00:17 (quit) platinuum: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
00:17 (join) vu3rdd
00:17 (quit) vu3rdd: Changing host
00:17 (join) vu3rdd
01:00 (join) Nanakhiel
01:03 (quit) TurboSaimazoon: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
01:42 (quit) freakazoid: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
01:49 (quit) Em: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
01:50 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
01:50 (join) Em
02:39 (quit) jonrafkind: Read error: Operation timed out
02:52 (join) Shvillr_
02:52 (quit) Shviller: Disconnected by services
02:52 (nick) Shvillr_ -> Shviller
03:00 (join) keenbug
03:20 (quit) keenbug: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
04:17 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28
04:57 (join) ahinki
05:33 cataska: newbie question: program using plot library in racket can only run in drracket ?
05:47 noelw: No, since the new UI infrastructure (version 5.1?)
05:47 noelw: you can run graphics from Racket or DrRacket
05:56 cataska: noelw: like this "racket myplot.rkt" ?
05:56 noelw: Yeah, that should work, assuming myplot.rkt does something appropriate
06:00 cataska: I'm using 5.2.0.3, but only I got is "(object:3d-plot-snip$ ...) in terminal
06:01 (join) mye
06:03 noelw: Oh right.
06:03 noelw: You need to convert to a frame or similar
06:03 noelw: Hold on, I'll look it up
06:06 noelw: Set the plot-new-window? parameter to #t
06:06 noelw: That's probably the easiest way
06:06 noelw: (plot-new-window? #t) before you call plot should do it
06:07 cataska: noelw: It works! thanks :)
06:07 noelw: np
06:08 (quit) vu3rdd: Remote host closed the connection
06:16 (part) noelw
06:16 (join) noelw
06:40 (join) masm
06:53 (quit) Shvillr: Quit: bye
06:55 (join) Shvillr
07:00 (quit) Shviller: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
07:00 (join) Shviller
07:25 (join) jeapostrophe
07:44 (join) vu3rdd
07:44 (quit) vu3rdd: Changing host
07:44 (join) vu3rdd
07:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/SToptQ
07:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] remove more Racket-to-C compiler leftovers - Matthew Flatt
07:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix, generalize, and speed up GC ownership check - Matthew Flatt
07:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix xform-related bug triggered by making atomic timeout place-local - Matthew Flatt
08:38 (join) kenjin_
08:41 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
08:47 (quit) kenjin_: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
08:51 (join) kenjin_
08:52 (quit) kenjin_: Client Quit
08:53 (join) jeapostrophe
09:14 (nick) Nanakhiel -> BorlandTurboIsla
09:14 (nick) BorlandTurboIsla -> TurboIslaam
09:15 (join) epsil
09:33 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
09:35 (join) Blkt
09:50 (join) keenbug
09:52 (join) jeapostrophe
10:13 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
10:14 (quit) jao: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
10:29 (join) dpritchett_
10:39 (join) dnolen
10:40 (join) masm
10:54 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
10:57 (quit) vu3rdd: Remote host closed the connection
11:01 (join) mithos28
11:04 (quit) ahinki: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111116091359]
11:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/hJ-4yg
11:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] intern literal strings, byte strings, regexps, characters, and numbers - Matthew Flatt
11:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix some DrDr benchmark invocations - Matthew Flatt
11:28 (nick) samth_away -> samth
11:36 (join) freakazoid
11:37 (quit) epsil: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
11:44 (join) epsil
11:59 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
12:01 (join) jeapostrophe
12:09 (join) jonrafkind
12:13 stamourv: jaimef: I haven't done much porting from Racket to Gambit, but I've done a lot from Gambit to Racket.
12:13 stamourv: For the most part, it's pretty straightforward. The only big change is mutable vs immutable pairs.
12:16 (join) MayDaniel
12:19 jaimef: stamourv: thanks.
12:20 jaimef: gambit was interesting until every binary it made segfaulted. will stick with racket :P
12:21 stamourv: That's odd.
12:22 stamourv: I've used both, and these days I prefer Racket.
12:22 stamourv: Having a module system is a gigantic win.
12:22 jaimef: their demo code for name-finder builds but all the bins just segfault. no symbols to do much in gdb
12:23 stamourv: Trying to structure large programs with only `load' and `include' is a real pain.
12:23 jaimef: do you build to c? or just use their runtime?
12:24 stamourv: If you build to C, it will link to the runtime.
12:24 stamourv: Do you mean the interpreter?
12:24 jaimef: yes
12:25 jaimef: was trying to find large apps written in scheme. instead I found dozens of implementations of it instead. :P
12:26 stamourv: I haven't used Gambit in a while, but I used both the interpreter and the compiler, and both worked fine.
12:26 (quit) noam: Read error: Connection reset by peer
12:26 stamourv: As for large apps written in Racket, Hacker News runs on Racket (arc is built on top of Racket).
12:26 jaimef: ok
12:27 jaimef: mostly looking to see how they structure things
12:27 stamourv: There's also people in industry using it for all kinds of things, like controlling large telescope arrays. But that code is not available.
12:27 stamourv: You can have a look at PLaneT. It's Racket's package repository, and there's several large libraries that do cool stuff.
12:27 jaimef: yeah and Elvis uses it to diagnose ufo systems at the north pool.
12:28 freakazoid: I knew it!
12:28 stamourv: The telescope part is true. Richard Cleis gave a talk about it at the last Racket Con.
12:28 jaimef: oh I know. read about it.
12:29 (join) noam
12:29 jaimef: (enter! "foo") is that a racketism? or proper scheme?
12:29 rapacity: naughty dog used racket to build their game's scripting languge
12:30 jaimef: PlanetT will do
12:30 stamourv: `enter!' is a Racket thing. But then again, there's not much in the Scheme standards, so implementations have to fill the gaps.
12:30 stamourv: `xrepl' has a nice interface on top of `enter!', I recommend it.
12:30 jaimef: ok
12:30 stamourv: And if you're an Emacs user, Geiser is nice too.
12:31 jaimef: yeap already on
12:31 stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/other-editors.html?q=editor
12:31 jaimef: yeah I live in emacs :P
12:32 stamourv: So do I.
12:32 stamourv: I just wish it was multi-threaded. Sometimes single-threadedness causes problems between my email and irc clients.
12:32 jaimef: yeap.
12:32 jaimef: znc relogs in etc
12:32 shofetim: how does one typecast a string to a number (int)? something like (string->int "1")?
12:33 stamourv: But the Guile folks are working on an emacs lisp implementation, and they have threads. I'm looking forward to that.
12:33 stamourv: rudybot: docs string->number
12:33 rudybot: stamourv: It seems like this is an exercise in learning recursion.  Do you understand how to solve the problem without STRING->NUMBER and LIST->STRING?
12:33 stamourv: rudybot: doc string->number
12:33 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
12:33 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/generic-numbers.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._string-~3enumber))
12:33 stamourv: shofetim: ^
12:33 freakazoid: #lang elisp
12:33 shofetim: stamourv: thanks : )
12:33 stamourv: Anyway, heading out for lunch, I'll be back later.
12:36 (join) Demosthenes
12:39 (quit) Blkt: Read error: Connection reset by peer
12:39 epsil: is it possible to use mit/gnu scheme for shell scripts?
12:40 jonrafkind: maybe you should ask that in #scheme
12:46 epsil: sorry, wrong channel :)
12:47 epsil: the reason I asked was that I have some old cs papers lying around
12:47 epsil: although, maybe #lang r5rs would do the trick?
12:52 jonrafkind: maybe
12:59 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer
13:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 7 new commits to master: http://git.io/kcbnEQ
13:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] clean up main file requires and provides - Jon Rafkind
13:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] dont need extra prefixes for require - Jon Rafkind
13:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] move when macro to the honu language - Jon Rafkind
13:07 (join) MayDaniel
13:14 freakazoid: On OS X, anyone know the difference between the .dmg version of Racket and the homebrew version?
13:15 freakazoid: Does the homebrew version just install the .dmg version in a place where it's accessible via the path, or does it leave out DrRacket?
13:23 (join) masm
13:31 jonrafkind: samth, hows the racketcon videos going?
13:33 epsil: is there any difference between /usr/bin/mzscheme and /usr/bin/racket?
13:34 samth: jonrafkind: you'll find out with everyone else when they're up
13:34 jonrafkind: that is a snarky answer
13:34 samth: epsil: not much, they have slightly different command line arguments
13:35 samth: jonrafkind: what kind of answer do you expect?
13:35 jonrafkind: "i have no idea" or "its going X"
13:35 samth: if i had something to tell you, i'd have told you already
13:37 (join) eli
13:38 (part) eli
13:38 (join) eli
13:39 epsil: samth: ok, so for shell script purposes, #! /usr/bin/mzscheme and #! /usr/bin/racket are equally good?
13:40 stamourv: /usr/bin/racket is preferred.
13:40 stamourv: /usr/bin/mzscheme is kept only for backwards compatibility.
13:40 epsil: I see
13:43 samth: epsil: what stamourv said
13:43 samth: there's no reason to use 'mzscheme' in new code
13:44 epsil: samth: I agree, but I have some old code I want to play with
13:45 epsil: from some cs papers dated 94/95 :)
13:45 samth: then that code definetely doesn't have any references to /usr/bin/mzscheme
13:45 samth: so you shouldn't use it
13:45 samth: mzscheme is not any better for running old scheme programs than racket
13:45 stamourv: That old code will probably run fine with /usr/bin/racket.
13:47 epsil: provided I also add #lang r5rs, I guess?
13:47 epsil: or should I use something else
13:48 samth: epsil: unless the code uses mutable pairs, you should just use #lang racket
13:48 epsil: if I want to, say, execute code samples from sicp
13:48 asumu: #lang sicp
13:48 epsil: ah :)
13:48 samth: if you want to use sicp, use this: http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/
13:50 asumu: So actually #lang planet neil/sicp but close enough :p
13:50 epsil: ah, thx
13:50 epsil: is #lang sicp a superset of #lang r5rs?
13:51 asumu: Maybe, but I doubt it. I doubt the SICP package has syntax-rules and such.
13:52 epsil: hm, ok
13:52 samth: #lang r5rs is unlikely to be useful unless you know ahead of time that the code you have is R5RS compliant, which SICP is not intended to be
13:52 asumu: Hmm, SICP doesn't seem to build for me.
13:52 epsil: anyhow, I've noticed that racket has a different syntax for let-forms, using [ and ]
13:53 epsil: so wouldn't #lang racket cause problems with code like (let ((...)))?
13:54 samth: epsil: racket supports both () and [] interchangably
13:54 samth: rudybot: eval (let ([x 1]) x)
13:54 rudybot: samth: your racket/init sandbox is ready
13:54 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 1
13:54 samth: rudybot: eval (let ((x 1)) x)
13:54 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 1
13:54 samth: rudybot: eval (let [(x 1)] x)
13:54 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 1
13:54 samth: rudybot: eval [let {(x 1)} x]
13:54 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 1
13:54 samth: also {}
13:55 epsil: samth: hm, I'm sure you're right, but I didn't get that impression from the documentation
13:55 epsil: what is the motivation for the []-syntax, anyway?
13:55 epsil: is () considered deprecated (but supported) from now on?
13:55 samth: epsil: it's easier to read code with distinctions between the []
13:55 samth: also, you get better error messages from `read'
13:56 samth: no, () is intended to be used in lots of places
13:56 samth: what part of the documentation gave you the impression that () and [] were different?
13:59 epsil: samth: section 2.2.8 of the guide
14:01 epsil: I can't find any mention of (let ((...))) in the reference either
14:02 freakazoid: epsil: Under syntactic forms
14:02 freakazoid: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/let.html
14:03 samth: epsil: (let (( ... ))) isn't any different than (let ([...]))
14:04 samth: so they don't have separate documentation
14:04 epsil: freakazoid: all the examples there use []
14:04 freakazoid: oh
14:04 freakazoid: they're equivalent
14:04 epsil: good to know :)
14:04 freakazoid: The guide is misleading in that section
14:04 freakazoid: "Each binding clause is an ‹id› and a ‹expr› surrounded by square brackets..." should be changed.
14:05 freakazoid: you can use parens, square brackets, or curly braces.
14:06 samth: freakazoid: that's an introduction, not a specification
14:06 freakazoid: samth: It's still misleading
14:06 freakazoid: Especially for a new user
14:06 samth: it wouldn't be helpful to try to be more precise there
14:06 samth: exactly for new users
14:07 freakazoid: You don't think it's helpful to avoid tricking people into thinking they have to use [] with let?
14:07 samth: why would they need to know that they can use {} there?
14:07 epsil: maybe not in the guide, but in the reference? :)
14:07 samth: epsil: the reference doesn't mention () vs [] at all
14:07 freakazoid: samth: they don't, they should just know that [] isn't different from ()
14:07 epsil: samth: why not?
14:07 samth: epsil: i mean, in the let section
14:08 samth: epsil: the reference describes the behavior of the reader and the syntax in general quite precisely
14:08 epsil: where in the reference can I read about the differences between [], () and {}?
14:08 freakazoid: epsil: I do recall reading it in the guide
14:08 epsil: oh
14:09 asumu: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/reference/reader.html?q=%5B#(idx._(gentag._23._(lib._scribblings/reference/reference..scrbl)))
14:09 freakazoid: epsil: In section 2.2.5
14:09 freakazoid: "The use of square brackets for cond clauses is a convention. In Racket, parentheses and square brackets are actually interchangeable, as long as ( is matched with ) and [ is matched with ]. Using square brackets in a few key places makes Racket code even more readable."
14:09 samth: epsil: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/reader.html#%28part._parse-pair%29
14:10 freakazoid: samth: You can't seriousy expect people to read the reader specification in order to know that square brackets and parens are equivalent
14:10 samth: no, but he asked where in the reference
14:10 freakazoid: I suspect he's using guide and reference interchangeably :)
14:10 samth: that's why there's the guide passage you just quoted
14:11 freakazoid: samth: Sorry I misunderstood your intent.
14:11 epsil: samth: thx
14:11 freakazoid: epsil: You must have skipped the cond section in the guide to get to the let section
14:11 samth: freakazoid: the reason not to talk about () in let is the same reason not to explain that this works:
14:11 freakazoid: It's a good idea to read the guide straight through, since it's pretty short.
14:11 (join) anRch
14:12 freakazoid: samth: Yeah, I didnt' realize that the paragraph I quoted came earlier in the same section.
14:12 epsil: freakazoid: yeah, I recall skimming through that
14:12 samth: rudybot: eval (let ([x 1]) . ((+ 1 2)))
14:12 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 3
14:12 freakazoid: ah because the . is interpreted by the reader
14:13 samth: that's why it works
14:13 samth: damn, time for lunch
14:13 epsil: ah, there we are: "The use of square brackets for cond clauses is a convention. In Racket, parentheses and square brackets are actually interchangeable, as long as ( is matched with ) and [ is matched with ]."
14:13 freakazoid: time for shower.
14:13 freakazoid: epsil: Yeah, I pasted that :)
14:13 epsil: I'll get back to reading
14:14 freakazoid: epsil: Curly brackets too but that may be off by default
14:14 epsil: thanks all
14:14 freakazoid: And using curly brackets may well be overkill.
14:14 freakazoid: I can barely decide when to use [] vs ()
14:14 freakazoid: I just copy the conventions in the reference and guide for the most part
14:15 freakazoid: in clojure they're actually different so the conventions are enforced - they use vectors for parameter lists in lambda, for example, just to make it stand out in the syntax
14:16 freakazoid: I'm not sure how I feel about using different data types in the AST just to make things stand out syntactically
14:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/432P5w
14:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] New Racket version 5.2.0.4. - Eli Barzilay
14:18 asumu: freakazoid: I dislike Clojure syntax in certain cases. e.g. I find (let [x x y x] ...) much less clear than (let ([x x] [y x]) ...) (assuming x is bound in the context)
14:19 asumu: And the mixup of data types and lexical syntax is not very nice.
14:20 asumu: i.e. using [] as binding pair delimiters should have no bearing on how the AST is actually represented
14:20 asumu: Incidentally, it's possible to enforce Clojure-style syntax in Racket using a macro.
14:21 (quit) mye: Read error: Operation timed out
14:21 asumu: (see: https://github.com/takikawa/racket-clojure/blob/master/lang/clojure.rkt)
14:25 freakazoid: asumu: yes I agree
14:37 (quit) epsil: Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5
14:52 samth: asumu: why not just change the reader?
14:59 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer
15:00 (quit) dnolen: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
15:04 asumu: samth: This was easier.
15:05 samth: asumu: yeah, but it won't really work in the end
15:05 samth: because you want (vector? '[1 2 3]) => #t
15:05 asumu: Well, yes I will need reader extensions to do other clojure things like #{...} sets.
15:05 asumu: Oh.
15:06 asumu: I think that works actually let me see.
15:07 (join) MayDaniel
15:07 asumu: So that doesn't work, but (vector? [1 2 3]) => #t
15:07 asumu: Since I hacked #%app
15:08 asumu: The quoted version should return the same though to be true to clojure, you're right.
15:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Qi4xBQ
15:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] disable test for now - Jon Rafkind
15:17 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch
15:17 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
15:23 (quit) mattmight: Ping timeout: 253 seconds
15:26 (join) mattmight
15:38 (join) avarus
15:51 (quit) jeapostrophe: Read error: Operation timed out
15:57 (join) kudkudyak
16:07 (join) realitygrill
16:26 (quit) kudkudyak: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
16:40 (quit) realitygrill: Quit: realitygrill
16:56 (nick) sepisultrum -> sepi
17:14 (quit) shofetim: Remote host closed the connection
17:45 (join) realitygrill
17:53 (join) masm
17:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/IDECWA
17:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix typoes in the raco docs. - Vincent St-Amour
17:53 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix optimization of multi-argument float comparisons. - Vincent St-Amour
18:00 (quit) keenbug: Read error: Operation timed out
18:02 (join) jeapostrophe
18:16 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer
18:17 (quit) avarus: Remote host closed the connection
18:35 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
19:30 (quit) masm: Quit: Leaving.
19:35 (nick) samth -> samth_away
19:40 (quit) Em: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
20:02 (join) Em
20:25 (join) jeapostrophe
20:30 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
20:41 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
20:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/ML4dDQ
20:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add HISTORY note on read-intern-literal - Matthew Flatt
20:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust psyntax benchmark - Matthew Flatt
20:50 (join) jeapostrophe
20:55 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
22:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/Tv2q_Q
22:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] mzlib/pconvert: `add-make-prefix-to-constructor' parameter - Matthew Flatt
22:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add `get-colors' to `color-database<%>' - Matthew Flatt
22:48 (join) jonrafkind
22:58 (join) vu3rdd
22:58 (quit) vu3rdd: Changing host
22:58 (join) vu3rdd
23:02 vu3rdd: any idea on when the racketcon videos will be online?
23:05 (nick) TurboIslaam -> Turbotelix
23:05 (nick) Turbotelix -> Turbohlix
23:16 (nick) Turbohlix -> zfetheItalian
23:20 (join) kenjin2201
23:22 kenjin2201: Can I ask what the  difference is between (define (foo) (define a 10) (+ a 1)) and (define (foo) (let ((a 10)) (+ a 1))) ?
23:23 mithos28: kenjin2201: depending on what you mean, a lot or very little
23:23 mithos28: for most practical purposes they are very similar
23:24 kenjin2201: I'm a newb. Can you be more specific? I'm slow
23:24 mithos28: so let only binds its variable in the inner body
23:25 kenjin2201: Yes
23:25 mithos28: while define, puts the definition in the current definition context, be that the module level or an internal definition context
23:27 mithos28: define also has the niceness that it doesn't envelop the following expressions, meaning that there is no need to indent them
23:27 (join) dnolen
23:27 mithos28: unlike let where you can see how you need parens surrounding the let and (+ a 1)
23:28 kenjin2201: Only the second reason is easy to understand. :) Thank you
23:28 kenjin2201: Anyway they don't make differences for most cases.
23:28 kenjin2201: ?
23:28 mithos28: nope, unless you get to shadowing
23:29 mithos28: (let ((x 1)) (let ((x 2)) x)) => 2
23:29 mithos28: where as (define x 1) (define x 2) x, is an error
23:30 kenjin2201: Oh, now I understand. Thank you
23:30 mithos28: no problem
23:52 (nick) zfetheItalian -> QtorTheDestroyor