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04:11 loz`: hi
04:11 loz`: how do i create multidimensional vector in racket?
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10:27 kenjin2201: Hello, I find it very hard to use macro in Racket than Common Lisp. Is it possible to write all macros that can be defined in Common lisp also in Racket?
10:31 bremner: I guess not.
10:31 bremner: they have different ideas about macros afaik
10:33 kenjin2201: It is really hard to learn
10:33 kenjin2201: It is almost impossible to convert macros i've written befor in CL into Racket
10:36 bremner: I'm afraid I only know a little about theoretical differences between the two macro systems, nothing practical.
10:36 bremner: Racket uses "hygenic" macros. CL not, iirc
10:36 bremner: that is about all I know ;)
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10:37 bremner: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/369-s10/Transcript/mm.html
10:37 bremner: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/dissertation-culpepper.pdf
10:37 kenjin2201: Oh thank you
10:37 bremner: tbh, those are from me "should read someday" list
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10:40 kenjin2201: It looks very hard at a glance :)
10:40 bremner: yeah, there must be an easier reference.
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10:48 bremner: did you look at http://docs.racket-lang.org/syntax/index.html
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10:52 (nick) samth_away -> samth
10:53 kenjin2201: bremner // Yeah I did, I can write simple macros, but as it gets complicated it easily becomes almost impossible to write unlike in Common lisp
10:54 samth: kenjin2201: here's an introduction to macros in Racket: pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/guide/macros.html
10:54 samth: kenjin2201: you can write (almost) any macro you can write in CL in Racket, and lots more that you can't write in CL
10:55 samth: the (almost) is for a very small set of macros that behave very badly
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10:56 kenjin2201: Oh...what's really hard for me is that i cannot easily separate parts of the code using functions that generate code for the macro which I've been doing with Common lisp usually.
10:57 kenjin2201: It's hard to handle syntax object easily. It's much more easier for me to simple deal with s-expressions
10:58 samth: kenjin2201: you can definitely separate out helper functions for using with macros
10:59 kenjin2201: But those functions should handle syntax objects instead of s-exps right?
10:59 samth: rudybot: (define-for-syntax (stx-map f sl) (map f (syntax->list sl)))
10:59 rudybot: samth: your racket/init sandbox is ready
10:59 rudybot: samth: Done.
11:00 samth: kenjin2201: yes, like i just showed
11:00 kenjin2201: does syntax->list generate a list of syntax objects?
11:01 samth: kenjin2201: yes
11:01 samth: rudybot: doc syntax->list
11:01 rudybot: samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/stxops.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._syntax-~3elist))
11:01 samth: offby1: has rudybot gotten faster recently?
11:03 kenjin2201: samth: I couldn't use some functions like remove-duplicates. The compiler says it's unbound id in transformation environment or something
11:04 samth: kenjin2201: you have to load it into the environment for macro expansion
11:04 samth: rudybot: (require (for-syntax racket/list))
11:04 rudybot: samth: Done.
11:05 kenjin2201: Should I use module system?
11:05 samth: rudybot: (begin-for-syntax (remove-duplicates '(1 1 3 4 5 2 4 5 2)))
11:05 rudybot: samth: Done.
11:05 samth: kenjin2201: yes, you should use the module system
11:06 kenjin2201: Thank you very much. It seems that it's going to take some time for me to get used to it
11:07 samth: kenjin2201: another good intro for people used to common lisp is this blog post by eli: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2011/04/writing-syntax-case-macros.html
11:08 kenjin2201: samth: Yeah, I've read it. It helped me a little.
11:08 kenjin2201: One question.
11:09 samth: another good tutorial is this article (not specifically about Racket, but it will apply): http://www.cs.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/techreports/TRNNN.cgi?trnum=TR356
11:09 kenjin2201: is with-syntax only to use some non-hygienic property?
11:10 samth: kenjin2201: no, with-syntax is just a general binding form
11:10 kenjin2201: like let?
11:10 samth: yes, but for variables that are used to construct syntax
11:10 samth: for example:
11:11 samth: rudybot: (with-syntax ([x #'foo]) #'(x x))
11:11 rudybot: samth: ; Value: #<syntax:1:27 (foo foo)>
11:11 kenjin2201: samth: Variables must be bound to syntax objects. right? but i saw a strange example
11:12 samth: if you bind something using with-syntax, it gets converted to a syntax object
11:12 kenjin2201: Oh. So they dont have to be syntax objects. I see
11:13 samth: rudybot: (with-syntax ([x 17]) #'(x x))
11:13 rudybot: samth: ; Value: #<syntax:1:24 (17 17)>
11:14 kenjin2201: is 17 equivalent to #'17 in the above context
11:14 kenjin2201: ?
11:15 samth: yes, they would behave exactly the same
11:15 samth: although they'll end up with slightly different source location information
11:16 kenjin2201: Oh, I was wondering what source location means.
11:17 samth: kenjin2201: source location is where the syntax object came from -- it's how racket gives good error messages
11:19 kenjin2201: So it's irrelevant to how the program actually works ?
11:20 samth: kenjin2201: well, you can write macros that depend on them, but that would be pretty bad style
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11:22 kenjin2201: samth: You really saved me. Thank you.
11:23 samth: kenjin2201: no problem
11:26 kenjin2201: One final question, once I get accustomed to hygienic macro, then I can write macros in Racket as easily as in common lisp, no matter complicated it is.
11:26 samth: yes
11:26 kenjin2201: Great
11:26 samth: i've written some very complicated macros in Racket (for example, `racket/match' and `typed/racket')
11:27 samth: and also, `syntax-case' and `syntax-rules' and `class' and `define' and `unit' and `syntax-parse' and many other things are written in macros in Racket
11:29 kenjin2201: Wow.... Is it possible to read the source?
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11:34 samth: kenjin2201: yes
11:35 kenjin2201: I would't be able to understand it anyway. You must be a famous person here. Thank you for your time.
11:36 samth: here's the source of `racket/match': https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/racket/match/match.rkt
11:36 samth: or the beginning of it, anyway
11:37 kenjin2201: Matthew Flatt....I've seen your name thousands of times.
11:37 samth: I'm not matthew :)
11:37 samth: here's the source to syntax-rules and syntax-case: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/racket/private/stxcase-scheme.rkt
11:37 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/78z8hcq
11:38 samth: kenjin2201: Matthew doesn't hang out on IRC much
11:38 samth: he's just the last person to commit to the repository
11:38 samth: which is why Github shows that commit there
11:39 kenjin2201: Oh I see. I'm not actually a programmer. Sorry for my ignorance
11:39 samth: if you're writing macros, you're certainly a programmer
11:40 kenjin2201: :)
11:42 kenjin2201: I was trying to write a macro that defines functions using pattern match like in Haskell. I've been using that macro in Common lisp. So I tried to apply the same to Racket. But failed.
11:44 offby1: Cool story, bro
11:47 samth: kenjin2201: here's a simple definition of such a macro
11:48 samth: rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (define/match f clauses ...) (define f (match-lambda clauses ...)))
11:48 rudybot: samth: Done.
11:49 samth: rudybot: (define/match f [1 1] [0 1] [n (* n (f (sub1 n)))])
11:49 rudybot: samth: Done.
11:49 samth: rudybot: (f 5)
11:49 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 120
11:49 samth: kenjin2201: there you go
11:50 kenjin2201: Oh...great
11:51 kenjin2201: I was thinking something like (def (fact 1) 1 (fact n) (* n (fact (- n 1))) ...)
11:52 samth: that's a little bit trickier
11:52 kenjin2201: It was hard to take function names out of the pairs and build (define ..) forms
11:55 kenjin2201: It was simple to implement in Common lisp
11:58 samth: kenjin2201: https://gist.github.com/1380486
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12:00 kenjin2201: You are really great!!
12:02 samth: well, syntax-parse is great, i'm just the messenger :)
12:03 samth: now even shorter
12:04 samth: now with multiple arguments
12:04 kenjin2201: Yeah.
12:04 kenjin2201: if i define other functions in def
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13:58 ozzloy: is there a quicker way to do (for/list ([x xs] [y ys]) (list x y)) ?  something like (zip xs ys) ?
13:58 jonrafkind: rudybot: (require srfi/1) (zip '(1 2 3) '(a b c))
13:58 rudybot: jonrafkind: epub is basically a zip file containing html and some meta data. I know enough elisp to hobble a working prototype together but would love to see it developed a bit more
13:59 jonrafkind: whatever, that should work
13:59 jonrafkind: ozzloy, if you search for 'zip' in the docs srfi/1 is the 2nd result
14:00 ozzloy: oh, i searched zip and saw a bunch of file/zip gzip stuff, didn't notice the second one
14:01 ozzloy: what is srfi?
14:01 ozzloy: nm
14:01 ozzloy: jonrafkind, thanks
14:04 samth: rudybot: eval (require srfi/1) (zip '(1 2 3) '(a b c))
14:04 rudybot: samth: error: with-limit: out of time
14:04 samth: also:
14:05 samth: rudybot: (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)
14:05 rudybot: samth: FB have written a compiler that translates a subset of PHP to C++
14:05 samth: rudybot: (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c))
14:05 rudybot: samth: ; Value: ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
14:05 ozzloy: oh, nice
14:06 samth: rudybot: eval (require srfi/1) (zip '(1 2 3) '(a b c))
14:06 rudybot: samth: ; Value: ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
14:11 ozzloy: http://www.ruby-doc.org/core-1.9.3/Enumerable.html#method-i-zip wow, ruby's documentation has gotten much nicer
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16:30 jaimef: anyone use emacs vs drracket?
16:36 bremner: I use emacs with geiser
16:36 samth: jaimef: yes, lots of people do
16:37 samth: there's lots of info on how to integrate them here: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/guide/other-editors.html?q=editor
16:37 jaimef: thanks
16:37 (quit) keenbug: Read error: Operation timed out
16:38 jaimef: coming off a 3 day stint on CL and a friend recommended this.
16:53 samth: if only everyone had such clever friends ...
17:01 jaimef: is the repl in geiser more like lispy repl? e.g. no "run" needed
17:05 samth: jaimef: yes
17:07 jaimef: thanks
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17:14 epsil: if I type #lang racket in the repl, I get a "not enabled in the current context" error
17:14 epsil: this means I cannot send a script containing #lang racket to the repl from emacs
17:14 epsil: how do I resolve this?
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17:21 samth: epsil: you can set (read-accept-reader #t)
17:21 samth: rudybot: doc read-accept-reader
17:21 rudybot: samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Reading.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._read-accept-reader))
17:22 samth: however, sending modules defined with #lang is unlikely to do everything you want anyway -- for example it won't get a useful name
17:23 ozzloy: epsil, mabye you want: ,enter "filename" instead?
17:23 epsil: well I'm still struggling with my first hello world script ;)
17:23 epsil: I'm not sure what I want
17:24 ozzloy: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/geiser_3.html#Switching-context
17:24 ozzloy: if you want the functions in file "foo.rkt" available in the repl, do ,enter "foo.rkt" at the repl
17:25 ozzloy: epsil, ^
17:25 ozzloy: assuming you got to the repl
17:26 ozzloy: tell me to shut up if i'm telling you stuff you already know
17:28 epsil: ,enter "hello.scm" in the repl gives the error "unquote: not in quasiquote in: (unquote enter)" ...
17:28 samth: epsil: try (enter! "hello.scm")
17:28 samth: and then also try XREPL
17:29 samth: rudybot: doc xrepl
17:29 rudybot: samth: not found in any library's documentation: xrepl
17:29 samth: rudybot: (require xrepl)
17:29 rudybot: samth: Done.
17:29 samth: rudybot: doc xrepl
17:29 rudybot: samth: not found in any library's documentation: xrepl
17:29 samth: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/xrepl/index.html?q=xrepl
17:30 epsil: samth: that works (provided the file contains #lang racket)
17:31 ozzloy: epsil, are you using the repl started by running M-x run-racket ?
17:31 epsil: seems I don't have xrepl, though
17:31 ozzloy: epsil, also what version of racket do you have installed?
17:32 epsil: ozzloy: no, I just set scheme-program-name to "racket" in .emacs
17:32 epsil: my version is 5.1.1
17:32 ozzloy: oh, i'm sorry, i thought you were using geiser
17:33 epsil: I'm using the standard scheme-mode
17:33 ozzloy: ic.  idk anything about that.
17:34 samth: epsil: does `enter!' work for you?
17:36 epsil: samth: if I type just "enter!" in the repl, it complains about bad syntax
17:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/DvusNw
17:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust number-snip% so that it subscribes to the file/convertible - Robby Findler
17:39 epsil: anyhow, how do I make (read-accept-reader #t) permanent? is there a .racketrc file or something where I should put start-up settings?
17:40 samth: epsil: you need to do (enter! "hello.scm")
17:41 samth: also, there is a .racketrc file which you can add things to
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17:41 lucian: noob, os-specific question: under what name does ubuntu package DrRacket?
17:42 epsil: lucian: racket or racket-common
17:42 epsil: I installed both and have it
17:43 epsil: samth: yeah, (enter! "hello.scm") works
17:43 lucian: epsil: ah, ok. i'd assumed that package only had the cli tools and went to the website (which has slow mirrors). thanks
17:44 jaimef loves the clear documentation for racket. This is insanely great. given 3 days of trying to grok, or rather find documentation for working CL examples.
17:44 jaimef: #!/usr/bin/env racket ;; I mean like omfg
17:45 ozzloy: indeed, kudos to the documentation team/person.  the guide
17:45 ozzloy: i keep referencing the guide again and again
17:51 samth: ozzloy, jaimef: that's mostly matthew flatt
17:51 samth: eli: ping
17:53 samth: eli: who is the current maintainer of the eopl language?
17:54 ozzloy: lucian, are you running ubuntu 11.10?
17:55 ozzloy: samth, oic
17:56 lucian: ozzloy: yeah
17:56 ozzloy: lucian, ah.  i needed to add a ppa.  did you?
17:57 ozzloy: oh but i'm on 11.04
17:57 lucian: ozzloy: nope
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17:58 jonrafkind: thats funny, now he won't get the package
18:04 epsil: hm
18:05 epsil: even though I do (read-accept-reader #t), I still cannot enter #lang racket in the repl
18:05 epsil: I get the same "#lang not enabled in the current context" message
18:05 epsil: how do I enable it?
18:06 samth: you should also set (read-accept-lang #t)
18:06 epsil: samth: yeah, I've done that too
18:08 samth: hmm, i see that too, but i'm surprised
18:08 samth: you can use (module my-module-name racket ...)
18:12 epsil: maybe it's a bug?
18:14 ozzloy: epsil, have you considered geiser?
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18:18 epsil: ozzloy: well I tried quack
18:18 epsil: same issue
18:18 epsil: I don't think the problem lies with emacs in this case
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18:20 epsil: I mean, if geiser does likewise and sends the whole file including #lang to the repl, I will get the same error
18:21 epsil: unless geiser has a special file-loading command customized to the peculiarities of racket's repl
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18:22 bremner: well, you can certainly send files with #lang racket in them to the repl in geiser
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18:22 bremner: maybe I misunderstood the question.
18:23 epsil: bremner: what is the geiser command for that?
18:23 ozzloy: epsil, http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/geiser_3.html#Switching-context this page does say ",enter" is geiser-defined
18:23 bremner: C-c C-a
18:23 ozzloy: so maybe?
18:25 epsil: iiuc, geiser recognizes the file as a module and reloads it as such
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18:35 epsil: okay, so why is (enter! "file.scm") okay, but (enter! "/home/epsil/file.scm") is not?
18:35 epsil: "not a valid module path"
18:36 ozzloy: maybe current-directory is automatically prepended
18:37 epsil: is there a parameter for that?
18:37 epsil: something I can toggle in .racketrc, or ...
18:38 samth: try (enter! '(file absolute-path))
18:39 epsil: that works
18:40 epsil: one step closer now
18:42 epsil: no.
18:56 epsil: okay, so does (enter! ...) ignore the file unless it has changed on disk?
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18:56 epsil: if I do (enter! (file "hello.scm")) twice in a row, nothing happens the second time
18:57 epsil: hello.scm being a very simple script containing the following: (define (hello-world) (printf "Hello world!\n")) (hello-world)
18:58 samth: epsil: requiring a file twice in racket is the same as requiring it once
18:59 samth: see the documentation here: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/reference/enter.html?q=enter!#%28form._%28%28lib._racket/enter..rkt%29._enter!%29%29
18:59 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7kp3jf7
19:01 epsil: well then, I don't want to require the file
19:02 epsil: I want to /load/ it
19:02 samth: epsil: code in modules is requred
19:02 samth: what are you trying to accomplish?
19:02 epsil: samth: I want to execute the code in hello.scm in the repl
19:03 epsil: repeatedly if I wish
19:03 samth: i recommend calling the hello-world function multiple times then
19:04 epsil: hello.scm does call the hello-world function
19:04 samth: yes, i understand that
19:05 epsil: but I can only load a file once. after that, I have to invoke this function or that manually.
19:05 epsil: is that how it works?
19:05 samth: yes, loading of code isn't something that happens multiple time (modulo more complicated issues like namespaces)
19:08 epsil: what if I want to make a change to my hello.scm file?
19:08 epsil: what then?
19:09 epsil: i don't understand
19:09 epsil: i have a script
19:09 epsil: i want to make changes to it
19:10 bremner: in geiser,  C-c C-a as many times as you like
19:10 bremner: effectively the same as Run in DrRacket, I guess.
19:10 epsil: but geiser uses (enter! ...), which doesn't reload the file
19:10 epsil: or does it
19:10 epsil: I'm lost
19:11 samth: epsil: geiser doesn't use  enter!
19:11 samth: also, enter! will run your file again if it's changed
19:11 epsil: samth: what does geiser do, then?
19:12 samth: epsil: geiser uses lower-level mechanisms to do similar things
19:12 samth: just like DrRacket does
19:12 samth: and just like enter! does
19:13 epsil: sounds complicated
19:13 epsil: nothing simple I can hack up myself?
19:13 epsil: I wrote an elisp function for (enter! ...), which worked except when it didn't
19:14 samth: epsil: yes, it's complicated
19:14 samth: why do you want to hack something up yourself?
19:14 samth: geiser is excellent
19:14 samth: jao did a very good job
19:15 epsil: because I just need this single command
19:15 epsil: send a file to the repl
19:15 epsil: that's all I'm interested in.
19:16 samth: then probably enter! will work for you, since it reloads on changes
19:18 epsil: yes, but ...
19:18 epsil: I want to reload always
19:20 samth: epsil: what version of racket do you have
19:21 samth: if you have a recent version, you can use xrepl, where the ,enter command will do what you want
19:21 epsil: 5.1.1
19:21 epsil: I don't have xrepl
19:22 samth: ok, then i recommend using geiser
19:23 epsil: seems like the only alternative
19:23 samth: epsil: or using drracket, or getting a newer version of racket, or just using enter!
19:25 epsil: yeah :)
19:26 epsil: well I'm signing off
19:26 epsil: thanks for the help
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22:52 offby1: Any obvious reason why I might get "empty" profiling results from profile-thunk? --> http://ix.io/1YV
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23:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/9kRf-A
23:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added support for where & side-condition & judgment-holds to define-relation - Robby Findler
23:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust define-judgment-form so that it - Robby Findler
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