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03:29 Blkt: good morning everyone
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04:17 jkff: Hi. I'm trying to use the "random" function right from the REPL (like, >(random)), which is in R5RS and in the Racket help, but I get "reference to undefined identifier: random". I've chosen R5RS language level; what else should I do?
04:18 jkff: I get the same error with all other randomness-related functions, like (random-seed), (current-pseudo-random-generator) etc.
04:18 mithos28: jkff: I am getting the same thing
04:19 jkff: mithos28: I'm sure we're both doing something wrong then, there can't be such a glaring omission from the implementation of R5RS...
04:19 mithos28: where are you finding that random is in r5rs?
04:20 jkff: mithos28: I was actually looking at the first link for "r5rs random", http://www.gnuvola.org/software/guile/doc/R5RS-Index.html, but now I'll double check in the official standard
04:20 jkff: Heh, indeed the official standard doesn't have it
04:21 jkff: But there is a documented random function here: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/generic-numbers.html#(part._.Random_.Numbers)
04:21 mithos28: right, but not in R5RS
04:21 mithos28: why are you using r5rs?
04:21 jkff: Well, because I'm a newbie and this seems like a reasonable default choice
04:22 noelw: I recommend not using R5RS.
04:22 jkff: What should I use instead?
04:22 jkff: "Pretty big"?
04:22 noelw: Racket
04:22 noelw: #lang racket
04:22 mithos28: #lang racket
04:22 noelw: High five!
04:22 jkff: Oh. Why isn't it in "Choose language"?
04:22 mithos28: good question
04:22 noelw: Yeah, that dialog is pretty bad UI
04:22 mithos28: choose module language
04:23 noelw: Choose the "select language from first line of module"
04:23 jkff: It worked better, thanks!
04:23 noelw: Maybe peruse this: https://github.com/noelwelsh/making-a-racket/blob/master/getting-started/getting-started.scrbl
04:23 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/4yqjas7
04:24 noelw: It isn't easy to read on the screen, but it's all I have for now
04:24 jkff: Thanks, I'll read this
04:24 mithos28: noelw: github lets you put up html, so you might be able to render that and host that
04:24 noelw: Yeah, I should.
04:25 noelw: I just haven't, yet.
04:25 noelw: A need a roundtuit
04:26 noelw: s/A/I
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05:51 dingfeng: if, in typed/racket, i'd like to have a compose function that takes an arbitrary number of parameters: (a -> b) (b -> c) ... (y -> z) * -> (a -> z)
05:51 dingfeng: is that possible?
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05:53 noelw: I don't think that particular case is
05:53 noelw: If all the args have the same type you can define it in Typed Racket
05:53 noelw: but here there is a dependency between types, and I don't think that can be expressed
05:56 dingfeng: hm... but why not?
05:59 dingfeng: i'm not familiar with type systems, and i'm wondering what restricts the program from specifying a type that's a function of the input types (returning a true or false, and the output type if it's a function)
06:00 noelw: Decidability
06:01 noelw: Your type system could then have bugs
06:01 noelw: or fail to terminate
06:01 noelw: There is work in this area: "dependent types"
06:01 noelw: see, e.g. Agda
06:06 dingfeng: but if the programmer doesn't mind the downsides, it's easy to implement?
06:10 noelw: You mean easy to implement in Typed Racket?
06:10 noelw: Or in the sense of writing your own type system
06:10 noelw: For the later, sure, write your own type system.
06:11 noelw: A basic type system isn't too hard
06:17 noelw: (Don't do this, unless you're getting a PhD out of it.)
06:17 dingfeng: i don't know, but it seems a useful thing to have in a few rare libraries. i'm not sure i'll ever learn how to write a basic type system given so many other commitments; i'll wait for someone else to write it :)
06:18 dingfeng: (Why shouldn't anyone do this with doing this without getting a PhD?)
06:20 noelw: Prog. lang theory is interesting
06:21 noelw: but don't fall into the trap of working on your tools to the detriment of your product
06:21 noelw: (IIRC you're implementing a new product in Racket)
06:21 noelw: That's basically what I meant
06:22 noelw: Very few type systems generalise over arities, which is what you're after
06:22 noelw: Typed Racket does it better than most
06:23 dingfeng: that means all my (compose f g h i j) must be translated into (compose f (compose g (compose h ... )))
06:24 dingfeng: and partial functions (curry) wouldn't work
06:28 noelw: You can write it in normal Racket
06:29 noelw: Have you looked at http://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-reference/type-ref.html#(form._((lib._typed/racket/base..rkt)._-~3e))
06:29 noelw: Section 1.5
06:29 noelw: I don't understand the third form
06:29 noelw: so I may have been telling lies
06:30 noelw: Also http://docs.racket-lang.org/ts-guide/types.html#(part._.Non-.Uniform_.Variable-.Arity_.Functions)
06:31 noelw: I think I"ve been telling lies
06:32 noelw: Looks like you can do it
06:33 noelw: And compose is defined in Racket, so it should be defined in Typed Racket
06:33 dingfeng: too complex. my education is in economics and not type theory. i'll leave everything untyped first.
06:33 noelw: Likewise curry
06:34 noelw: You shouldn't have to do anything -- curry and compose should be in #lang typed/racket
06:35 dingfeng: compose and curry are quite restricted in typed/racket
06:36 dingfeng: curry - : (All (a b c) (case-> ((a b -> c) a -> (b -> c)) ((a b -> c) -> (a -> (b -> c)))))
06:36 dingfeng: (i still wonder why it's called curry and not partial)
06:38 dingfeng: it's definitely possible to recode these areas (and other such functions) when necessary (or to leave it untyped), but a simpler solution would be welcome
06:38 noelw: see Haskell Brooks Curry
06:39 dingfeng: mm. it's not at all like haskell's (the lang) curry/uncurry.
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08:36 erus`: in dr racket can i make it so that when i press up it shows the last line i typed?
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09:07 noelw: erus: Alt-P will show the last line. I know you can rebind keys, but I'm not sure on the details
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09:46 Reox: Evening~
09:46 Reox: Anyone around?
09:47 noelw: Afternoon
09:47 Reox: Hi, I am seeking some help with DrRacket & read-line
09:48 Reox: I tried using read-line on DrRacket and I keep getting this error. "reference to undefined identifier: read-line"
09:48 Reox: do you by any chance know what went wrong?
09:48 noelw: What language are you using?
09:48 Reox: R5RS
09:49 noelw: Ok. stop using R5RS.
09:49 noelw: Use "language defined in source" or whatever
09:49 noelw: the term in the terrible terrible terrible choose language dialog is
09:49 noelw: Start your code with #lang racket
09:49 noelw: You're in business
09:50 Reox: whoa! got it working.
09:50 Reox: so does this mean this read-line thingy is not part of scheme?
09:51 noelw: It's not part of R5RS Scheme
09:51 noelw: Honestly, the R5RS standard is a wonderful work of language design but it is absolutely useless for writing real programs
09:52 Reox: i see.
09:52 Reox: thanks so much for the help. haha I have been trying to solve it for days before i chanced upon this channel >< haha
09:54 noelw: :) Glad I could help
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10:11 Shviller: Hello, guys. Is there any way I can make trait error messages more informative? For example, when it compains that "superclass already contains method", it reports that the problem is in racket/traits.rkt. I bet there is a way to get the full backtrace, I just haven't learned how yet, but nonetheless, Is it possible to modify the trait macro so that it complains about a trait, not a superclass, and gives a code location that pin
10:11 Shviller: points the offending trait, not the helper function called tom trait->mixin?
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12:27 (nick) Reox -> [Reoxard]
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12:27 vu3rdd: For some reason, C-x; o does not shift focus for me in the DrRacket
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15:06 bremner: I forget who was interested, but I updated the racket packages for debian squeeze on backports.debian.org to 5.1.3
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17:56 jamessan: bremner: want me to do the ppc porter build?
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19:30 bremner: jamessan: oh, that would be cool, sure. Let me double check I pushed the new tag
19:32 bremner: jamessan: ok, debian/5.1.3+dfsg1-1_bpo60+1 patches/5.1.3+dfsg1-1_bpo60+1 pushed
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19:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/fcn3Ug
19:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added the Planet Cute images to the (new) 2htdp/planetcute library - Robby Findler
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20:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/8FHYSQ
20:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust the text to match the creative commons license - Robby Findler
20:22 jamessan: bremner: dget's easier :)
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20:56 bremner: jamessan: so it is ;)
20:56 bremner: but I should push the tags anyway
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22:19 em: If you have an image that's a tiff how can you use it as data for racket to do stuff with?
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22:39 mithos28: em: normally you would use read-bitmap, but I'm not sure if it supports tiff
22:39 mithos28: so you could convert it to a png/jpeg first
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