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00:10 ASau: eli: Message-ID: <87zkdf8jtl.fsf@inbox.ru>
00:10 ASau: eli: on development list, Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:16:06 +0400
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00:25 eli: ASau: That would be for Matthew to deal with -- and he was probably busy with POPL at the time.  Just send another email.
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00:36 ASau: eli: another mail with reminder or with patch?
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02:03 MarkSoric: Hey. Another c question if anyone has the time - given four variable, how can you find those that aren't zero.
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07:41 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/s9i5Xw
07:41 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] a second attempt to fix the icns files - Robby Findler
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09:33 tim-brown: afternoon, all!
09:33 tim-brown: is there documentation for such things as: scheme_make_closed_prim_w_everything
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09:34 noelw: There is documentation for the ones documented in the documentation :-)
09:35 Aune: Hello, what would be a good library to use for handling sockets if I want to write an IRC-bot in racket?
09:37 noelw: Aune: what about just plain sockets in Racket?
09:37 tim-brown: outstandingly helpful, noel. thanks!
09:38 noelw: tim-brown: sarcastic?
09:38 tim-brown: a bit...
09:39 noelw: 'cause I'm rather confused by the question
09:39 noelw: e.g. http://docs.racket-lang.org/search/index.html?q=scheme_make_closed_prim
09:39 noelw: shows you what is documented
09:39 Aune: Anyone?
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09:40 tim-brown: yeah... i'm writing a custom port, and as with tcp-accept(?) I want to return (values in-port out-port)
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09:41 tim-brown: nothing on that page has maxr/minr parameters
09:41 Aune: Sorry, disconnected so I did not see any answers to my question, anyone know a good socket library for writing a racket IRC-bot?
09:42 tim-brown: scheme_make_closed_prim_w_everything has that and more! (everything, in fact).
09:43 noelw: Aune: IRC is just text over TCP AFAIK. Racket supports TCP sockets out of the box. You can read and write using, well, read and write (or read-string, more likely). Should be enough to get started.
09:43 tim-brown: so if all the args to s_m_c_p_w_e are documented, then it would be a good general description of all the others
09:43 Aune: Ok, thanks
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09:43 tim-brown: as it is, i had to go to the source of quotient/remainder, and see what was going on there
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09:47 tim-brown: it makes no sense for me to return just one of the input/output pair, which is why I want (values ...)
09:48 tim-brown: ooh, if anyone cares http://docs.racket-lang.org/inside/Procedures.html seems to have a typo:
09:49 tim-brown: second paragraph I think s/ a / as /: "... can mutate the array if it is the same a the result of ..."
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10:42 tim-brown: documentation for scheme_make_output_port documents arguments as:
10:43 tim-brown: ... need_wakeup_fun, write_special_fun, write_special_evt_fun, write_special_fun
10:44 tim-brown: the first "write_special_fun" is incorrectly documented (vs. the schemef.h)
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10:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to release: http://git.io/yT3buw
10:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] added in smaller size icons in an attempt to see if that was the problem on - Robby Findler
10:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] a second attempt to fix the icns files - Robby Findler
10:50 samth: tim-brown: you should send a patch to the dev@racket-lang.org list (or a pull request on github)
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10:51 samth: and maybe docs for scheme_make_closed_prim_w_everything
10:51 samth: but why do you need to make new primitives?
10:52 tim-brown: samth: I'm wrapping a socket communications library which, amongst other things, does a kerberos negotiation
10:52 samth: tim-brown: is there some reason you can't use the FFI?
10:52 samth: it's much easier than writing C code :)
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10:53 tim-brown: i've somehow got to get a "properly" behaving input-port, and output-port
10:54 tim-brown: I have most of the hooks needed by the C API calls available to me in C
10:54 tim-brown: with minimal massage
10:54 samth: ok
10:55 tim-brown: really, the FFI is neat (no doubt about it!), but it's much less appropriate.
10:55 samth: i'm surprised by that
10:55 samth: you can build input-ports out of pretty low-level bits using `make-input-port'
10:58 tim-brown: really, I have functions and callbacks in C that fit nicer into the API... and I can use C type checking and be reasonably confident in that
10:58 tim-brown: my issues generally with the FFI is that *I* have to be trusted to get the casts right on the function definitions
10:59 tim-brown: SWIG, bless it would do that if I were using Common Lisp.
10:59 tim-brown: But not Splendid Racket
11:00 tim-brown: It goes against the grain to (void*) everything, which would make life both easier and "more interesting"
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11:06 samth: tim-brown: there's no need to cast to (void*) to use the ffi
11:06 samth: or is your point that you don't get static checking?
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11:17 veer: what should be the racket type for size_t ? _int or _uint or something else
11:19 samth: veer: probably _ptr or some variant thereof
11:20 samth: or maybe _unit
11:20 samth: _uint
11:21 samth: although it depends what you're using it for
11:21 veer: ok , _uint looks safe
11:22 veer: I am using it in _fun signature
11:22 samth: right
11:23 samth: the real question is if you're using it for something that will be treated as a pointer
11:23 samth: or something like an array index
11:23 veer: array index
11:23 veer: for array index
11:23 samth: then _uint is probably right
11:23 samth: but see the discussion of _fixnum as well
11:24 tim-brown: my point is that I *do* get static checking, in this case i have ALL the types checks available to me from C, and they will be asserted by the C compiler
11:24 veer: ok , thanks
11:25 tim-brown: there is room for human error in transcribing the C types to FFI declarations, because there seems to be no automated way to do so
11:25 samth: tim-brown: right
11:25 samth: it would be nice to have an automated translator
11:25 tim-brown: i can avoid introducing *those* human errors just by making a single call to the C API function.
11:26 tim-brown: indeed... would allow racket to be able to act as more of a ... "glue" language
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11:28 tim-brown: i have a number of projects where the burden of handholding the FFI is just _that little bit_ too much to make it worth doing in racket
11:29 tim-brown: and i'm properly hung up on the fact that SWIG very nearly does what we're talking about!#
11:32 samth: tim-brown: an updated version of racket-swig for the FFI would be very nice
11:33 tim-brown: in my non-existant free time, maybe :-)
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11:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/t9cc-w
11:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Clipping lines now uses exact arithmetic. Fixes visual issues with plotting inexact functions at very small scales. Every plot should render correctly at every scale now. - Neil Toronto
11:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Sped up floor-log/base and ceiling-log/base, and made them correct on flonum inputs. - Neil Toronto
11:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Documented unstable/flonum - Neil Toronto
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12:03 tim-brown: night all!
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14:01 gatlin: Hello all. I'm about to graduate with CS BS from UT, had some formal training in high school math/sci education, and I want to help start a community education program. Part of that entails CS education
14:01 ianjneu: hello, fellow UT CS BS.
14:01 gatlin: ohai
14:02 jonrafkind: whats UT, utah or texas?
14:02 gatlin: Texas
14:02 ianjneu: UT@Austin
14:02 gatlin: Yeah, UT Austin
14:02 jonrafkind: UTCSBSBBQROFLLOL
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14:02 gatlin: roflcopter
14:02 gatlin: I've done some exercises in algorithm design where students sorted themselves, came up with (and informally proved) a Towers of Hanoi solution, etc
14:03 gatlin: but I'm looking at Racket for hands-on programming. I think HtDP/2e is an amazing work.
14:03 gatlin: So, partly I'm just saying thanks to anyone in here who had anything to do with that
14:03 ianjneu: They're all busy, I imagine.
14:03 ianjneu: Matthias is about 20 ft from me.
14:04 gatlin: ah, very cool
14:05 gatlin: But I also know that there are some educators here who have had to teach both newbies and non-newbies with damaging experiences (see Dijkstra and his Basic comments)
14:05 jonrafkind: theres a couple educators in this channel, i dont know if any of them do high school though
14:05 gatlin: well, I'm actually targeting any age who is interested
14:06 jonrafkind: so you should do htdp with those people
14:06 gatlin: probably encouraging a minimum of 16 though
14:06 jonrafkind: theres some guy from brazil or something on the mailling list who does something similar
14:06 gatlin: oh, cool
14:06 jonrafkind: i guess they showcase a bunuch of different technology to each other
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14:07 gatlin: It had never occurred to me to simply lay bare the fact that you're doing abstract algebra, and to teach functional first - let the REPL show you the values of functions and get a good grasp on composition, nested expressions, recursion, etc, before finally teaching about side effects and giving a hand-wave of the Church-Turing thesis
14:07 jonrafkind: lulz I think church-turing should not be mentioned
14:07 gatlin: it won't be mentioned by name
14:08 gatlin: but at the end of the first course after talking about side effects, I might show some simple Python code which does the same thing as some simple Racket code
14:08 gatlin: and encourage students to try to rewrite some projects imperatively
14:10 gatlin: and they'll know that if they design their programs right by minimizing side effects and doing things functionally when it makes sense, they'll minimize errors. Anyway. Good to read there are others out there. rokenrol@gmail.com if anyone has any advice or experience with this book / curriculum
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14:48 jonrafkind: is there some way to "view" the lexical context of syntax object?
14:48 jonrafkind: print it out in some form?
14:53 samth: jonrafkind: all there is is the marks
14:53 samth: which the macro stepper shows
14:54 samth: although ryan at some point had some tool to print out more, maybe
14:54 samth: but that might have just been marks
14:54 jonrafkind: yea I guess, assuming they are bound at the same phase
14:55 jonrafkind: ok so I'm passing in an identifier to the macro but the macro stepper says the identifier has no marks on it
14:55 jonrafkind: only new bound things get marked in the macro, right?
14:56 samth: no, everything in the original macro call should get a mark
14:56 jonrafkind: oh ok yes I see that, other things get marked, but not this one identifier. well maybe thats becuase the identifier is a literal
14:56 jonrafkind: do literals get marked?
14:56 samth: they should
14:57 samth: literals are not a real concept in the expander
14:57 jonrafkind: hm.. any idea why my literal might not have a mark on it?
14:57 samth: no, it's surprising
14:57 samth: oh, i understand
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14:57 samth: you can't see *inside* the transcription step
14:57 samth: which is when there's a mark
14:58 samth: so if it's in the input and the output, it will have canceled marks
14:58 jonrafkind: hm
14:59 jonrafkind: ok the original syntax has a mark, but I can see that at some point in the macro transformation the mark gets lost
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15:25 jonrafkind: ah I solved it with #:at in the literal-set
15:25 jonrafkind: (syntax-parse #:literal-sets ([stuff #:at name]) where name comes from the original macro call
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16:56 aidy: Does anyone know how you can make emacs recognize match-let & co as let-forms?
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17:01 carleastlund: aidy, I believe it's usually something like this in your .emacs or other initialization file: (put 'let 'scheme-indent-function 'scheme-let-indent)
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17:02 carleastlund: Although you may want 1 instead of 'scheme-let-indent, unless you want match-let & co to recognize "named let" form, which I don't think they do.  Although I could be misremembering.
17:02 samth: carleastlund: they do, i think
17:02 carleastlund: Although, perhaps I shouldn't say "although" so much.
17:02 samth: rudybot: init racket
17:02 rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
17:03 samth: rudybot: eval (match-let loop ([(? number? x) 0]) (if (= x 10) empty (cons x (loop (add1 x)))))
17:03 rudybot: samth: ; Value: (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
17:03 samth: carleastlund: yup
17:03 carleastlund: Although, I stand corrected.  Although, samth appears to be right.
17:04 samth: (samth did implement that code, after all :)
17:05 carleastlund: No way, did samth?!
17:05 aidy: carleastlund: thanks :) 1 seems to be correct
17:13 samth: stamourv: ping
17:17 stamourv: samth: pong
17:17 stamourv: Also, bugfixes in the pipeline, tests running.
17:17 samth: stamourv: can you fix the type of expt?
17:17 stamourv: Done.
17:17 samth: great
17:17 stamourv: Ok, all tests passed.
17:17 stamourv: Pushing.
17:18 stamourv waits
17:19 stamourv: Mmm.
17:20 stamourv: Well, it's pushed.
17:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/3PhKVQ
17:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Only optimize fixnum comparisons in the binary case. - Vincent St-Amour
17:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Optimize n-ary fixnum comparisons (correctly). - Vincent St-Amour
17:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix type of expt. - Vincent St-Amour
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17:34 stamourv: Ah, finally.
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18:05 DanBurton: Typed racket question regarding cond: http://pastebin.com/9zMyCQWU
18:06 DanBurton: Since the cond invokes foo? which is based on char?, is there some way to tell that branch that x is a char?
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18:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/Ik365g
18:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] use a function keyword to define procedures and make lambdas - Jon Rafkind
18:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] add fun as an alias to function - Jon Rafkind
18:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] wrap the condition of when expression inside parentheses. instantiate literal sets at the proper phase for honu macros - Jon Rafkind
18:07 stamourv: DanBurton: Change the type of `foo?' to `(: foo? (Any -> Boolean : Char))'
18:08 stamourv: The part after the `:' is a filter. It says that whenever `foo?' returns true, its argument is a `Char'.
18:08 DanBurton: stamourv: cool, is there a page in the docs about that?
18:08 stamourv: And if it returns false, it's argument is not a `Char'.
18:08 stamourv: I think so. Lemme check.
18:09 stamourv: Yep. Section 1.5 of the TR reference.
18:10 DanBurton: stamourv: nice! Thanks.
18:10 stamourv: Doesn't say all that much, though.
18:10 DanBurton: yeah
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18:10 DanBurton: well I guess you already said it all
18:10 DanBurton: its pretty straightforward
18:11 DanBurton: (it's
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18:15 DanBurton: stamourv: related question: http://pastebin.com/YJ5sCNB0
18:17 DanBurton: I want to be able to assume that the input is a Char, given this predicate is #t, and given it is false, make no assumption (or at least, assume it is not #\c)
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18:22 stamourv: DanBurton: This is expressible in the type system, but there's no syntax for it.
18:22 stamourv: Basically, you'd like to give it filters for both the true and the false case.
18:22 DanBurton: well, I want to give it a filter for the true case
18:23 DanBurton: and I don't care what it is for the false case
18:23 stamourv: Or rather, you'd like to assign filters to each case individually, as opposed to one being the negation of the other.
18:23 DanBurton: right
18:23 DanBurton: exactly
18:23 stamourv: I believe we could implement it.
18:24 stamourv: As in, I don't see anything that would make it problematic, it's just a matter of adding it.
18:24 stamourv: Could you file a bug report?
18:24 (quit) Blkt: Remote host closed the connection
18:25 stamourv: Anyway, I gotta run now. I'll be back tomorrow.
18:26 DanBurton: sure I'll file that
18:26 DanBurton: as a feature request
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19:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/uhNjkg
19:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix for an error Galler found - Jay McCarthy
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20:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/y9glfw
20:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix type of `raise'. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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20:41 jaimef: .oO(extend drracket to replace emacs)
20:42 bremner: well. It could start by not requiring a gui
20:42 jaimef: heh
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21:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/inPI9g
21:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix redex's syntax pruning to not drop the #%top binding - Robby Findler
21:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix for NetBSD from Aleksej Saushev - Robby Findler
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21:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/8n-n0w
21:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] The "foreign-test.rktl" finally work on both windows machines. - Eli Barzilay
21:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix apparent bug. - Eli Barzilay
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22:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to release: http://git.io/Td-B8Q
22:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Update version number for the v5.2.1 release - Ryan Culpepper
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23:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to release: http://git.io/DHMPTw
23:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] New Racket version 5.2.1. - Eli Barzilay
23:24 jonrafkind: the main homepage should really have a newsfeed or something so people know the project is alive at a quick glance
23:24 jonrafkind: like '5.2.1 release on 2/1/2012!'
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