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03:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/4AY19g
03:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Center the release text on the page. - Eli Barzilay
03:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix typo and minor improvement. - Eli Barzilay
03:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] There is no "gc2/xform-collects" in the gracket build tree. - Eli Barzilay
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04:25 (part) Mordae
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07:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/gg5tug
07:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix format of some error messages - Matthew Flatt
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09:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/dmXszA
09:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix pattern match on error message that was modified in 8cf49dfdb14 - Matthew Flatt
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10:12 Blkt: good day everyone
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13:21 offby1: rudybot: (banner)
13:21 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to Racket v5.2.1.\n"
13:21 offby1: \o/
13:25 offby1: Isn't there a way to have a new racket thread run at "lower priority" than existing threads?
13:25 offby1: can't figure out the term to search for in the docs
13:27 chandler: rudybot: doc make-thread-group
13:27 rudybot: chandler: your sandbox is ready
13:27 rudybot: chandler: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/threadgroups.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._make-thread-group))
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13:33 offby1: aaahhhh
13:33 offby1: chandler: thanks.  Did you just remember that, or did you actually search for it?
13:33 chandler: I remembered where to look.
13:35 offby1: I may stick a reference to that section into the section on "threads".
13:35 chandler: It isn't terribly obvious; I'd expect them to be mentioned in the section of the evaluation model chapter that talks about threads.
13:35 offby1: let's see how scribulous I am
13:35 offby1: ya think
13:36 chandler: They *are* mentioned - somewhat obliquely - in the Threads section of the reference, but only so far as to mention that they exist.
13:39 offby1: actually, for what I want, they may not be the simplest thing.  I have just two threads, and want one to run at "lower priority" (i.e., don't hog the CPU too much).  Since that thread is just a big loop, it's probably simpler to just stick a "sleep" in the loop
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15:42 em: is this a sensible thing to do: Say I want to keep some data on a set of clients. Say there are three different things I want to measure about each client. How about having a directory for each client and a text file for each of those three quantities, and then have racket access /clientname/quantityA.txt to read and write to that file each time I update or load it.
15:42 em: Is that how you store data in racket?
15:47 chandler: There's no one way to store and access data in Racket. The question should be what the *right* way to store this data is; from there you can find out if Racket supports that easily or not.
15:48 chandler: We use SQLite via the db module in our application, for instance.
15:49 em: hm.
15:49 em: Then you have to learn SQLite which would be good but not as fast.
15:49 em: I can probably do it all with flat files
15:49 em: do you think it's better to write the data to the flatfiles as lists?
15:49 chandler: Well, there's a learning curve if you don't know SQL. If you do, the db module is very nice.
15:50 em: yeah that's cool
15:51 chandler: Regular s-expressions are a decent choice for a file format. You could also use XML if you were so inclined.
15:56 bremner: is there some more idiomatic shorthand for (format "~a" expr) ?
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16:05 didi: Suppose I have a collection called `myutils'. I want to be able to `(require myutils)' from all my projects. What is the appropriate way to do it? I've discovered PLTCOLLECTS but I wonder if there are ways other than exporting an environment variable.
16:05 jonrafkind: raco link myutils
16:06 didi: jonrafkind: I saw `raco link'. When was it introduce?
16:06 jonrafkind: just be in the same directory that the myutils directory exists and run that command
16:06 jonrafkind: hm, maybe 2 versions ago
16:06 didi: Hum. I'm running racket v5.1.3. I think I don't have it. :^(
16:07 jonrafkind: what does 'raco link' do
16:07 jonrafkind: 'unrecognized command' ?
16:07 didi: jonrafkind: `/usr/bin/raco: Unrecognized command: link'
16:08 jonrafkind: hm, ok so I guess you have to use PLTCOLLECTS for now
16:08 jonrafkind: i mean the other way is to put your collection into the racket collects/ directory
16:08 jonrafkind: you could even just symlink it
16:08 didi: jonrafkind: I see. Well, I rather use PLTCOLLECTS until my distribution upgrades. Thank you!
16:09 jonrafkind: ok
16:09 chandler: Which distribution?
16:09 didi: chandler: Debian Testing.
16:10 chandler: Ah. You could probably get the sid package if you wanted via APT pinning, or recompile it yourself, but it's probably not worth it.
16:11 bremner: the sid package works fine in testing
16:11 bremner: (of 5.20
16:11 bremner: err, 5.2
16:12 didi: Nice. I'll take a look at sid's package then.
16:13 bremner: the only thing keeping it out of testing is problems on "niche" architectures
16:14 chandler: didi: See http://wiki.debian.org/AptPreferences if you haven't used pinning before. Basically, pinning lets you install racket from sid via apt-get without upgrading your whole system.
16:15 didi: chandler: Great, thank you. I've never heard of it before.
16:18 chandler: bremner: what "niche" architecture is causing problems?
16:20 jamessan: chandler: powerpc (only with 64-bit hardware), s390(x), and mips
16:20 chandler: Ah. I'm fresh out of 64-bit PowerPC, alas.
16:21 jamessan: there's a potential fix Matthew Flatt suggested for mips, which seems to work.  I should probably followup with him on that
16:23 jamessan: ia64 is a problem, too, but that seems like it'd be much more work than it's worth to fix, especially as ia64 is being EOLed soon, iirc
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16:29 bremner: s390 is probably ignorable also...
16:30 jamessan: probably, but I was hoping that'd be a potentially simpler fix :)
16:31 (nick) LeNsTR -> LeNsTR|off
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16:41 jamessan: bremner: are you going to have some time to update racket soon?
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16:52 chemuduguntar: is anyone using racket on arm?
16:52 chemuduguntar: i am unable to require packages from planet (racket v5.0.2) (Killed :( )
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17:01 eli: stamourv: ping
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17:09 flying_rhino: hello folks
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17:54 flying_rhino: hi jao
17:54 jao: heya flying_rhino
17:55 flying_rhino: I have a question (in case you know racket well)
17:55 jao: i'm sure if not me others here will know :)
17:56 flying_rhino: about accessing structure members
17:56 flying_rhino: and mutating mutable structure members
17:56 chandler: Just ask the question, and if somebody knows and is around they will answer.
17:58 flying_rhino: okay fist: Is there alternative way for accessing values witin structure. The one I use is (my-structure-item instance) for my-structure
17:58 flying_rhino: this is for typed racket
17:58 offby1: that's certainly the standard way
17:59 offby1: you might be able to convert the struct to a vector, and then do vector-ref, but I don't see the point
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18:00 flying_rhino: what if you have structure within structure? I use (my-structure-structure1-item (my-structure-structure1 instance)) and that works althought is rather convoluted
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18:02 offby1: 'fraid that's the only choice I know of
18:02 offby1: you could write a helper function that pulls the foo member from the bar member from a baz structure.
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18:03 flying_rhino: okay and how do you mutate mutable structures? (set! (my-structure-item instance) new-value) doesn't seem to work?
18:03 offby1: indeed
18:04 flying_rhino: so how to do that?
18:04 offby1: dunno 'bout Typed Racket, but you want something like (set-my-structure-item!)
18:04 offby1: the docs explain it
18:04 offby1: rudybot: init
18:04 rudybot: *offby1: your sandbox is ready
18:04 offby1: rudybot: (struct baz (bar))
18:04 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:04 offby1: rudybot: (struct bar (foo))
18:04 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:04 offby1: 
18:04 offby1: rudybot: (define a-baz (baz (bar 'frotz)))
18:04 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:04 offby1: rudybot: (baz-bar a-baz)
18:04 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #(struct:bar frotz)
18:04 flying_rhino: okay, and how do you do that when you have mutable structure within mutable structure?
18:05 offby1: rudybot: (bar-foo (baz-bar a-baz))
18:05 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: frotz
18:05 offby1: rudybot: (define x (compse bar-foo baz-bar))
18:05 rudybot: *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: compse in module: 'program
18:05 offby1: rudybot: (define x (compose bar-foo baz-bar))
18:05 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:05 offby1: rudybot: (x a-baz)
18:05 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: frotz
18:05 offby1: flying_rhino: can't you guess?
18:06 flying_rhino: I'll try to
18:07 offby1: now that you've made me think about it I confess it's not obvious to me, either
18:07 flying_rhino: (set-my-structure-structure1-item! new-val)
18:07 flying_rhino: now not that
18:07 flying_rhino: *no
18:07 offby1: I suspect you _get_ the outer thing, then _set_ its field.
18:07 offby1: let's see.
18:08 offby1: rudybot: (struct outer (o) #:mutable)
18:08 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:08 (quit) yoklov: Quit: computer sleeping
18:08 offby1: rudybot: (struct innter (i) #:mutable)
18:08 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:08 offby1: oops
18:08 offby1: oh well
18:08 offby1: rudybot: (define i (innter 'sure-is-dark-in-here))
18:08 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:08 offby1: rudybot: (define o (outer i))
18:08 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:08 offby1: o
18:08 offby1: rudybot: o
18:08 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #(struct:outer #(struct:innter sure-is-dark-in-here))
18:09 offby1: rudybot: (set-innter-i! "turn the lights back on" (outer-o o))
18:09 rudybot: *offby1: error: set-innter-i!: expects type <struct:innter> as 1st argument, given: "turn the lights back on"; other arguments were: #<innter>
18:09 offby1: rudybot: (set-innter-i! (outer-o o) "turn the lights back on" )
18:09 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:09 offby1: rudybot: o
18:09 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #(struct:outer #(struct:innter "turn the lights back on"))
18:09 offby1: ta da
18:09 offby1: and I suspect this o is still eq? to the original but I can't prove that now
18:10 offby1: rudybot: (define old o)
18:10 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:10 offby1: rudybot: (set-innter-i! (outer-o o) "the third inner value" )
18:10 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
18:10 offby1: o
18:10 offby1: rudybot: o
18:10 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #(struct:outer #(struct:innter "the third inner value"))
18:10 offby1: rudybot: old
18:10 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #(struct:outer #(struct:innter "the third inner value"))
18:10 offby1: yep
18:10 offby1: rudybot: (eq? o old)
18:10 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #t
18:10 offby1: all hail mutation, I guess.
18:10 offby1: now that you know how to do it, don't :)
18:10 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
18:10 flying_rhino: well I am creting mutable dubly linked list
18:11 flying_rhino: something I wnated to do before but somehow never gotten to it
18:11 flying_rhino: I abandoned racket for some reason but now I am back
18:11 flying_rhino: *doubly linked list
18:11 flying_rhino: you guys don't seem to like mutation much?
18:12 flying_rhino: thanks for helping me, by the way
18:12 flying_rhino: :)
18:12 offby1: mutation is _generally_ more trouble than it's worth.
18:13 offby1: but for inserts into the middle of a list, it's sho' 'nuff fast :)
18:13 flying_rhino: well I am basically looking for viable game development platform in lisp (well in my free time at least) so mutation is a must.
18:14 flying_rhino: too much state in game for relying entirely on immutable data types
18:15 flying_rhino: or you disagree?
18:17 offby1: well, my pessimistic hunch is that racket isn't "viable" anyway
18:17 (quit) vkz: Quit: vkz
18:18 flying_rhino: what do you mean?
18:18 offby1: I'm just a pessimist in general.
18:18 flying_rhino: what is wrong with racket in particular?
18:20 flying_rhino: anyway is there a way in typed racket to define function in single line?
18:20 offby1: dunno.
18:21 offby1: I don't use typed racket (although I should)
18:22 flying_rhino: two line solution that I know of is (: function-name (type1 type2 type3 -> return-type))
18:22 flying_rhino: (define  (function-name arg1 arg2 arg3)
18:23 (part) crest
18:24 offby1: yep
18:24 flying_rhino: but is should be possible to just define it with some form of define: or something
18:24 offby1: good point
18:24 flying_rhino: *it should be
18:25 flying_rhino: I could write macro or some black magic but it should be supported out of the box
18:26 (quit) didi: Remote host closed the connection
18:29 flying_rhino: one more thing
18:30 offby1 pictures Peter Falk as "Columbo"
18:31 jamessan: ah, Columbo
18:31 flying_rhino: what identifiers does racket create for me when I create a new struct? Obviously there is one for each item, (struct-item1 struct-item2 struct-item3 ...) and now I see there are also setters (set-struct-item1!) . What are others?
18:31 chandler: rudybot: init typed/racket
18:31 rudybot: chandler: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
18:32 chandler: rudybot: eval (define: f : (Number Number -> Number) (lambda (x y) (+ x (/ y 2))))
18:32 rudybot: chandler: Done.
18:32 chandler: rudybot: eval (f 1 2)
18:32 rudybot: chandler: ; Value: 2
18:32 rudybot: chandler: ; stdout: "- : Complex\n"
18:32 chandler: flying_rhino: Does that help?
18:33 flying_rhino: it does
18:34 flying_rhino: didn't expect I'll have to use lambda thought
18:35 chandler: rudybot: eval (define: (g a b) : (Number Number -> Number) (+ a (/ b 2)))
18:35 rudybot: chandler: error: #<undefined>:1:0: define:: bad syntax in: (define: (g a b) : (Number Number -> Number) (+ a (/ b 2)))
18:35 flying_rhino: yeah that doesn't work
18:36 chandler: rudybot: eval (define: (g (a : Number) (b : Number)) : Number (+ a (/ b 2)))
18:36 rudybot: chandler: Done.
18:36 chandler: That's it.
18:36 flying_rhino: THANK YOU
18:38 flying_rhino: this thing has multimetods, right?
18:39 chandler: No, I don't think Typed Racket has any kind of multimethod system.
18:40 chandler: I haven't really used typed/racket though...
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18:41 lisp_panda: sorry got disconnected
18:41 lisp_panda: does this have multimethods?
18:41 chandler: No, I don't think Typed Racket has any kind of multimethod system.
18:41 chandler: I haven't really used typed/racket though...
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18:47 offby1: rudybot: seen jao
18:47 rudybot: *offby1: jao was seen in #racket fifty-two minutes ago, saying "heya flying_rhino", and then jao was seen in #racket fifty-one minutes ago, saying "i'm sure if not me others here will know :)"
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18:48 offby1: jao: ahoy!  Gotta bug report for ya but the tracker on Savannah seems kinda unloved, so ...Author: Jose Antonio Ortega Ruiz <jao@gnu.org>
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18:50 offby1: thank God for my accidental-paste-prevention patch!
18:52 jao: offby1, would you just send it to the list or myself, please? or if you prefer to just tell me...
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18:52 offby1: went to the list.
18:52 jao: ah, thanks!
18:56 jao: offby1, argh... that's a non-trivial one... output produced asynchronously is not handled well by geiser...
19:00 chandler: non-trivial bugs are the best bugs!
19:01 offby1 holds out his hand, palm up
19:02 offby1: how does SLIME handle that?  Or will I regret having asked?
19:04 chandler realizes he didn't know offby1's real name until now
19:05 jao: i think it doesn't have the same problem because the repl is not the comint repl
19:05 jao: offby1, to recover the repl: M-x comint-kill-region
19:06 chandler: Actually, that's a question I had about geiser - why do you use comint? Because it's there? Or do you have a more specific distaste for the SLIME approach?
19:06 jao: chandler, comint is pretty good at what it does and i just didn't see a reason to reinvent it
19:07 chandler: Fair enough.
19:08 jao: chandler, i almost always found a way of doing what i needed via comint, and it saved me having to define a network protocol.  the latter is probably "the right way," but sometimes "worse is better" :)
19:09 offby1: jao: I'll probably never remember comint-kill-region :-|
19:10 offby1: Here's another random problem, which I won't be able to describe accurately but what the hell ...
19:10 offby1: I often find that completion hangs.
19:10 jao: offby1, yeah... i had to look for it myself :/
19:10 offby1: never when the repl is new; but after I've used it a while ...
19:10 jao: offby1, hmmm that's much workse
19:10 offby1: chandler: uh, that's an alias that the CIA assigned to me.
19:10 jao: worse, even
19:11 jao: offby1, it'd be great to have a way to reproduce it... but then it'd be a less interesting bug!
19:13 jao: offby1, in what way does it hang?
19:13 offby1: "May you live in interesting times" etc
19:14 offby1: WHY CAN I NEVER REMEMBER THE SYNTAX FOR THE MATCH* FORMS?
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19:15 chandler: Because it's match*, not MATCH*. :-)
19:15 offby1: Oh, and usually when I kill the repl buffer in frustration, I get a prompt asking me to choose a coding system.
19:15 offby1: whiskey tango foxtrot, if you know what I mean
19:17 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving
19:18 jao: oh, really?
19:18 jao: how lame :(
19:19 offby1: (actually, two such prompts)
19:19 offby1: it might be the *Warnings* buffer, or perhaps some idden geiser buffer
19:19 offby1: never figured out which
19:19 offby1: man, high latency and high blood-alcohol make for really bad typing
19:21 jao: offby1, i cannot reproduce it off hand, but will investigate
19:21 (quit) bluezenix: Quit: Leaving.
19:22 offby1: tx!
19:24 jao: offby1, i answered to your email including a second workaround that might be better
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21:36 em: I speculate that a good way to learn things in general is to solve problems or create things which require understanding whatever it is one is trying to learn. I speculate this is especially true for programming languages. Therefor I suggest that someone with the requisite expertise put together a sequence of problems to be solved with Racket such that: (1) The initial problems are extremely easy. (2) The problems build upon skills acquired by solving ...
21:36 em: ... previous problems. (3) Anyone who successfully resolves all of the problems will emerge highly competent with Racket.
21:38 em: The word "challenges" can be substituted wherever the word "problems" is used above, and vice versa.
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