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00:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/fkea7g
00:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Lightened icon outlines - Neil Toronto
00:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Removed the animated GIF of the running stickman :( - Neil Toronto
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01:14 ambrosebs: whats does "unify" in the infer-dummy namespace do in typed-racket? https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/typed-racket/infer/infer-dummy.rkt
01:14 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7addzta
01:15 ambrosebs: or, it's being used in the types/subtype namespace, what am I missing?
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03:44 Twey: 193624 < jonrafkind> well, what sorts of errors do type systems prevent? only the class that gives the wrong kind of data to an operation
03:45 jonrafkind: <Twey> 193624 < jonrafkind> well, what sorts of errors do type systems prevent? only the class that gives the wrong kind of data to an operation
03:45 Twey: jonrafkind: Spoken like someone who has not played with one of the newer static languages ;)
03:45 jonrafkind: like what
03:46 Twey: In something like Haskell you can encode all sorts of useful invariants in the type system
03:46 Twey: (like that a handle is closed after it's used, or that a matrix is square)
03:46 jonrafkind: can you emulate const from c++?
03:47 jonrafkind: well I know about sub-structural type systems
03:47 jonrafkind: im pretty sure you can't emulate java's synchronized in haskell's type system
03:47 Twey: In a dependently-typed language like Agda or ATS, you can encode even more, like a proof that the function always outputs what you expect it to output given the allowed inputs
03:47 jonrafkind: yea ive used agda
03:47 jonrafkind: that is an insane system..
03:47 Twey: Haskell's pure, so everything's const anyway
03:48 Twey: Have you played with STM?
03:48 jonrafkind: no, is it in haskell?
03:48 Twey: That does the equivalent of Java's ‘synchronized’.
03:48 Twey: Yes
03:48 Twey: (well, it's a general concept, but the research was done with Haskell)
03:48 Twey: (AFAIK)
03:49 jonrafkind: well you have to explicitly put expressions inside STM blocks for it to work, with java you can declare a variable sycnrhonized
03:50 Twey: That's not really an issue that can be compared with Haskell, though, since variables are immutable
03:50 jonrafkind: so what do you need STM for at all then in haskell
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03:51 Twey: You can construct programs that modify state
03:51 Twey: But it's not done with the usual Haskell idea of ‘variables’
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03:51 Twey: Instead you have a type that's explicitly mutable like IORef or MVar; if you use a TVar (the STM mutable threadsafe variable type) it's ‘synchronized’ by the implementation
03:52 jonrafkind: ok well in any case I would claim that haskell's and agda's type system are not really useable.. that is only experts can use them properly
03:52 jonrafkind: so even though they have the power to do complex things its not worth it
03:53 Twey: http://www.ats-lang.org/EXAMPLE/ — the big scary block of code at the bottom is an implementation of the boring old Fibonacci function that proves at compile-time that it will always return the Fibonacci number for the given input
03:53 Twey: Haskell's type system is not that scary
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03:53 jonrafkind: ive gotten some frustrating type errors in haskell
03:53 Twey: Agda's and ATS's maybe.  Dependent types can get a bit hairy.  But like anything it depends what you're doing with them.
03:54 jonrafkind: i mean ocaml is like an order of magnitude easier and that has stumped me for quite some time before
03:54 Twey: If you're a newbie then anything is frustrating *shrug*
03:54 jonrafkind: who said im a newbie?
03:54 jonrafkind: you just assume so because i dont like those systems
03:55 Twey: You didn't know about STM & apparently weren't aware of how variables in Haskell work; I infer that you're not that experienced with Haskell
03:55 Twey: Which is fine; I'm not judging you for that, I'm just saying that, as with any language, it will be confusing until you're familiar with it
03:55 jonrafkind: those things are basically orthogonal to the type system which i have played with
03:56 Twey: Perhaps more than usual, because it's significantly dissimilar to other languages you probably know
03:56 Twey: I'd disagree with that totally.  Writing actual programs is what the typesystem is meant for.
03:57 Blkt: good morning everyone
03:57 Twey: Good morning, Blkt
03:57 jonrafkind: psh, write a type for the y combinator
03:57 jonrafkind: type systems get in the way
03:57 Twey: jonrafkind: http://r6.ca/blog/20060919T084800Z.html
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03:58 Blkt: :D
03:59 jonrafkind: oh, I heard somewhere that the y combinator was untypeable
03:59 Twey: It's untypeable in the simply-typed lambda calculus
03:59 Twey: Higher-order type systems have no problem with it
04:05 Twey: Oh, pardon, polymorphic lambda calculus can't do it either — you need at least system F-omega
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09:07 Twey: Is there a function to compare lists somewhere in Racket?
09:09 Twey: Or a generic comparison function, for that matter?  (define (compare x y) (cond ((equal? x y) 0) ((< x y) -1) (else 1))) or so
09:21 sindoc: (andmap equal? '(1 4 2) '(1 4 2))
09:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/VhqYpQ
09:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Debian squeeze is back, and a typo. - Eli Barzilay
09:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Guide proofread - daniel watson
09:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] correction for performance.scrbl - Danny Yoo
09:26 sindoc: Twey: if you want a single truth value to be returned after comparing the two lists, then use andmap; should you need a list of truth values for each pair of elements in both lists, then use map tout court ;)
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09:29 Twey: sindoc: That doesn't work if the lists aren't the same size, though
09:31 sindoc: It depends on the semantics of your program; one possibility is to return #f before considering per-element comparison i.e. (andmap equal? lst-a lst-b)
09:31 sindoc: Also note that this only works for flat lists
09:32 sindoc: so if you have nested cycle-free lists (aka. trees) then you should consider a deep-map
09:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/PnBRCw
09:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust two 2htdp test files so they don't run in drdr (they are interactive) - Robby Findler
09:58 Gertm: what's the best way to zero-fill numbers when converting them to a string?
09:59 Gertm: 4 -> "04"
10:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/sZSC2w
10:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] clear the "what was the last language?" state when moving out of the module language - Robby Findler
10:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 20 new commits to release: http://git.io/AATGmA
10:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Removed accidental dependence of images/icons/stickman on racket/gui - Neil Toronto
10:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] fix `find-files' to convert an initial string into a path - Matthew Flatt
10:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Union types instead of clobbering them in the type table. - Vincent St-Amour
10:27 bremner: Gertm: I dunno about best, but maybe use format
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10:33 Gertm: bremner: I just wrote a little function that solved my specific case :) no biggie
10:46 Twey: Is format Turing-complete yet?  ;)
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10:51 bremner: probably. Hence it is the answer to every question ;)
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12:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/swpLug
12:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added pad-handler facility - Matthias Felleisen
12:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added documentation for pad-handler facility - Matthias Felleisen
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14:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/H3uFrg
14:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Icon fixes: - Neil Toronto
14:57 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
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14:57 (notice) card.freenode.net: [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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15:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/NQ4Vng
15:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] this creates a repeatable cored dump in drracket - Matthias Felleisen
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16:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bfD3Ew
16:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fixing silly mistake, plus test; please merge - Matthias Felleisen
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17:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/yc0PCw
17:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] macro-stepper: fix relative require bug (set current-directory) - Ryan Culpepper
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20:00 mintsoup: If I have a pre-existing dc, is there a way to simply draw it on a canvas? Or am I required to invoke methods on the dc within the  paint-callback?
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21:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 6 new commits to release: http://git.io/vShSpQ
21:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] added pad-handler facility - Matthias Felleisen
21:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] added documentation for pad-handler facility - Matthias Felleisen
21:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Icon fixes: - Neil Toronto
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22:53 racketnewbie: How can I use relative paths to organize R6RS libraries? Like section 6.1.1 in the manual: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/module-basics.html?q=libraries
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23:36 asumu: racketnewbie: http://docs.racket-lang.org/r6rs/libpaths.html explains how R6RS module paths are converted.
23:43 asumu: racketnewbie: You may also want to use the ++path option to use the current directory as a collection path.
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