00:01 Qaxz: I figure that is the intention, it hasn't yet warmed up on me.
00:01 Qaxz: http://codepad.org/AuWjx906 now, ths, this makes sense.
00:02 Qaxz: Do note how my definition of compose does indeed accept functions which consume and return multiple values.
00:02 asumu: AlbireoX: Implementing a totally new language just because you dont' like one language feature is a waste.
00:02 asumu: And it's why there are so many bad languages.
00:02 asumu: Every time you do that, you re-invent 50 other features.
00:02 Qaxz: rudybot, eval (compose)
00:02 rudybot: Qaxz: your sandbox is ready
00:02 rudybot: Qaxz: ; Value: #<procedure:values>
00:03 Qaxz: I knew I could count on you.
00:03 asumu: Like lexical scope, parsing, compiler optimizations, and so on.
00:03 Qaxz: rudybot, eval (eq? value (compose))
00:03 rudybot: Qaxz: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: value in module: 'program
00:03 Qaxz: rudybot, eval (eq? values (compose))
00:03 rudybot: Qaxz: ; Value: #t
00:03 Qaxz: My mistakes
00:05 jamessan: Qaxz: this section should help explain what you were seeing http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/defining-types-streamlining-functions.html#deftypes.offside
00:05 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ca6y7t7
00:10 AlbireoX: asumu: Doesn't have to be totally new
00:10 AlbireoX: Fork
00:11 Qaxz: My name starts with a Q and has an x in it
00:11 Qaxz: Look at me being trendy.
00:11 Qaxz: AlbireoX, well, that's a lot of effort for something you an do with a macro right?
00:11 asumu: AlbireoX: Why do that when, with a macro system, you can just do that *within* the language?
00:11 asumu: Also, now you have two mutually incompatible languages.
00:11 asumu: I can't link my old code written with Python with Python-fork.
00:12 Qaxz: asumu, you know what I dislike
00:12 asumu: (or at least, there's not obvious way to do this)
00:12 Qaxz: THat the ... in syntax case and syntax rules is not a user defined identifier
00:12 Qaxz: As in say
00:12 Qaxz: (let loop ((x 3) (y 3)) ...)
00:12 Qaxz: you choose the name for loop
00:12 Qaxz: instead of it being a fixed thing
00:12 Qaxz: Why can't you (syntax-rules ... () <rules-go-here>)
00:12 Qaxz: hmm
00:12 Qaxz: think about it
00:13 Qaxz: it would solve awkward things like (... ...)
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00:13 Qaxz: You'd just use ...-inner for the inner epilipses or something, you know I'm right.
00:14 jonrafkind: ... is an identifier
00:15 jonrafkind: (require (rename-in racket/base [... my-ellipses-thing]))
00:15 jonrafkind: (... ...) would be required no matter what you named the identifier
00:15 Qaxz: No
00:15 Qaxz: I mean
00:15 offby1: rudybot: (define ... 'dotz)
00:15 rudybot: *offby1: your sandbox is ready
00:15 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
00:15 offby1: rudybot: ...
00:15 rudybot: *offby1: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
00:15 Qaxz: THat you have to name it in each individual syntax-rules
00:15 offby1: rudybot: eval ...
00:15 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: dotz
00:15 Qaxz: Like ehh
00:16 Qaxz: If you want a macro to expand to another macro
00:16 jonrafkind: you are trying to get around the (... ...) right?
00:17 offby1: rudybot: ((... ...) "now what")
00:17 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: "now what"
00:19 mithos28: Qaxz: Read http://barzilay.org/misc/stxparam.pdf . The solution you propose has just as many problems
00:19 Qaxz: You can do like (define-syntax define-syntax-rule (syntax-rules ... () ((define-syntax-rule name epilipses (keywords ...) (pattern ...) (body ...)) (define-syntax name (syntax-rules epilipses (keywords ...) ((name pattern ...) (body ...))))
00:21 Qaxz: mithos28, I'm not sure how it relates to my problem.
00:22 mithos28: you want to introduce explicit names for sub forms of the macro right?
00:22 mithos28: that paper explains the problems introduced by that mechanism
00:27 Qaxz: No, I don't want to do that.
00:27 Qaxz: Like
00:28 Qaxz: the symbol '...' it has a special meaning in syntax rules and syntax case right?
00:28 Qaxz: The identifier, it doesn't capture as ordinarily as other arbitrary identifiers like say foo and bar do.
00:28 mithos28: yes it does
00:29 Qaxz: Quite, so, you have a syntax like (syntax-rules () ((let ((name value) ...) body ...) ((lambda (name ....) body ...) value ...)))
00:30 Qaxz: Basically, all I want is for this to become  (syntax-rules ... () ((let ((name value) ...) body ...) ((lambda (name ....) body ...) value ...)))
00:30 Qaxz: Where this would be identical to say  (syntax-rules carwash () ((let ((name value) carwash) body carwash) ((lambda (name carwash) body carwash) value carwash)))
00:30 mithos28: which is explicitly naming … as your macro subform for repitition
00:31 Qaxz: As in, you can define for every syntax rule individually what the idenfier is which stands for your epilipses
00:31 Qaxz: Yeah
00:31 Qaxz: Basically.
00:31 mithos28: which is exactly why I told you to read the paper
00:31 Qaxz: I'm not sure which part of the paper even addreses this.
00:31 mithos28: also you are missing the fact that syntax-rules is not a core form
00:32 mithos28: and that syntax or as it is more commonly written #' uses the binding of … specially
00:34 Qaxz: Yes, so you have to in that case define your epilipses in both syntax-case and in syntax I suppose.
00:48 (quit) Qaxz: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
01:00 AlbireoX: Then that's not coding in racket
01:00 AlbireoX: that's in some weird language
01:00 AlbireoX: That's the problem
01:01 AlbireoX: Code samples aren't consistent ampngst people
01:01 AlbireoX: Therefore not as good support
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03:18 Shviller: Bah, Miranda crashed.
03:24 tauntaun: Shviller: hasn't that long been superseded by Haskell?
03:25 Shviller: tauntaun: I meant the IM client. That message was meant for a different channel, sorry for the non sequetur. :)
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05:36 Blkt: good morning everyone
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15:09 tauntaun: Anyone want to critique a couple of lines of code? At https://gist.github.com/1511569 I use syntax-rules to implement list comprehension ('for').  Feedback appreciated.
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15:49 tonyg: tauntaun: it needs some examples :)
15:49 tonyg: tauntaun: also, why "(val ...)" rather than "val"?
15:54 tauntaun: tonyg: thanks for responding.  I'll add examples right now.
15:55 tauntaun: tonyg: done.
15:55 tauntaun: (just reload the gist page)
15:55 tonyg: cool, looks good
15:55 tonyg: so why the (val ...)?
15:58 tauntaun: tonyg: in order to enforce the syntax.
15:58 tauntaun: How else might I require a list after a variable?
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16:06 tonyg: tauntaun: you can't
16:07 tonyg: tauntaun: the position where you have (val ...) is syntactically an expression
16:07 tonyg: tauntaun: in your examples, you have '(1 2 3) in that position, which is sugar for (quote (1 2 3))
16:08 tonyg: tauntaun: if you don't change "(val ...)" to "val", your syntax rules out for example (let ((xs '(1 2 3))) (for ((x xs)) (* x x)))
16:09 asumu: tauntaun: Combined with tonyg's suggestion, you can require "list-ness" dynamically.
16:09 asumu: s/require/enforce/
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19:18 yoklov: Hey, the docs for the racket/class say "A generic can be used instead of a method name to avoid the cost of relocating a method by name within a class".  How significant is that cost?  Significant enough so that i should use them often?
19:19 yoklov: err, *the docs for racket/class
19:21 yoklov: or is it a "only if it becomes a problem" sort of thing
19:38 tauntaun: asumu & tonyg: sorry for the delay.  I've revised per your suggestions, giving three different versions.  Again, I'd be grateful if you commented on it: https://gist.github.com/1512503.
19:39 tauntaun: And this time I'm not trying to do other things simultaneously, so I should be more responive :)
19:39 tauntaun: responsive*
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19:51 RPR: There is coding ... and then there is coding to Joe Satriani.
20:01 yoklov: there is coding … and then there is coding to Daft Punk
20:01 yoklov: :p
20:22 tauntaun: There is coding ... and then there is coding to the sweet sounds of a hundred chipmunks being slaughtered in a Satanic ritual next door.
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20:28 yoklov: sounds metal as heck dude \m/
20:30 tauntaun: Don't you mean \w/ ?
20:35 yoklov: ?  its like the devil horn fingers
20:37 tauntaun: Yes, you're knuckles have to line up.
20:37 tauntaun groans
20:37 tauntaun: you're -> your
20:38 jamessan: which is why it's an m
20:38 yoklov: its just pointer and pinky
20:38 yoklov: not thumb and pinky
20:38 yoklov: if thats not what its supposed to be then i dont know
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21:27 tonyg: tauntaun: looks v good (the for macros). Only minor thing I'd change, aesthetic only, is instead of ". r" I'd use "..."
21:27 tonyg: e.g. ((v0 xs0) (v xs) ...)
21:28 tonyg: And I'm not even sure that's really any kind of improvment, so yeah
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21:39 tauntaun: tonyg: thanks for checking it!
21:42 tauntaun: tonyg: but ... would require a bit more verbosity, no?
21:43 tauntaun: as in ((v1 xs1) (v2 xs2) ...), to specify "at least one".
21:43 tonyg: tauntaun: yeah, probably. it might be a wee bit easier to read, though. i don't know; and ymmv!
21:44 tauntaun: tonyg: ok, I can't keep up with all the latest acronyms :0
21:44 tauntaun: ymmv?
21:45 mithos28: your mileage? may vary
21:47 tauntaun throws up his hands.
21:47 tauntaun: mithos28: what does that *mean*?
21:47 tauntaun looks up in stupid urban dictionary
21:47 mithos28: that you may not get the same effect
21:54 tonyg: :-)
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