01:40 mithos28: that is doing something different
01:41 mithos28: I have a macro (define-my-thing (foobar) c-type)
01:41 mithos28: and now I have (define-my-thing (foobar) #:provide c-type)
01:41 mithos28: and (define-my-thing (foobar) #:provide/contract contract c-type)
01:44 veer: I see , my mistake :)
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05:37 veer: is there an example for how to use prop:set!-transformer , I can't seem to get it
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05:46 Mordae: Hi everybody.
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05:47 Mordae: I have this little confusing behavior of send/suspend and I'd like to ask if anyone knows about it.
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05:51 Mordae: When I (send/suspend), I get a nice URL, that should be /current/url;(kont), but I get /some/url/ive/visited/recently;(kont), which breaks things.
05:52 Mordae: Any ideas why this happens? I am using stateless web servlets and dispach-rules.
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06:18 tim-brown: morning all.
06:19 tim-brown: is there an "accepted" way of declaring a time_t in racket's FFI?
06:19 tim-brown: as in how to wrap "char *ctime(const time_t *timep);"
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06:48 veer: @tim-brown just out of curiosity why not (_fun _pointer -> _string)
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07:01 tim-brown: veer: it's more what is the pointer a pointer to...
07:03 veer: tim-brown : ok , are you asking that it should check if pointer is of type time_t right?
07:06 veer: if that is so then you can create tagged pointer (define time_t (_cpointer 'time_t))
07:07 veer: and use it in all function that need it
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07:11 tim-brown: er... i can't find anything that takes a raw time_t (as opposed to a pointer to time_t)
07:12 tim-brown: it's the actual type of time_t I'm concerned about (bad example, using ctime)
07:12 tim-brown: i have some time functions that need wrapping
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07:15 veer: ok ,right I get it.
07:17 veer: wikipedia says  time_t is unspecified  type , how cool is that :)
07:29 tim-brown: yeah... wondered if there was something internal to racket that i could _somehow_ get a handle on
07:29 tim-brown: otherwise, I'll call it a _long and wait for the earth-shattering kaboom
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08:43 darkjh: Hello, I'm trying to do some gui programming using racket. But when I enter  (define frame (new frame% [label "Example"])), just following the guide, it keeps telling me "frame%" is not defined.
08:44 darkjh: reference to undefined identifier: frame%  is all I got
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10:25 asumu: Popularity rank for Racket: http://skitch.com/sogrady/g97x7/dataists-020711 (about the middle of the chart)
10:29 samth: yeah, i saw that
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10:30 samth: some of those languages are winning in a silly way, like VimL
10:32 asumu: I also wonder if some of those Scheme projects might be PLT Scheme projects.
10:33 samth: asumu: i think many are
10:33 samth: and many "scheme" questions on SO are racket questions
10:34 asumu: Delphi is surprisingly alive on that chart though.
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10:57 swartzcr: how do I set a pointer to null, like if I want to drop the last part of a list (set! (cdr a) null)
10:58 samth: swartzcr: i hate to say this, but probably the right answer is to thing about the problem differently
10:59 samth: *think
10:59 samth: but if you want to mutate a list, see the `racket/mlist' library
10:59 samth: rudybot: doc set-mcdr!
10:59 rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
10:59 rudybot: samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/mpairs.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._set-mcdr!))
11:00 swartzcr: oh, so it'd be better to construct a new list by iterating through the first and just stop appending when I get to the point I want to cut it at?
11:00 swartzcr: that seems do-able
11:01 samth: swartzcr: right
11:01 samth: see the `take' function, for example
11:01 samth: rudybot: doc take
11:01 rudybot: samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/pairs.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Flist..rkt)._take))
11:01 samth: also, take-while
11:01 samth: rudybot: doc take-while
11:01 rudybot: samth: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: srfi/1
11:01 swartzcr: thanks!
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11:29 Sicp: racket bug 12553 anyone?
11:29 Sicp: about being unable to access Preferences, not through Edit > preferences nor through Ctrl + ;
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11:42 bremner: what platform?
11:44 Sicp: im on Arch
11:44 Sicp: running DrRacket 5.2.1
11:45 asumu: Sicp: I think samth replied to your bug report, did you see that?
11:45 bremner: hmm. either works ok on debian with 5.2
11:45 Sicp: yes of course
11:45 Sicp: that's why I am here again
11:45 Sicp: to see if he's here
11:46 Sicp: but I didn't call his name maybe he doesn't want it out there ..
11:46 asumu: Sicp: he is currently teaching a course so it is unlikely he will respond quickly
11:46 Sicp: ok
11:57 jaimef hunts for a simple file open/parse contents example
11:57 swartzcr: what is a textbook doing in this channel?
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12:00 Sicp: yea, real smart, swartzcr
12:01 swartzcr: you can't shame me out of my bad joke ways
12:02 Sicp: I would've made the same joke if you had this nickname
12:02 Sicp: :J
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12:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/4PaK0g
12:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Pretty up places test code - Kevin Tew
12:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix multiple places imported into the same module - Kevin Tew
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12:42 jonrafkind: eli, ping
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13:09 mjhoy: I have a beginner's question about racket, about logging and servlets. Is anyone available to help me? Or is there a better place to ask...
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13:11 asumu: mjhoy: this is a good place to ask, but unfortunately I don't know anything about servlets. If you wait around someone might answer.
13:11 asumu: You can also ask on the mailing list or StackOverflow (mailing list is probably better).
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13:12 mjhoy: asumu: OK, thanks! Also, if you know of a good place to get information about logging in racket (besides the documentation for make-logger etc) that might be helpful.
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13:30 jonrafkind: hm I'm getting an extra set of parentheses in the output of my template variables, how is that possible
13:30 jonrafkind: #'(z ...) expands to ((x) (y) (z)) instead of (x y z)
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13:58 jonrafkind: ah itsbecause I have an extra level of indirection in my syntax-class
13:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/4-uhAw
13:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Lib path typo. - Eli Barzilay
13:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Disable Win/i386-crashing test.  (See comment for the reason.) - Eli Barzilay
13:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Two typos. - Rodolfo Henrique Carvalho
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14:08 eli: jonrafkind: ?
14:08 eli: noelw: ping
14:08 jonrafkind: eli, sukyoung needs grader.rkt
14:08 jonrafkind: but its in your git pl-grading directory
14:08 jonrafkind: which neither me nor she has access to
14:08 eli: I'll reply to her.
14:09 eli: I saw her email.
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14:09 eli: CCs would reduce these confusions.
14:09 jonrafkind: what confusions
14:09 jonrafkind: she asks me because you don't respond
14:10 eli: You asking me every time she asks me...
14:11 jonrafkind: there is a presumption that I get better service than her
14:11 eli: Yeah, I know.
14:13 ale`: hi,I'm playing with racket since yesterday (I'm no expert at all, just started learning some scheme/racket). Is there a way to retrieve a procedure's lambda list (possibly using non-portable racket-only code)?
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14:27 ale`: /j #geiser
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14:49 asumu: ale`: What exactly do you mean by that? You want to extract the argument names?
14:49 asumu: (I don't think you can do that. You can extract keyword arguments or the arity of a procedure though)
14:50 ale`: asumu: yep, I want the argument names
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14:51 ale`: asumu: it would be nice to have emacs display (substring seq start (end)) in the minibuffer help instead of (substring _ _ (_))
14:53 ale`: I don't know if I understood well what geiser is doing, it can retrieve some parameter names, but not others. Is it parsing the sources? @.@
14:56 jonrafkind: how do you match a literal ellipses in syntax/parse?
14:57 jonrafkind: oh nevermind, i found my old email about it
14:57 asumu: jonrafkind: Does (~literal ...) work?
14:57 jonrafkind: Im gonna use #:literals ([ellipses ...])
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15:35 samth: Sicp: btw, when your reply to the bug report message, please try to maintain the cc list so that the information goes in the bug database
15:37 Sicp: ok
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16:04 tonyg: (do) loops rule
16:04 tonyg: ;-)
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16:10 samth: tonyg: no, that's false :)
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16:10 tonyg: samth: i use them as folds over multiple accumulators
16:10 tonyg: but it is also true that "(do) loops suck"
16:10 samth: tonyg: does `for/fold' not work?
16:11 tonyg: yes, but I don't like multiple-values generally
16:11 tonyg: perhaps it's better to use for/fold though
16:11 tonyg: i'll try it and see
16:12 tonyg: in this case, i have multiple-values anyway, so nothing to lose
16:13 tonyg: actually for/fold will improve my code
16:13 tonyg: :)
16:13 tonyg: I'll avoid an (append (set->list set1) (set->list set2) ...) by using in-sequence
16:13 samth: do probably requires mutation instead of multiple values
16:13 tonyg: samth: no, it's pure-functional
16:14 tonyg: all done with letrec, after all
16:14 jaimef: anyone have an example of opening and parsing the contents of a file?
16:14 samth: jaimef: parsing in what sense?
16:15 samth: tonyg: the docs for `do' say that the body is evaluated only for effect
16:15 jaimef: convert to a list of words that I can cdr/car on
16:15 tonyg: samth: I'm not using the body (I seldom do)
16:15 tonyg: samth: instead, I have three things in the binding list of the do: one for the structure I'm walking, and two for the accumulators
16:15 tonyg: for/fold is better for this case
16:16 jaimef: really something as simple as the equivalent of 'foo = JSON.parse(File.open("/tmp/foo.json") { |f| f.read })'
16:16 jaimef: but I guess getting the contents into a list of lists would be ideal
16:16 samth: jaimef: probably (file->value "/tmp/foo.sexp") is what you want
16:17 jaimef: k thanks
16:17 samth: or maybe `file->list' depending on whether there are multiple s-exps in the file
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17:38 flying_rhino: are there examples of different loop constructs in action? I kinda have difficulty figuring out how DO works
17:38 jonrafkind: I don't really like the new logo.. oh well
17:38 samth: flying_rhino: i think do is basically never useful
17:38 samth: jonrafkind: what don't you like?
17:38 stamourv: flying_rhino: Use `for/*' instead.
17:38 jonrafkind: looks goofy, like its for kids
17:38 samth: jonrafkind: that's kind of my feeling as well
17:39 jonrafkind: i liked the povray rendered lambda thing
17:40 flying_rhino: I use recursion, but I would like to see if racket supports more classic loops and stuff
17:40 flying_rhino: something like for in C/C++ would be nice
17:40 samth: flying_rhino: see the `for' and `for/list' loops
17:40 samth: flying_rhino: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/guide/for.html
17:40 flying_rhino: I tried but for some reason (maybe I am dense) I can't figure out how they work. Maybe more examples or something?
17:41 samth: rudybot: eval (for/list ([i (list 1 2 3)]) (add1 i))
17:41 rudybot: samth: ; Value: (2 3 4)
17:41 jonrafkind: flying_rhino, what is your thought process when you see the examples on that page?
17:42 jonrafkind: im sympathetic to alternative understandings of things in general, but that page seems pretty obvious to me
17:43 flying_rhino: now it does seem kinda obvious... I guess I was too locked into C/Java/PHP thinking so everything I saw was bunch of parentheses
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17:43 flying_rhino: anyway thanks for your time
17:44 samth: flying_rhino: np
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17:54 flying_rhino: Also I find the way racket deals with structs a little odd. It seems that compiler automatically generates bunch of 'helper' functions (or whatever it is called). For example, if strutct is mutable it creates bunch of 'set-mystruct-field!' How do I know what functions are created?
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17:56 samth: flying_rhino: they're documented here
17:56 samth: rudybot: doc struct
17:56 rudybot: samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/define-struct.html#(form._((lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt)._struct))
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18:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/NiZoyQ
18:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] improve types for literal hash tables - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
18:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Relax type of `filter'. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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18:06 flying_rhino: okay.... now real question. I have created mutable dubly linked list for racket. It is not much to look at to be honest, just node struct that holds data and prev/next references, and container stuct that keeps track of current node, first node and last node. I have created bunch of functions for creating list, adding nodes and stuff. It seems to work fine. However I don't actually know almost
18:06 flying_rhino: anything about how racket OOP inheritance (or interface) model works and I would like to be able to use my dubly linked list like a normal list (for iteration and stuff). How am I supposed to 'implement' (or whateve equivalend term here) racket list's methods?
18:07 flying_rhino: TL;DR I have I have created doubly linked list, how to make it behave like normal list?
18:07 samth: flying_rhino: if you mean "have your list work with the built-in `map' function", then that's not possible
18:08 flying_rhino: bummer
18:08 samth: probably the best thing to do is to implement the sequence protocol, so that your doubly-linked lists can be used with `for' and such
18:08 samth: a good example of a comprehensively-implemented data structure is https://github.com/dvanhorn/ralist
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18:18 samth: mithos28: apropos your question about syntax-parse from last night, you should look at `~optional'
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18:19 flying_rhino: samth: thanks for help, but this is kind of ... disheartening. Part of the reason why I dived into this whole lisp/clojure/scheme/racket thing was the promise of great metaprograming facilities and ability to mold language the way I want. And to be sure there is stuff I really love about lisp. Macros are great. I also prefer 'code as data' thing over 'XML everywhere' of Java and the like.
18:19 flying_rhino: However there seem to be bolts and duck tape  the whole thing looks a little ... strange. I Still generally like what I see, but it is discouraging how many little flaws and inconsistancies there are.
18:20 samth: flying_rhino: i don't see how these are related
18:20 samth: `map' is a function on lists, whereas sequences are an extensible abstraction
18:20 samth: there's `sequence-map' as well
18:21 samth: it's somewhat unfortunate at this point that `map' has the good name, but that's about it
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18:23 dyoo: hi everyone, good evening!
18:23 flying_rhino: samth: well it is also inability to use my doubly linked list in functions that use 'map', right?
18:24 flying_rhino: dyoo: good evening
18:24 dyoo: flying_rhino: hi!  I feel like I'm in the middle of a conversation.  :)   But the general sequence functions will work.  Have you seen sequences?
18:24 samth: flying_rhino: it wouldn't be right to use them there -- your lists are mutable, for example
18:25 flying_rhino: samth:to be honest.. no. Sorry for my general noobness
18:25 dyoo: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/sequences.html
18:25 samth: flying_rhino: if they're not mutable, how do they work?
18:26 flying_rhino: samth: Yes my lists are mutable. I am saying that I haven't looked into sequences
18:26 dyoo: flying_rhino: ah, then definitely look at that. I think that's what you're asking: a generic way to walk through things.  That's what sequences are for.
18:27 flying_rhino: yeah that's sort of what I need
18:27 dyoo: Here's a quick and dirty sequence, using the generators in Racket:
18:27 chandler: samth: I think this is an example of legacy cruft. If you were designing Racket from first principles, would you maintain the centrality of singly linked lists?
18:27 dyoo: (require racket/sequence) (define myseq (in-generator (yield "hello") (yield "world")))
18:27 samth: chandler: no
18:28 samth: definitely no
18:28 dyoo: Then `myseq` is something you can feed into anything that eats a sequence, like for loops
18:29 dyoo: oops: you might need `(require racket/generator) as well to make that work.
18:31 flying_rhino: dyoo: Just to emphasize one thing: I use typed racket.
18:32 dyoo: flying_rhino: ... oh.  :)   I'm not exactly sure what the support is for TR and generators.  Let me try it...
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18:34 flying_rhino: thanks for helping me, by the way
18:36 dyoo: flying_rhino: darn.  Ok, so I don't think generators are going to work easily in TR, and I am hitting some issues trying to use the sequence libraries in TR.
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18:42 tauntaun: samth: can you point to a doc page on the sequence protocol?  I can't seem to find it.
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18:43 dyoo: flying_rhino: what I think I can do is write a function that takes a data structure in untyped code, and then export that out to Typed Racket via require/typed
18:44 flying_rhino: basically I use typed because I want high performace doubly linked list
18:44 flying_rhino: if you have other ideas, I am opened to them
18:46 dyoo: tauntaun: see http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/sequences.html
18:47 tauntaun: dyoo: there's no mention of protocols on that page.
18:47 tauntaun: Anyway, I now think 'structure type property' was intended.
18:48 tauntaun: I thought samth meant 'protocol' in the sense of Clojure.
18:48 dyoo: tauntaun, yeah.  Most of the protocols are implemented via structure properties
18:48 dyoo: the other big one I see often is prop:procedure, which makes structures callable like functions
18:48 tauntaun: dyoo: yes, I've used that prop:proc before.
18:49 dyoo: flying_rhino: sorry, I'm pretty much a consumer of TR, so when I get stuck, I start looking for Sam frantically... :)
18:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/rvve2Q
18:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] doc correction - Matthew Flatt
18:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] win32: accept Unicode error-message strings from the system - Matthew Flatt
18:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix reported arity of `map' et al. - Matthew Flatt
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18:52 flying_rhino: samth: So how does a dude implement sequences in typed racket?
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18:58 samth: flying_rhino: sadly, you can't yet
18:58 flying_rhino: samth: :(
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19:00 flying_rhino: and that's why racket looks kinda unfinished to me. It is pretty good but there is just something lacking. Which is a damn shame
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19:02 flying_rhino: don't get me wrong, I genuinely respect what you guys did here
19:11 flying_rhino: I thought typed racket can do everything untyped version can, only faster. What other problems there are?
19:12 chandler: flying_rhino: Not to put words in samth's mouth (or hands, as the case may be), but I don't think Typed Racket has ever been claimed to be "finished".
19:13 chandler: Racket itself doesn't seem unfinished to me; on the contrary, it's very polished, and just keeps getting better.
19:14 flying_rhino: chandler: what I am trying to do is create several (relatively) fast data structures I can use. Therefore I choose typed racket. If untyped racket can do that, that's great ;)
19:15 flying_rhino: othervise, I can't do what I want to do.
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19:19 samth: chandler is 100% right about typed racket
19:19 samth: it's certainly not finished, either in the sense of being able to do everything in racket, or in the sense of me being done with it
19:20 DanBurton: TR is certainly on the right track :)
19:20 samth: DanBurton: glad you like it
19:20 flying_rhino: samth: You are one of racket creators? It is an honor
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19:20 samth: samth: i'm the creator of Typed Racket
19:21 flying_rhino: samth: Is there a way to optimize noramal racket? Type hinting or anything?
19:21 flying_rhino: *normal
19:21 flying_rhino: to make it perform as fast as typed
19:22 samth: flying_rhino: you can optimize lots of things by using the unsafe operations (from racket/unsafe/ops)
19:22 samth: rudybot: doc unsafe-struct-ref
19:22 rudybot: samth: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: racket/unsafe/ops
19:22 samth: rudybot: (require racket/unsafe/ops)
19:22 rudybot: samth: Done.
19:22 samth: rudybot: doc unsafe-struct-ref
19:22 rudybot: samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/unsafe.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Funsafe%2Fops..rkt)._unsafe-struct-ref))
19:24 flying_rhino: samth:I never really understood all this need for multiple languages. Why not just implement optional typing in main racket and be done with it?
19:25 samth: flying_rhino: i don't understand what the difference would be
19:25 samth: or rather, what do you think the difference would be
19:26 flying_rhino: for one, it would be possible to define untyped variables, without having to set them for 'any'
19:27 samth: flying_rhino: there are a number of reasons why we think that putting the boundary between typed and untyped code at the module boundary is the right choice
19:27 flying_rhino: but you are right, that doesn't matter much
19:27 samth: first, it improves performance predicatbility
19:27 samth: second, code is easier to reason about when you know that say, a whole function, is typed
19:28 samth: third, it fits into the racket language architecture, which supports a wide variety of interoperating languages
19:28 samth: we wrote a paper about this, here: http://bit.ly/langlib
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19:31 flying_rhino: okay... thanks
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20:17 JohnnyL: are there any captchas written in racket?
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21:05 JdpB42: racket web developmet, is there any way to use templates instead of the s expression language its using for html generation?
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21:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/uQk-OA
21:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix problems with marks and module for-syntax - Matthew Flatt
21:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] errortrace: skip annotation in namespace with wrong base phase - Matthew Flatt
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23:45 veer: What I wish and  some initial thought about online class : https://gist.github.com/1786630  , no flames please :)
23:50 mithos28: Anyone know why I would be getting unreadable symbols here? https://gist.github.com/1786710
23:59 asumu: veer: That would be nice, but it's a lot of work. BTW, this would probably get more discussion on the mailing list.
23:59 asumu: veer: Also, as an aside, did you know that there is an unstable/generics library? I just found out about this recently too.