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06:31 eMBee: samth_away: it i build racket on my own machine it dies earlier with make[1]: *** [install-3m] Killed :-(
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08:05 bremner: you need to give a bit more context ;)
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09:37 _p4bl0: Hello, is there a way too have the Racket web server running in a thread while using Geiser?
09:37 _p4bl0: I'd like to be able dynamically make changes in some modules and I currently have to kill the server and restart it each time to test my changes, it's a bit annoying.
09:43 ApeShot: I don't know about your question directly, but it seems sort of not Racketish to do that kind of thing.
09:43 ApeShot: It seems to me like the language is built with more static-ness in mind than most lisps.
09:43 ApeShot: That said, I don't really know
09:45 ApeShot: So does anyone here think Racket can function as a Pure language?
09:45 ApeShot: I lean heavily towards purity stylistically, and from this perspective, it seems like Scheme/Racket may not quite fit.
09:46 bremner: huh? so don't use things that end in !
09:46 bremner: or does pure mean something other than lack of mutation to you?
09:47 ApeShot: Well, there are no monads in Racket, for instance.
09:48 ApeShot: So staging all but the most trivial state based computations is clumsy and also somewhat fraught, because racket isn't (by default) lazy.
09:48 ApeShot: I've written a monad library, but deep thought suggests that it will have difficult to predict time and space properties
09:48 _p4bl0: ApeShot: okay, thanks. That's too bad because REPL-driven development is very very cool when doing web dev.
09:48 ApeShot: And the class system (particularly the GUI) is not functional at all.
09:48 ApeShot: _p4bl0: Don't take my word on this, as I don't really know
09:49 ApeShot: _p4bl0: It might be possible
09:49 _p4bl0: okay
09:49 ApeShot: _p4bl0: I mean, I'm sure that it _is_ possible, but you might have to hack it out yourself.
09:50 ApeShot: I am aware that GUI programming is inherently stateful, but the way that state is exposed is not very pure feeling.
09:51 ApeShot: It seems trivial at first that Haskell puts IO into a monad, but in actuality it makes a lot of sense from a design perspective.  There is no way, in Haskell, using standard idioms, to evaluate an IO command.  You merely build them and then they are executed "elsewhere" when needed.
09:52 ApeShot: This encapsulates the IO activity and lets you focus on composition and calculation of values, rather than side effects.
09:52 bremner: yeah, I know Haskell some. But I'm not familiar with mutation-free gui programming.
09:53 bremner: I'm pretty sure I don't want to get any more familiar with it, actually ;)
09:53 ApeShot: I'd love to get some insight into the design of the Racket class system.  For such a forward thinking language, the class system seems strangely Java-ish, although much more powerful.
09:54 ApeShot: I'm kind of kicking around the idea of writing a book about almost completely pure game development in Racket, and so I'm thinking a lot about these things lately.
09:55 ApeShot: I'm not necessarily an advocate of rigid purity - I'm more interested in trying to see if it is even possible.
09:56 ApeShot: On the other hand, I do find side effects kind of confusing and prefer not to think about them whenever possible.
10:05 (nick) samth_away -> samth
10:07 samth: _p4bl0: it's not possible to change the code in a running racket module, which means that you often need to restart the web server on changes
10:07 samth: ApeShot: there's a paper about the class system here: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/asplas06-fff.pdf
10:08 samth: you can program in a nice functional style using the class system
10:08 samth: but the gui library itself is heavily imperative
10:08 samth: ApeShot: also, i don't see why you'd need laziness to make monads work
10:09 samth: eMBee: do you have any more info about what happened to that build?
10:09 jao: samth, i guess i'm misunderstanding what you said.  it's certainly possible to modify a module in a running racket repl. geiser does that all the time.
10:10 samth: jao: i suppose you can turn off `compile-enforce-module-constants'
10:10 samth: and then `set!' away
10:11 samth: is that what geiser is doing?
10:11 jao: samth, you don't need set!.  plain define does it.
10:11 samth: right
10:11 jao: (or define-syntax, and so on)
10:11 samth: but you do need to change that parameter for compilation
10:11 jao: yes
10:13 samth: so i should rephrase to "it's not possible unless you have control over the compilation of the relevant module"
10:14 jao: fair enough
10:15 _p4bl0: samth: jao: okay, thanks for your answer
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10:28 stamourv: ApeShot: For functional GUIs, you may be interested in frtime.
10:28 stamourv: rudybot: doc frtime
10:28 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
10:28 rudybot: stamourv: not found in any library's documentation: frtime
10:29 stamourv: ...
10:29 samth: rudybot: (require frtime)
10:29 rudybot: samth: your racket/init sandbox is ready
10:29 rudybot: samth: error: current-directory: `exists' access denied for /usr/local/src/rudybot/
10:29 stamourv: ApeShot: If you search the docs, you will find it.
10:29 samth: well that didn't do the right thing
10:29 samth: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/frtime/index.html?q=frtime
10:29 samth: offby1: i think the above is a rudybot bug
10:30 stamourv: ApeShot: For functional games, there's a lot being done with HTDP's universe library. Here at NEU, freshmen write games with it in their first programming class.
10:30 stamourv: ApeShot: See also Realm of Racket (http://realmofracket.com/).
10:31 samth: more generally, though, i think functional guis are not yet production ready
10:31 stamourv: ApeShot: And jeapostrophe has some interest in that: https://github.com/get-bonus/get-bonus
10:32 ohwow: Hi guys
10:32 stamourv: samth: Agreed, but FRP is a start.
10:32 samth: yeah
10:32 samth: as i recall, when carl was looking at this, things like scrollbars were a big challenge
10:33 stamourv: I remember him saying that too.
10:45 offby1: samth: https://github.com/offby1/rudybot/issues/8
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10:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/PYNrVA
10:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] minor docs fix - Robby Findler
10:52 ApeShot: Thanks for all the hints, everyone.
10:56 Shvillr: Hello everyone. Can anyone say anything about FrTime? I made a small demo, but just like the ones provided with it it is very laggy. Is that the expected behavior?
10:56 (nick) Shvillr -> Shviller
11:04 offby1: FrTime doesn't seem to work in rudybot.
11:05 Shviller: Well, given FrTime's nature and what I've just googled about rudybot, I'm not surprised.
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11:10 samth: Shviller: i don't think it should be laggy
11:11 Shviller: Well, I bet it isn't by design, but I was thinking that maybe it's an already known issue.
11:12 Shviller: For me, playing the tetris example was downright painful.
11:13 stamourv: Shviller: What are you running it on?
11:13 stamourv: The JIT is weak/non-existent on PPC, for instance.
11:13 offby1: a bed of nails!
11:13 stamourv: offby1: That may be the problem.
11:13 Shviller: Windows XP/7 (two different PCs), both 32 bit.
11:14 stamourv: Shviller: Did you install using the installer, or did you build yourself?
11:14 Shviller: The installer.
11:15 samth: Shviller: for me, it plays pretty well
11:15 stamourv: I can't think of anything wrong with that off the top of my head.
11:15 stamourv: Unless these are very low-end machines.
11:16 Shviller: Both are dual-cores. XP machine is 1.8Ggz and 7 is 2.5Ggz.
11:16 Shviller: So yeah, nowhere near top of the line, but should be more than sufficient.
11:17 samth: yeah, those should work fine
11:18 Shviller: Would testing it on more Windows machines be feasible?
11:18 Shviller looks around his office and cracks knuckles
11:18 asumu: Tetris is a bit laggy on my machine too. Linux here.
11:18 asumu: Playable though.
11:22 Shviller: My demo uses OpenGL, and it itself gives me the expected 60FPS. But the parameter that is hooked to an FrTime behavior is updated noticeably more rarely, and irregularly, too.
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12:33 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/HHguVw
12:33 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] disable incremental-keybindings.rkt - Robby Findler
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13:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/Y_EQ_g
13:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Improving error messages for non-serializable continuation pieces - Jay McCarthy
13:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] DrDr, test this push - Jay McCarthy
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15:01 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/F60z4w
15:01 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Changed the exn thrown - Jay McCarthy
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15:44 sepisultrum: Hi. How can I best iterate over a list with an index? Is there a function that just returns a list containing indices from 0 to n-1?
15:45 stamourv: rudybot: doc in-indexed
15:45 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
15:45 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/sequences.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt)._in-indexed))
15:45 stamourv: sepisultrum: ^
15:46 sepisultrum: so I would just for/list in an in-indexed list?
15:47 stamourv: It depends on what you want your iteration to produce.
15:47 stamourv: If you want to produce a list, yes.
15:48 stamourv: But if all you want is to generate that list from 0 to n-1, you can use `build-list', `in-range' or `srfi/1''s `iota'.
15:48 sepisultrum: ok, thanks a lot
15:49 sepisultrum: btw, is it practical an recommended to use racket as a r5rs system?
15:50 stamourv: Well, you can't really have a practical R5RS system.
15:50 stamourv: R5RS is really bare-bones, you need a lot more to have something practical.
15:50 stamourv: But yes, Racket is a very practical system, and it's not too far from R5RS.
15:51 jonrafkind: don't let eli hear oyu say that :p
15:51 sepisultrum: hmm, I'd like to stay as portable as possible, so I'd rather use srfis than racket extensions
15:51 stamourv: I just recommend using `#lang racket' and not `#lang r5rs', since the latter is too small to really be practical.
15:51 stamourv: jonrafkind: What do you think he'd disagree with?
15:52 jonrafkind: racket is far beyond r5rs
15:52 sepisultrum: is eli your guru ^^ ?
15:52 stamourv: sepisultrum: Portability between Schemes is pretty much impossible. But Racket is very portable.
15:52 sepisultrum: btw, what's your opinion on r7rs?
15:52 stamourv: jonrafkind: Certainly, but the core ideas are very similar.
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15:53 stamourv: sepisultrum: I don't think it really improves matters much as far as writing applications go.
15:53 stamourv: It has modules, which is a must, but there's so many things still missing.
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15:54 sepisultrum: I'd like to see a small core language and a big standard library. That would make things better
15:54 stamourv: Racket is precisely that.
15:54 stamourv: At the core, Racket is built on top of a handful of core forms.
15:54 stamourv: The rest is just macros.
15:55 sepisultrum: I believe that racket is awesome, but it also locked in somehow.
15:55 stamourv: Contracts? Macros. Optional and keyword arguments? Macros. Types? Macros. Etc.
15:55 stamourv: Locked in? How so?
15:55 sepisultrum: well, I can't switch implementation :)
15:55 stamourv: That's true of pretty much any Scheme.
15:56 stamourv: If you want, say, records, you lose portability.
15:56 stamourv: Or if you want procedural macros.
15:56 stamourv: Or module systems, etc.
15:57 danking: Let's lock into R5RS! So useful!
15:57 stamourv: It _is_ possible to write R5RS programs, but you have to sacrifice a _lot_ of modern language features that make programming a joy.
15:57 sepisultrum: at least if you just use srfis you get a little more portability
15:57 stamourv: Sure, but just to import SRFIs, each implementation has a different mechanism.
15:58 sepisultrum: I agree with you, basically scheme is not good for real world problem solving :D
15:58 sepisultrum: ;)
15:58 danking: That's why I use Racket.
15:58 stamourv: I've ported a lot of code between Schemes over the years (mostly from Racket to Gambit, and vice versa), and more often than not, it's a matter of a couple of hours.
15:59 jrslepak: "a couple of hours" for how much code?
15:59 stamourv: sepisultrum: Absolutely, Standard Scheme is not practical.
15:59 stamourv: jrslepak: 3-4k lines.
16:00 sepisultrum: stamourv: well, I'll wait for r7rs then. Maybe try some racket
16:01 stamourv: If they manage to fix the portability problem, that's awesome. But the problem is more political than technical.
16:01 stamourv: In the meantime, if you have any Racket questions, ask away! :)
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16:02 sepisultrum: stamourv: yeah, it's all politics and stubborn lispers. All the lost potential...
16:02 stamourv: Agreed.
16:02 sepisultrum: I'll come back when I try to install fluxus for the Nth time ...
16:02 sepisultrum: thanks!
16:14 sepisultrum: btw, I have 2 small functions in my drracket, and it takes like 20s on my core 2 duo to "run" this. Is that normal?
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16:17 bremner: seems a bit slow. maybe some system lib didn't get compiled?
16:18 bremner: sepisultrum: can you see how much garbage collecting it is doing?
16:20 bremner: for me, it is more like 1s to compile and run a 10 line program; using #lang racket/base is a bit faster (but of course less useful)
16:22 sepisultrum: bremner: how can I see the garbage collection?
16:26 bremner: I think the little blinking guy in the bottom right corner. It seems setting my garbage collection limit to 1M was a bad idea
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16:30 bremner: sepisultrum: View -> Show log
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16:35 sepisultrum: Thanks, but I can't really tell but it seems that the GC runs a few times during "run". Running twice for more than one second.
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16:37 bremner: one second sounds like an amazingly long gc. I have 44msec here
16:39 sepisultrum: ok
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16:40 bremner: do you mind sharing your code? I could time it here
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17:51 sepisultrum: bremner: well I'm just testing stuff
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18:30 sepisultrum: bremner: drracket also takes like a minute to start
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19:06 sepisultrum: 5~5~5~
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19:07 sepisultrum: oups, this wasnt meant to be posted here
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19:20 bremner: sepisultrum: how did you install? it really sounds like nothing is compiled.
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20:57 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
20:57 (names) -: gabot jrslepak_ jeapostrophe cafesofie dnolen mithos28_ si14 GeneralMaximus SHODAN sepisultrum mithos28 Shviller EmmanuelOga emma shofetim petey Demosthenes gmcabrita cipher- karswell ohwow snorble qfrmitlederhosen tewk rgrinberg offby1 samth_away hyko wtetzner gf3 bremner eMBee tomku zerokarmaleft jamessan acarrico rudybot surrounder shachaf mattmight brainproxy sethalves s_chng danking adzuci zakwilson cky jrslepak stamourv @ChanServ ozzloy sir_lewk
20:57 (names) -: rapacity abbe tauntaun eli mario-goulart elliottcable _p4bl0 asumu ernestas
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21:55 ozzloy: is there an easy way to interface with a joystick in racket (on ubuntu)?
21:56 ozzloy: on the internet i find this allegro thing, but i can't tell for sure what it is
22:05 bremner: well, I googled "racket joystick", the first hit looks relevant
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22:07 ozzloy: bremner, silly me.  i looked all over racket-lang.org
22:07 ozzloy: instead of the internet at large
22:08 bremner: dunno if that bit of code will help, but maybe the author can give you some hints
22:13 offby1: racket joystick bat paddle
22:13 ozzloy: well, more like game-pad
22:13 ozzloy: not joystick
22:14 ozzloy: what do you call these things... controllers?
22:15 offby1: I calls 'em joysticks, myself
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22:26 ozzloy: looks like the allegro bindings are what i want.
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