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05:19 Luis_: Hi, does anyone know how to use While in scheme?
05:20 Luis_: i'm unable to do that
05:20 Luis_: i allways get and error
05:20 Luis_: expand: unbound identifier in module in: while
05:23 Luis_: [10:19] <Luis_> Hi, does anyone know how to use While in scheme? [10:20] <Luis_> i'm unable to do that [10:20] <Luis_> i allways get and error [10:20] <Luis_> expand: unbound identifier in module in: while
05:25 (quit) Luis_: Quit: Page closed
05:27 noelw: Luis: Scheme doesn't have a while operator by default
05:54 loz2: do is like while with post-condition
05:55 loz2: ow, hi has already quit
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10:09 tonyg: In recent builds of Racket, (eq? "a" "a"), but not (eq? '#s(x) '#s(x)). Should the latter also return #t? (IMO: probably?)
10:18 (nick) samth_away -> samth
10:18 samth: tonyg: what about (eq? '(a) '(a))?
10:18 samth: or (eq? (list 'a) (list 'a))?
10:19 tonyg: the former, #t
10:19 tonyg: the latter #f
10:19 tonyg: i'm referring to the recent change to racket to identify literals during compilation
10:19 tonyg: it's weird that it does it for strings but not other compound data structures
10:23 samth: tonyg: it's not just literals
10:23 tonyg: oh? ok
10:23 samth: rudybot: (eq? (string #\a) (string #\a))
10:23 rudybot: samth: ; Value: #f
10:23 samth: grr
10:23 samth: rudybot is not up to date
10:23 tonyg: my build from yesterday answers #f to that too
10:23 samth: or maybe i'm just crazy
10:23 tonyg: 5.2.0.5
10:43 samth: i am just crazy -- it's only the reader that interns
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12:06 Shvillr: rudybot: eval 1 2
12:06 rudybot: Shvillr: your sandbox is ready
12:06 rudybot: Shvillr: ; Value: 2
12:06 Shvillr: rudybot: eval (define s1 (in-value 0))
12:06 rudybot: Shvillr: Done.
12:07 Shvillr: rudybot: eval (define s2 (in-cycle '(1 2 3)))
12:07 rudybot: Shvillr: Done.
12:07 Shvillr: rudybot: eval (define s1||s2 (in-parallel s1 s2))
12:07 rudybot: Shvillr: Done.
12:07 Shvillr: rudybot: eval (sequence-ref s1||s2 1)
12:07 rudybot: Shvillr: ; Value: 0
12:07 rudybot: Shvillr: ; Value#2: 1
12:07 Shvillr: rudybot: eval (sequence-ref s1||s2 2)
12:07 rudybot: Shvillr: ; Value: 0
12:07 rudybot: Shvillr: ; Value#2: 1
12:07 Shvillr: Guys, I think that's a bug.
12:08 Shvillr: My guess is that in-parallel mistreats in-value.
12:09 tonyg: Shvillr: you expected it to complain about no such sequence element?
12:09 tonyg: I think that's what I'd expect
12:10 Shvillr: Nope, I expected it to return 0;2 for 1 and 0;3 for 2.
12:10 tonyg: oh right
12:10 tonyg: yes
12:10 tonyg: given the way in-value works, yep i agree
12:10 Shvillr: And if I replace (in-value 0) with (in-cycle '(0)) it does just that.
12:12 samth: i think the problem there is in `sequence-ref'
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12:13 samth: or rather, in the interaction between `in-value' and `sequence-ref'
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12:16 samth: eli: are we eligible for this: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/114442/open-source-advertising-sidebar-1h-2012
12:16 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/78ho5b8
12:25 stamourv: loz2: Re memory limits, snadboxes can do that too IIRC.
12:26 stamourv: eli: Did you get my patch?
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12:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/Qik31Q
12:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] more info for failing test - Matthew Flatt
12:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add `pseudo-random-generator-vector?' - Matthew Flatt
12:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix PNG reader - Matthew Flatt
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15:00 _p4bl0: "We are pleased to offer you a scholarship to attend the CRA-W/CDC/SIGPLAN Mentoring Workshop at POPL."
15:00 _p4bl0: w00t
15:02 _p4bl0: haha "Run Your Research: On the Effectiveness of Lightweight Mechanization (Casey Klein, John Clements, Christos Dimoulas, Carl Eastlund, and Matthias Felleisen, Matthew Flatt, Jay McCarthy, Jon Rafkind, Sam Tobin-Hochstadt, and Robert Bruce Findler)" takes place at the same time than "An Abstract Interpretation Framework for Termination. (Patrick Cousot and Radhia Cousot)", I'll have to tell Pr. Cousot that I'll attend POPL but not his
15:02 _p4bl0: talk when I'll see him next week…
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15:12 __sam: is there an easy way to get response/xexpr to include an xml declaration at the top of the response?
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15:15 stamourv: _p4bl0: Neat, see you in Philly then!
15:15 _p4bl0: stamourv: yay
15:15 stamourv: __sam: I believe that came up on the mailing list not too long ago. You may want to check the archives.
15:16 samth: _p4bl0: is that talk at VMCAI?
15:18 _p4bl0: samth: http://uzy.me/c4 I found it on the POPL schedule
15:18 samth: oh right, dual tracks
15:18 _p4bl0: yep
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15:20 dsantiago: I'm having trouble figuring out how exactly Racket's threads work… Are they OS-level threads, or user-level threads?
15:20 samth: dsantiago: they're user-level
15:21 samth: if you want os-level threads, look at places and futures
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15:21 dsantiago: No, I want user-level. I was confused by the places/futures.
15:22 dsantiago: I assume these user-level threads can be scheduled across multiple processors?
15:22 jonrafkind: no that would be an os-level thread
15:22 jonrafkind: user level threads (green threads) are stuck in a single vm process
15:23 dsantiago: Hm, that's disappointing.
15:23 jonrafkind: well yea.. I guess it is. but maybe you can use places?
15:24 dsantiago: Well, I want to be able to create lots of light-weight processes and have them also run across all available processors.
15:24 __sam: stamourv thanks, it's #:preamble is what I needed
15:24 jonrafkind: dsantiago, and you want them all to share state too?
15:25 dsantiago: Either way, that's not so important to me.
15:25 jonrafkind: i honestly have 0 experience using places but it would be interesting to know if they don't work for you
15:25 jonrafkind: like if they are too heavy weight or something
15:26 chandler: What I've found in the past is that an M:N model with many light-weight processes being assigned to few OS-level threads works very well.
15:26 jonrafkind: oh chandler is back :p
15:26 dsantiago: I want the threads to be able to do IO without blocking the OS level thread.
15:26 chandler: Racket supports this with threads and places; the only thing it doesn't support is migrating threads between places.
15:26 chandler: Howdy, jonrafkind.
15:26 chandler: dsantiago: That's a separate thing - even if a thread blocks on I/O, it doesn't block other threads from running.
15:26 jonrafkind: dsantiago, places can do that. futures cant afaik
15:27 jonrafkind: thats a neat idea, migrating a thread to a place
15:28 dsantiago: When you say thread, I'm not sure when you're talking about the OS-level thread and the racket level thread.
15:28 chandler: jonrafkind: It should be implementable now with the serializable continuations framework from web-server.
15:29 (quit) __sam: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
15:29 chandler: dsantiago: I meant Racket-level threads. A blocking I/O operation in a racket thread is turned into a non-blocking operation at the runtime level, so that other threads can run.
15:29 dsantiago: Right, that's good.
15:30 chandler: Er, other Racket-level threads can run. :-)
15:30 dsantiago: So I guess you're saying it's possible to create a pool of places (which I'm understanding right now as basically the manifestation of an OS-level thread), and then assign racket-level threads to them?
15:30 samth: dsantiago: no, you can't do that
15:31 samth: places can only receive simple kinds of messages
15:31 samth: which do not include threads
15:31 samth: but if all you want is to avoid blocking on I/O, you don't need to worry about places at all
15:31 chandler: samth: I think you're assuming one particular meaning for assigning a thread to a place
15:31 samth: b/c the racket runtime system manages that just fine
15:32 dsantiago: Right, but if I'm running on a 4 cpu system, I'd like to be able to use all 4 CPUs as well.
15:32 samth: chandler: you're right -- you could tell a place to spin up some more threads doing work
15:32 samth: provided that you could specify what that work was by a name, rather than by handing over a closure or a thread id
15:33 samth: dsantiago: what kind of application are you trying to write?
15:33 chandler: Isn't it also possible to send a listener socket on a place channel now?
15:33 chandler: I'm not sure if that's in 5.2, but I'm awfully sure I saw that go into git.
15:34 dsantiago: samth: A server.
15:36 chandler: Uh, hm. Looks like it's possible to send a TCP port, but not a TCP listener.
15:37 samth: dsantiago: then you could run N places, and send a place a message such as '(start-new-thread-on-this-socket t)
15:37 samth: where t was a tcp port
15:37 samth: as chandler just mentioned
15:37 dsantiago: Right, that's what I was thinking, something like that.
15:39 dsantiago: Thanks for the clarifications.
15:41 chandler: Now I'm tempted to go play around with using serializable continuations to transfer threads between places... but I have other work to do :-)
15:49 samth: chandler: sounds cool
15:50 jonrafkind: can serialized continuations be passed between places?
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15:55 chandler: jonrafkind: I don't see why not...
15:56 freakazoid: wait, Racket has serializable continuations?
15:56 freakazoid: That could seriously change this project I'm working on
15:56 chandler: http://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/stateless.html
15:57 samth: freakazoid: not all continuations can be serialized
15:57 samth: and you have to program in the web server language
15:57 samth: but yeah, it's pretty cool
15:57 freakazoid: samth: I figured. And it looks like it may have serious performance impacts
15:57 freakazoid: But the language I was going to allow is already pretty restricted - it's for a Scheme MUD
15:57 freakazoid: well, more of a MOO
15:58 freakazoid: which is why I'm calling it SchMOO
15:58 samth: freakazoid: take a look at the papers linked from that page for some perf numbers, i think
16:00 freakazoid: groovy
16:00 freakazoid: statelessness will actually serve even more purposes than just serialization
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16:43 eli: samth: Yes, I think that the rules are fine with resubmitting the same.
16:43 eli: stamourv: Yes.
16:45 jonrafkind: eli, can you show me a screenshot of how you set up the racket commit bot on github?
16:45 jonrafkind: i tried setting one up for my own project but i cant get the bot to join
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17:34 stamourv: eli: I also got most of the bash completion stuff working. The sysconfig dir is being propagated where it should. I only need to figure out the best way to call the helper from the installer.
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18:04 jamessan: jonrafkind: the bot joins when you make a commit and then parts again
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18:05 jonrafkind: yes in theory except I cant get it to work
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18:48 chen: hello, can someone help me?
18:48 chen: i need to know how to use quicksort
18:48 chen: but I don't know how to write the cmp portion of it
18:50 jonrafkind: its a function that returns #t or #f depending on how its arguments relate to each other
18:51 samth: such as `<'
18:51 jonrafkind: cmp = Returns a list sorted according to the less-than? procedure, which takes two elements of lst and returns a true value if the first is less (i.e., should be sorted earlier) than the second.
18:52 chen: so could the cmp be nothing more than a < ?
18:52 samth: right
18:53 jonrafkind: chen, are you asking about sort from racket or quicksort from C?
18:53 chen: ok, im trying to use quicksort to organize  a list of images into a increasing order list, depending on height
18:53 chen: quicksort from racket
18:54 jonrafkind: are you using a teaching language?
18:54 chen: ye, im using advanced student language
18:55 jonrafkind: oh ok yes I see that quicksort in htdp is extremely brief
18:55 samth: rudybot: init lang/htdp-advanced
18:55 rudybot: samth: your lang/htdp-advanced sandbox is ready
18:55 samth: rudybot: (quicksort (list 3 2 1) <)
18:55 rudybot: samth: ; Value: (1 2 3)
18:55 samth: rudybot: (quicksort (list 3 2 1) >)
18:55 rudybot: samth: ; Value: (3 2 1)
18:55 samth: chen: as above
18:56 jonrafkind: now add it to the docs :)
18:56 chen: oh so i need  lang/htdp-advanced?
18:56 samth: chen: no
18:56 samth: that's just how you switch rudybot to ASL
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19:06 chen: hmm, this is what i have so far: (quicksort (build-list 20 (lambda (n) (ellipse n (* 2 n) "solid" "blue"))) image-width)
19:06 chen: its not working, it says image-width is getting 2 arguments
19:07 chen: image-height is the same...
19:15 asumu: chen: If you look at the contract for quicksort, it has a (X X -> Boolean)
19:15 asumu: Think about if image-width has that contract and, if not, how to fix your code to have that contract.
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20:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FVUyTA
20:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Opaque types may overlap with anything. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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