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02:31 mithos28: does anyone know if a library exists in racket for manipulating css?
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03:31 Blkt: good morning everyone :D
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04:56 tim-brown: morning Blkt
04:56 tim-brown: folks, is there a way to "make install" racket without the scribblings?
04:57 tim-brown: I have these on another machine anyway, and the machine I'm doing the install on is ultra-slow
04:58 tim-brown: in fact -- is there a make install without compiling the bytecode, and have the bytecode compiled either manually or on-demand/on-first-USE
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05:14 noelw: tim-brown: make plain-install
05:14 noelw: All this:
05:14 noelw: mkdir build
05:14 noelw: cd build
05:14 noelw: pwd
05:14 noelw: ../configure
05:14 noelw: make
05:14 noelw: make plain-install
05:14 noelw: cd ../../bin
05:14 noelw: ./racket -N raco -l- raco setup -D
05:15 noelw: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/racket-users/chef/racket-users/2aUBwXknmYY/IU_etA0MQ4wJ
05:15 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/43yo645
05:16 tim-brown: does that avoid the compile stage, too?
05:30 tim-brown: noelw: thanks - gone from not completing overnight to 10 mins (or so)
05:31 noelw: great!
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05:33 ernestas: c/r
05:33 ernestas: crapbuster fail
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06:12 tim-brown: do modules compile to bytecode .zo files when they are (require)'d?
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08:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/ZT9lIQ
08:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix cocoa `get-clipboard-string' to never return #f; fix docs - Matthew Flatt
08:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] gtk: fix problems with `on-focus' and `on-activate' - Matthew Flatt
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09:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/siRREg
09:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] update Racket history for v5.2 - Matthew Flatt
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11:07 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/wQ0S7g
11:07 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `get-char-{width,height}' to use current settings correctly - Matthew Flatt
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11:08 tonyg: Does anyone know off the top of their head just *how* lightweight lightweight Racket threads might be? I'm thinking of the (thread some-thunk) style of thread here.
11:09 tonyg: I dimly remember experimenting in the past and not getting much past ~10k threads before things started to fall apart
11:09 tonyg: (on a Macbook Air w 4GB RAM)
11:15 noelw: I recall some old discussion where Mike Sperber (IIRC) said they were about 10x heavier (in terms of mem consumption) than Erlang
11:15 noelw: But threads are dead, anyway
11:15 noelw: Events are where it's at
11:15 tonyg: boomp-tish
11:16 noelw: Indeed!
11:16 tonyg: ok so 10x Erlang =~ 4k per thread
11:16 tonyg: at minimum.
11:17 tonyg: Not bad, not amazing :-)
11:17 noelw: I guess so
11:17 noelw: Also, the event system uses select afaik, not epoll/kqueue
11:17 noelw: It's all a result of the Finite Matthew Theorem
11:17 tonyg nods
11:17 tonyg: heh
11:20 samth: tonyg: i think there are some situations where threads are smaller than others
11:21 samth: corresponding to something called Lightweight_Continuation in the the runtime
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11:34 tonyg: " o/~ ... some threads are bigger than others ... o/~ "
11:37 tonyg: I'd welcome a style critique of https://gist.github.com/1295736
11:38 tonyg: In particular I'm interested in points pro and contra use of thread-send vs. allocating a fresh async-channel and using that to communicate thread deaths instead
11:39 samth: tonyg: have you read http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/pldi04-ff.pdf ?
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11:56 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/L-kHuA
11:56 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Improve the backtrace window to make it show both the errortrace and the - Robby Findler
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12:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/gdCy3w
12:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] history for teachpacks updated; please propagate - Matthias Felleisen
12:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjusted error message checking - Matthias Felleisen
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13:58 samth: eli: the git server is down
14:01 eli: samth: No, it's alive.  (It's champlain -- same machine as racket-lang.org).
14:02 eli: But I can't deal with ssh issues now (the likely problem) -- I'm doing a test now.
14:02 samth: eli: both of my machines are unable to ssh to it
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14:02 samth: which means that it's useless for git
14:02 eli: samth: Can you reach racket-lang.org?
14:03 samth: so, it seems up from one machine now, but not the other
14:03 eli: samth: Can you reach racket-lang.org?
14:03 samth: from one but not the other
14:03 samth: it = racket-lang.org
14:04 eli: You mean HTTP is not working too, right?
14:04 eli: Yeah.
14:04 samth: ping is not working
14:04 eli: You need to bug systems then -- it's a network problem.
14:04 eli: (The machine is on the outside network.)
14:05 eli: (And now I really have to run.)
14:05 samth: ok
14:05 jonrafkind: seems to work for me
14:05 jonrafkind: git that is
14:06 samth: fixed it -- my network connection was doing the wrong thing
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14:50 toastbrot: hey guys. im new to this. i installed drracket a couple hours ago. im runnin ubuntu 11.10 with gnome 3. if i start ddracket im gettin a wrong GUI in drracket. the console says "Gdk: IA__gdk_window_thaw_updates: assertion `impl_window->update_freeze_count > 0' failed
14:50 toastbrot: ". i made a screenshot, so you can see what i mean. http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7963/bildschirmfotoam2011101c.png any ideas?
14:52 toastbrot: drracket works fine. there are also dropdownmenus if i click on the space where the buttons should be.
14:52 mithos28: There is a known bug with gnome 3.
14:52 mithos28: It is fixed in the nightlies, and will be in the release coming out soon.
14:53 toastbrot: awesome, thank you!
14:53 mithos28: you can try downloading the nightly at http://pre.racket-lang.org/installers/
14:54 mithos28: actually the nightly might not have it yet, as I think it was fixed in the past day or so
14:54 mithos28: and the nightly looks like it was built on saturday
14:55 mithos28: so you might have to build from source
15:00 toastbrot: okay. gonna try this. thank you!
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16:16 dsrguru: hey guys, I'm having trouble using syntax-case recursively
16:16 dsrguru: for example,
16:16 dsrguru: (define-syntax (f stx)
16:16 dsrguru: (syntax-case stx ()
16:17 dsrguru: ((_) #'())
16:17 dsrguru: (_ arg1 ...) (#'(cons arg1 (f ...)))))
16:17 dsrguru: produces an error
16:18 dsrguru: syntax: missing ellipses with pattern variable in template in: arg1
16:19 dsrguru: oh cons should be inside the parens after (syntax-case stx
16:19 dsrguru: but same error
16:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/miJZmA
16:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fixed a typo (syntax-quote => quote-syntax). - Carl Eastlund
16:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Made constructed planet links force the minor version for more reliable self-reference. - Carl Eastlund
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16:24 _p4bl0: dsrguru: the ... are associated with arg1, to do what you want you need to change your last clause to "((_ arg1 arg2 ...) #'(cons arg1 (f arg2 ...)))", and surely you need to add an additionnal case for when there's only one arg
16:24 mithos28: do you want this? ((_ arg1 arg2 ...) #'(cons arg1 (f arg2...)))
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16:25 dsrguru: ah I didn't realize the elipsis is associated with the identifier before it
16:25 dsrguru: thanks
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16:43 tonyg: hmm. calling (make-async-channel) is *EXPENSIVE*
16:44 tonyg: I get a rate of ~7kHz on my macbook air
16:46 tonyg: from this: (time (let loop ((n 10000)) (when (positive? n) (make-async-channel) (loop (- n 1)))))
16:46 tonyg: Replacing (make-async-channel) with (cons 1 2) makes it take no time at all practically
16:48 samth: that surprises me
16:49 mithos28: as i remember an async-channel is a thread, with its thread mailbox as the queue
16:49 tonyg: whoa, ok
16:49 tonyg: that's ... intense
16:49 tonyg: i'll take a look at the impl
16:50 mithos28: and I would look at the bytecode for the cons example, it could be optimized to nothing
16:50 tonyg: yep, i'm guessing it was inlined away
16:50 samth: tonyg: mithos28 is almost certainly right about cons
16:51 tonyg: allocating a struct get a rate in the MHz, but becomes measurable
16:53 tauntaun: Any particular reason why Racket doesn't offer multimethods?
16:54 _p4bl0: tauntaun: swindle may have this, I guess
16:54 _p4bl0: tauntaun: (it's a CLOS-like system)
16:55 tauntaun: _p4b0: I've used Swindle, but I get the sense that it's not close to the Racket "core" (?).
16:56 tauntaun: e.g., multimethods aren't mentioned in the Reference.
16:56 _p4bl0: tauntaun: dunno, I never used it, but eli should be able to answer you if he's here
16:58 tauntaun: _P4bl0: I know, and I knew Eli while he was developing Swindle.  But my question is rather larger: is there any particular reason that PLT doesn't emphasize multimethods?
16:58 _p4bl0: tauntaun: ah okay, I can't help you with this question, sorry :-)
17:01 mithos28: tauntaun: do you mean in the class/object system, or at a lower level than that?
17:02 tauntaun: mithos28: AFAICT, Racket's object system is straight OOP, not multimethods.
17:08 mithos28: right, but I was asking whether you wanted to know why they wern't in the object system or a lower level?
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17:13 tauntaun: mithos27: I'm not sure I'm understanding you, but FWIW I was thinking multimethods might be at the same level as the object system, but not part of it.  (Make sense?)
17:17 mithos28: then couldn't you take the fine scheme tradition and roll your own? I have no experience with them, but my experience with OO is that it is a ton of hassle, when other solutions exist. What problem would adding multimethods solve?
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17:30 tonyg: In racket, are threads garbage collected when they deadlock?
17:30 tonyg: e.g. (let ((c (make-channel))) (thread (lambda () (channel-put c 1))))
17:31 mithos28: tonyg: I think so
17:31 tonyg: good. thanks!
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17:36 samth: tauntaun: mostly because it's hard to make them work without serious scary mutation
17:38 tonyg: samth: oh that's interesting. multimethods really are kind of antimodular.
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17:51 mye: do you think the #lang racket syntax is a hindrance to its widespread adoption? Is "no fights about syntax" essential for (racket) language design?
17:53 bremner: mye: adoption of what by whom?
17:55 mye: by, e.g. some rubyist I show code, he says, eww, that's Lisp. I say: no it's racket.
17:56 mye: But the thing is they think it's an outrage to use parens
17:56 mye: I wonder why there is no alternative to #lang rackets syntax with e.g. sweet expressions
17:57 mye: How hard would it be to create #lang racket-sweet?
17:57 mye: I could then tell them, here use this it's also racket.
17:58 mithos28: I think someone made a sweet-expression #lang mixin
17:59 mithos28: #lang planet asumu/sweet racket
18:00 bremner: it's probably waste of time talking to people who think parens are an outrage ;)
18:00 dnolen: mye: I find that syntax complaints are most often put forth by those who haven't spent any serious amounts of time in many different languages.
18:01 dnolen: people who have written in anger in languages that use C syntax, Prolog syntax, Lisp syntax, whitespace sensitive syntax have more reasonable opinions about the matter
18:01 mithos28: mye: this thread was on sweet expressions in July, http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2011-July/046714.html, where they were discussed
18:01 dnolen: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/asumu/sweet.plt/1/1/planet-docs/sweet/index.html
18:01 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3ox8co8
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18:02 mye: mithos28: ah, I was on holiday in July, still catching up on the list, thx
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18:06 bremner: that looks kinda cool.
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19:04 (part) haruki_zaemon: "Laterz"
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19:15 jonrafkind: eli, you didn't mention yield in your syntax parameter paper!
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20:42 asumu: tonyg: re: multimethods, it would be interesting to come up with a modular multimethods. I think some work by Robby and Matthew suggests a way to do this.
20:42 asumu: (see http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/icfp98-ff/paper.shtml)
20:44 asumu: I believe Fortress has a design for multimethods that has some kind of modularity too, though it might be "stick all methods in the scope of the generic function"
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22:26 dingfeng: Hiiii
22:27 dingfeng: Can i run racket repl on android?
22:32 offby1: nope
22:33 offby1: although Danny Yoo is working on a system (called "Moby", maybe?) that'll let you compile Scheme to .apk files
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22:37 dingfeng: Oh. I wanted to code on my mobile or tablet. hrm.
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22:39 offby1: I suspect that's mostly hard
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22:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Raw0Sg
22:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix a marshaling bug for syntax objects - Matthew Flatt
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