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03:45 Blkt: good morning everyone
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04:41 Deadreality: im interested in learning some extremely basic programing, but not sure where to start, is this the right place?
04:42 noelw: It's a reasonable place to start
04:42 noelw: Every programmer thinks they know the best way to start programming
04:43 noelw: at least the ppl behind Racket have a lot of experience teaching beginners
04:43 Deadreality: ok thanks
04:44 Deadreality: is there somewhere that I should go to when I need help other than this IRC?
04:44 noelw: There is the mailing list
04:44 noelw: It's the best place to ask in-depth questions, or questions about How to Design Programs (if you choose to learn from that book)
04:48 Deadreality: Where exactly is this book you mentioned?
04:48 noelw: htdp.org
04:49 Deadreality: thanks
04:50 noelw: np
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05:08 example1: hello, anybody here got an example programm for the 8-queens problem?
05:09 example1: hanging on it for a while and cant find a solution..
05:10 noelw: sounds like homework
05:12 example1: it is indeed :D
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05:28 noelw: Generally not into answering homework questions, for the usual reasons
05:28 noelw: If you ask reasonable questions about parts of your homework
05:28 noelw: you'll likely get some answers
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08:28 epsil: how does let-syntax work?
08:28 epsil: i have a syntax object, stx, that i want to transform according to some temporary macro definitions
08:28 epsil: so i tried this: (let-syntax ((temporary-macro  ...)) (local-expand stx ...))
08:28 epsil: but it gave me a cryptic error ("local-expand: not currently transforming")
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09:36 (nick) samth_away -> samth
09:37 samth: epsil: `local-expand' can only be used during a macro expansion step
09:37 samth: or more generally, in the syntax phase
09:37 samth: so you should only use it in the body of a macro, or in some function that will be called in the body of a macro
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10:08 epsil: samth: the issue appears to be one of macro hygiene
10:08 epsil: I'm reading this paper on it: scheme2011.ucombinator.org/papers/Barzilay2011.pdf
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10:17 epsil: by the way, does racket have something like implicit type conversions?
10:18 epsil: say that if a function receives an integer, it should automatically convert it to a float
10:18 epsil: is there a neat way to accomplish that, or do I have to add a "filter" of my own to the beginning of the function?
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10:53 samth: epsil: i don't know what you mean by conversion
10:53 samth: but probably not
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10:59 sindoc: epsil: if you mean type conversion as in type casts in C/C++ then no; Racket is strongly-typed. Type casts and similar techniques can only be used in weakly-typed languages. The type of a value in strongly-typed languages does not change.
11:01 samth: sindoc: i think that the terms "strongly-typed" and "weakly-typed" are pretty meaningless in the sense that you're using them
11:10 sindoc: samth: how would you define or in what sense would you use them?
11:10 TheGerbil: Hello. I'm new to Racket, and am having fun with the FFI trying to use a function from a third-party DLL (talk about in at the deep-end! ;) and was wondering if anyone knows what the equivalent of (define-cstruct) is, but for C-arrays? I haven't been able to find any examples in the docs of passing an array from Racket to an FFI function call. Thank you in advance! :)
11:10 samth: TheGerbil: take a look at http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/foreign/C_Array_Types.html?q=array
11:12 samth: sindoc: c and c++ are unsafe, which is one thing you might mean
11:12 samth: but also, they allow explicit conversion between integer and floats with casts, just like Racket does with, for example, exact->inexact
11:12 samth: and they also implicitly promote/demote numeric values in operations
11:13 samth: which racket does as well, in (+ 3 4.5), for example
11:14 samth: there's also another sense in which people use these terms, which is that in javascript, for example, + implicitly converts strings to integers in some contexts
11:14 samth: but i would just describe that as overloading
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11:14 TheGerbil: That explains how to create the _array type, which I'm doing with this: (define _p3array (_array/list _int 10)), but how do I then create a variable of that type? (sorry, I know this a real noob question!). cstruct has (define-cstruct), but there doesn't appear to be an equivalent for arrays.
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11:15 sindoc: In Racket, does exact->inexact alter the type of the same value or does it return a new value with a different type?
11:16 samth: TheGerbil: just create a list with the `list' procedure
11:16 samth: the `_array/list' type automatically converts between Racket lists and C arrays
11:16 samth: sindoc: it produces a new value
11:16 samth: you can't change 3
11:17 bremner: casting as mutation? not a completely crazy way of looking at it.
11:17 bremner: but not necc. visible to the programmer either.
11:17 TheGerbil: Aha! Thank you so much! :) It didn't even occur to me that it was that straightforward. :)
11:18 samth: bremner: apparently that used to work in some really old version of fortran
11:18 samth: as in:
11:18 samth: 1.=.2
11:18 bremner: wow.
11:18 samth: and then the literal 1 would produce 2
11:18 bremner: that is awesome. Sounds like something lisp should support.
11:19 samth: :)
11:19 samth: rudybot: init
11:19 rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
11:19 samth: (define-syntax (#%datum . stx) '7)
11:19 samth: rudybot: (define-syntax (#%datum . stx) '7)
11:19 rudybot: samth: Done.
11:19 samth: rudybot: 3
11:19 rudybot: samth: error: #%datum: return value from syntax expander was not syntax: 7
11:19 samth: rudybot: (define-syntax (#%datum . stx) #''7)
11:20 rudybot: samth: Done.
11:20 samth: rudybot: 3
11:20 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 7
11:20 samth: bremner: done
11:20 samth: rudybot: "hello world"
11:20 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 7
11:20 bremner: excellent. This is sure to make Programming Languages students cry.
11:28 sindoc: samth: Would you care to give your definition of weak/strong typing? I think this is necessary considering that not everyone agrees on the same terminology when it comes to type system qualifiers.
11:29 samth: sindoc: i try to avoid those terms, because they usually confuse the various different issues that i listed
11:29 samth: such as safety, implicit conversion of numeric values, operator overloading, etc
11:33 ambrosebs: samth: are subtypes in TR strict? Is (subtype Integer Integer)?
11:33 samth: ambrosebs: subtyping is reflexive in TR
11:33 samth: so Integer <: Integer
11:34 ambrosebs: samth: cheers
11:34 samth: ambrosebs: it's pretty typical to define it that way in type systems
11:35 bremner: someone was talking about replacing/supplementing bits of PLAI with more typed racket material for a class. Since I teach from plai again in January, I'd like to look at anything like that.
11:35 samth: that way you don't have a lot of cases where you have to check T = U or T <: U
11:35 samth: bremner: you should contact Eli
11:35 samth: he has all his current course materials in typed racket
11:35 sindoc: samth: I use the terms weakly and strongly typing to refer to the fact that whether or not types are immutable in a programming language.
11:35 bremner: samth: ok, I think you might have just done so ;)
11:35 samth: i was involved in producing them, but that was a while back
11:36 bremner: but seriously, I'll send him an email/poke at his web site
11:36 samth: sindoc: what do you mean by "types are immutable"
11:36 samth: bremner: also check out his current course web page: http://pl.barzilay.org/
11:37 samth: bremner: TR is introduced here: http://pl.barzilay.org/lec03.txt
11:39 sindoc: samth: at some point during the evaluation, a type is associated with a value, right? Now, is it possible in a language to take a value and say, you're not gonna by of this type anymore; let's give you a new type.
11:40 bremner: samth: thanks, found it.
11:40 samth: sindoc: but what do you mean by "type" then?
11:40 samth: in Racket, all there is is the data
11:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ahyH3A
11:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix futures bug related to GC - Matthew Flatt
11:41 samth: sindoc: here's why i think these terms aren't useful
11:41 samth: most people who use them would describe JS as "weakly-typed"
11:41 samth: but what is usually meant by that is that operations such as + are defined to do things on more inputs than just numbers
11:41 samth: but that's just a matter of semantics of operations
11:42 samth: I could build a language in Racket that did that
11:42 sindoc: don't you think it is useful to give a name to the feature I just described?
11:42 samth: sindoc: i don't know what the feature you're describing *is*
11:42 sindoc: assuming I was able to explain it correctly
11:43 samth: people also say that C is "weakly-typed"
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11:43 samth: by which they mean that you can take the bits in memory representing one kind of value, and tell the language to treat them as a different kind of value
11:43 samth: which is actually a *totally* different sort of thing
11:43 samth: and which is why C is unsafe
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11:47 sindoc: so what you mean is that these terms are confusing
11:49 samth: sindoc: what i mean is that as typically used, they are used to conflate a number of very different things
11:49 samth: things that we already have good terms for
11:50 samth: as far as i can tell, the primary purpose of these terms is to find a commonality between C and Perl that doesn't exist
11:50 sindoc: we don't even seem to agree on the definition of "confusion" :-)
11:50 samth: that's very confusing, then :)
11:50 sindoc: I know, right?
11:50 sindoc: but you're actually right
11:51 sindoc: in a sense, they are too broad to point to a specific feature of the type system
11:52 samth: often i see people who want to create a set of distinctions between "strong and weak" that's similar to "dynamic and static"
11:53 sindoc: we have that too
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11:55 samth: but i think that extra "dimension" just doesn't exist
11:57 sindoc: What do you mean by dimension?
11:57 samth: the two-dimensional model where there's "strong vs weak" and "static vs dynamic"
11:58 sindoc: my teacher surely didn't think that way ;)
11:58 sindoc: but I totally get your point and well, concern
12:01 sindoc: I have yet to investigate how important that concept is. The one I used strong/weak typing to refer to.
12:02 sindoc: Maybe it is not important at a high-level to know whether the type of a value can change at runtimer
12:02 sindoc: *runtime
12:02 samth: i still don't know what you mean by changing the type of a value at runtime
12:02 sindoc: Talking about the mechanics of a language at a lower-level, one might be tempted to want to refer to such features
12:03 samth: sindoc: i doubt it
12:03 sindoc: Okay, please allow me to explain
12:04 sindoc: When you evaluate (+ 1 2) in Racket
12:04 sindoc: How is say, "1" is represented in memory?
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12:21 samth: sindoc: sorry, stepped out for a minute
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12:21 sindoc: samth: no problem ;)
12:22 samth: sindoc: "1" is represented in memory as a C struct with a pointer to an array of UTF-32 code points
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12:23 bremner wonders if samth intentionally answered the wrong question ;)
12:23 sindoc: Very good. Now, what part of that array represent the type of the value "1"
12:24 samth: none of it
12:24 danking: bremner++
12:24 samth: Racket stores the tags of (some) values using a 16 bit integer which is stored in the C struct
12:25 sindoc: Even better so the type tag _is_ part of the structure right?
12:25 samth: for many values, such as strings, that's the case
12:26 samth: you can see a lot of the data representation defined here: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/src/racket/include/scheme.h
12:28 danking: samth: Is the comment "/*III*/" actually "used and set during installation"?
12:28 samth: in particular, strings are defined: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/src/racket/include/scheme.h#L278
12:28 samth: danking: i doubt it
12:29 samth: sindoc: note, however, that some values don't have a type tag stored in that way (such as integers)
12:29 sindoc: interesting
12:29 samth: some values have part of their type information there, and part in another data structure (such as structs)
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12:30 samth: and sometimes, multiple type tags correspond to one "tag" at the level of the semantics of the language
12:30 samth: for procedures, for example
12:30 sindoc: # define SCHEME_TYPE(obj)     (SCHEME_INTP(obj)?(Scheme_Type)scheme_integer_type:((Scheme_Object *)(obj))->type)
12:30 samth: and sometimes data is represented with no tag at all, but the runtime knows that the data is of a particular type
12:30 samth: such as unboxed floats
12:31 sindoc: from this, I understand that the type of integers is derrived
12:32 sindoc: ironically using type conversion in C
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12:34 sindoc: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/0e632187a03d6112ed190153d20e7dfbe8428b0d/src/racket/mk-gdbinit.ss#L38
12:34 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/78nedsj
12:35 samth: sindoc: i don't know what you mean by "the type of integers is derived"
12:36 sindoc: That is, their type is not explicitly in the struct like it is the case for strings but they do have a type
12:36 samth: sindoc: yes, that's right
12:37 samth: sindoc: out to lunch -- back later
12:37 sindoc: it was nice talking to you; on this side of the world, we usually go home from work ;)
12:38 sindoc: at this time of the day, that is
12:44 epsil: if I may intrude with a question about streams
12:44 epsil: is there a "plural" form of stream-cons?
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12:44 epsil: with stream-cons, I can create a stream that says, "here is there first result, call (process) for more"
12:44 epsil: however, my process happens to return several results at a time
12:44 epsil: so I want this stream instead: "here are the first three results; call (process) for more"
12:44 epsil: I can create a stream containing the first results with list->stream (since my process puts its result in a list)
12:45 epsil: then I would like to append a "call (process) for more" instruction at the end:
12:45 epsil: (stream-append #<stream of first results> #<stream that calls (process) again>)
12:45 epsil: but how do I create the latter stream ...? the following works:
12:45 epsil: (stream-rest (stream-cons 'dummy (process)))
12:45 epsil: but it is very ugly
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13:01 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/GfyTDw
13:01 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Increasing timeout for benchmark - Jay McCarthy
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13:19 danking: epsil: (stream-cons (process) empty-stream) ?
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13:24 epsil: danking: (process) may return more than one result
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14:42 nictki: hello
14:42 nictki: i have a problem with racket 5.1.2
14:43 samth: nictki: ask away
14:43 nictki: when a'm pressing syntax-check, racket hangs
14:43 nictki: no gui reactions
14:43 samth: nictki: sometimes check syntax takes a while
14:43 nictki: btw. runnig on gentoo x64 (stable)
14:43 nictki: any suggestions ?
14:43 samth: but if it's really hanging, please submit a bug report
14:44 samth: with the particular program that demonstrates it
14:44 nictki: ok
14:44 samth: using the "submit bug report" menu entry in the "Help" menu in drracket
14:44 (quit) noam_: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
14:45 nictki: thx
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15:05 eli: bremner: Yes, my course is basically a TR version of PLAI.  The website has most of the class notes except for the one for the last class (which will be posted tomorrow), but I can send you the whole file in case that's more convenient.
15:05 eli: bremner: (And the current plan is to have the next PLAI use that.)
15:06 bremner: eli: thanks for the offer, I slurped your site down, so now i just have to read and understand ;)
15:07 eli: bremner: If you've downloaded the whole thing, then maybe you'll want the source directory to make it easier to adapt parts?
15:07 eli: This way you'll also get a bunch of homeworks and such...
15:07 bremner: eli: yeah, that could be. You have my email address(es) right?
15:07 eli: I'll check.
15:07 bremner: this_nick @ unb.ca works for example
15:08 eli: Yeah, I have just that.
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15:52 neilv: the email lists are quiet
15:53 bremner: post a question about whether racket is scheme
15:54 Shviller: neilv, I'm trying to turn your CSV reader into a stream/sequence. The best fit I've foind is stream-iterate from srfi/41, but it only seems to produce infinite streams.
15:55 Shviller: Any hints on how to do it?
16:02 sindoc: Racket is so not Scheme :D
16:03 samth: there are other mailing lists where that produces more controversy :)
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16:06 Shviller: Hello, samth. Is there anything I can read about refinements in Typed Racket? Like, what are they?
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16:17 samth: Shviller: take a look at: The Design and Implementation of Typed Scheme (Preprint) from my homepage
16:17 samth: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/samth/
16:17 samth: although not everything there currently works in Typed Racket
16:19 Shviller: Thanks! While on topic of Typed Racket, is there a way to have compiler-enforced Apps Hungarian at it? So that I can, for example, define a Velocity type that is basically an alias for Real, but a function that takes Velocity would throw a tantrum if I feed it an ordinary Real.
16:23 samth: Shviller: no, there isn't something like that
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16:26 Shviller: Mmm, is there hope of finding something that can do it? I dunno, a Scheme library I can fit into Racket, or something. Barring that, how hard do you think it would be to write it from scratch, in case I feel sufficiently like Don Quixote?
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16:31 asumu: Shviller: Is this the kind of thing you want? http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/guide/contracts-exists.html
16:34 Shviller: asumu: maybe? I don't see the exact use case I have in mind here, so I'll have to experiment a bit. Thanks for the heads up!
16:36 asumu: Shviller: Well if you what you want is to write a library that uses reals internally, but doesn't want to expose that fact to the user (since they're "velocities" to the user) you can do that sort of thing with existential contracts.
16:36 asumu: *if what you want
16:37 asumu: But it probably doesn't play well with Typed Racket.
16:39 Shviller: Okay, time to see if I understand this stuff...
16:39 neilv: Shviller: regarding my csv reading library and racket sequences/streams, looks like one way is to wrap the reader closure in a struct that has a "prop:stream" struct property
16:40 samth: Shviller: all that exists contracts do is wrap your value in a struct
16:40 Shviller: Aha, I'll try that. Thanks, neilv!
16:40 samth: which you can do yourself in TR
16:42 Shviller: samth: Ah. I see. Wrapping stuff in a struct was my first idea. So, lets assume I'm really fanatical about this thing and want to typecheck for this kind of stuff at compile time only, adding no overhead to runtime. How much sanity do you estimate writing this would cost me?
16:43 samth: I don't know what you're asking
16:43 samth: are you wondering how hard it would be to add this feature to Typed Racket?
16:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/2ArPkQ
16:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fixup the heart bitmap so it has an alpha channel and then add it into the weekend/weekday rotation - Robby Findler
16:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] get rid of the obscenely long menu item name - Robby Findler
16:45 Shviller: samth: not necesserily into Typed Racket, since I'm not sure it suits your vision of what TR should do. I guess it'd be something that walks the code and complains if it sees me adding apples to oranges.
16:45 samth: Shviller: that would require re-implementing Typed Racket
16:46 samth: much better to add the feature to typed racket
16:46 samth: but neither approach would be particularly easy
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16:47 Shviller: Okay. Well, when I feel particularly like fighting windmills, I'll have a shot at it, I guess. :)
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16:54 samth: Shviller: file a bug asking for the feature, and i'll try to add it at some point
16:57 Shviller: Oh. Okay. Should I file it to bugs.racket-lang.org?
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17:00 samth: Shviller: yes
17:01 Shviller: Will do. Thanks!
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17:14 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/8dTzRA
17:14 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust the synchronization in check syntax for reading doc results to - Robby Findler
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17:46 loz`: hi
17:47 samth: hi
17:48 loz`: are there features for upgrading code on a fly in racket?
17:49 samth: that depends what you mean
17:50 samth: see here, for example: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/reference/enter.html?q=enter!#%28form._%28%28lib._racket/enter..rkt%29._enter!%29%29
17:50 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7kp3jf7
17:52 loz`: yep, reloading is what i mean
17:52 loz`: samth: thanks =)
17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/UR0I_w
17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Disable test that needs input. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Drop some trivially-pure code. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
18:03 loz`: samth: hm, i'm trying require and enter! in racket repl, but nothing happens
18:04 loz`: i changed function inside module, but old one evaluates
18:05 samth: loz`: read the linked discussion of module redeclaration from that doc page
18:05 samth: and try using XREPL with ,enter
18:08 loz`: hm, i'm trying with module without name, i'm using filename
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18:11 loz`: btw i dont have xrepl, racket 5.1.2
18:12 stamourv: xrepl alone makes the upgrade worth it.
18:14 jonrafkind: stamourv, were you using eli's interactive hack thing before xrepl?
18:15 stamourv: I was.
18:15 stamourv: But xrepl does more.
18:15 jonrafkind: like what
18:16 stamourv: Macro stepper support wasn't there before, was it?
18:16 stamourv: And the launching DrRacket thing.
18:16 jonrafkind: oh probably not, i just use ryan's macro debugger tool
18:16 stamourv: Right, but sometimes a text version is nice.
18:17 stamourv: I try to avoid point-and-drool interfaces if I can.
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18:19 jonrafkind: the latest version of the macro stepper shows you bindings at different phases! i like that part a lot
18:19 stamourv: Neat!
18:19 jonrafkind: since it was my request after all
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19:51 loz`: hm, how to use base64-stuffer : (stuffer/c bytes? bytes?) ? there are no examples of stuffers
19:56 (nick) samth -> samth_away
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20:52 asumu: loz`: There are examples of stuffers at the top of the page on stateless servlets: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/web-server/stateless.html
20:53 asumu: (note: the last time I wrote a #lang web-server app was in 2008 or so, so I have no idea about the details)
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21:34 eli: stamourv: ping
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