00:04 (join) jeapostrophe
00:12 (quit) jeapostrophe: Quit: jeapostrophe
00:36 (quit) cb`: Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)
01:03 (nick) zakwilson_ -> zakwilson
01:22 (quit) martinhex: Excess Flood
01:23 (join) martinhex
01:49 (quit) lvilnis: Ping timeout: 250 seconds
02:08 (join) neilv
02:17 (quit) dnolen: Quit: dnolen
02:29 (quit) realitygrill: Quit: realitygrill
02:33 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
02:44 (join) realitygrill
03:42 (join) hkBst
04:06 (join) noelw
04:15 (quit) realitygrill: Quit: realitygrill
04:16 (join) masm
05:04 (quit) neilv: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
05:14 (join) mceier
05:16 (quit) mceier: Client Quit
05:32 (join) tfb
06:11 (join) mceier
06:12 (join) Flatlander
06:25 (quit) DGASAU: Remote host closed the connection
06:26 (join) Burlingk
06:26 (join) DGASAU
06:29 (quit) Burlingk: Read error: Connection reset by peer
06:38 (join) Burlingk
06:39 Burlingk: Experiencing strangness:  (cdr ('hey 'test2 'test3 'test4))    gives an error message saying that a procedure was expected, but hey was given. ^^
06:39 noelw: you're missing a quote on that list
06:39 noelw: '(hey test2 test3 test4)
06:39 Burlingk: I thought that the ' had to go before the string atoms. ^^
06:40 noelw: or (list 'hey 'test2' test3 'test4)
06:40 noelw: 'hey is a symbol
06:40 Burlingk: I see.   O.o I Was trying to work through "The Little Schemer" and the code in the book is a bit different. :)
06:40 Burlingk even told the language to do R5RS since the book is a little bit older. ^^;
06:41 Burlingk: :-) I know this is probably obvious at this point, but total newbie here. ^_^
06:42 Burlingk: So, anything that has changed since the book was written will probably confuse me at first.  Thanks! O.o
06:42 noelw: Quoting has been fairly standard for a while
06:42 noelw: so there probably isn't an issue there
06:43 noelw: but quoting is quite complex
06:43 noelw: try '('hey) for example
06:59 Burlingk: :) Stuff works now. ^_^ hehehe
07:30 (join) jeapostrophe
07:32 (join) MayDaniel
08:12 (join) RacketCommitBot
08:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/QWZ33g
08:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add test cases for old file 2htdp/image file formats - Robby Findler
08:12 (part) RacketCommitBot
08:47 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer
08:51 (part) Flatlander: "Ex-Chat"
09:07 (quit) jeapostrophe: Quit: jeapostrophe
09:55 (join) dnolen
10:04 (quit) hkBst: Remote host closed the connection
10:08 danking: I want a macro to be available at macro expansion time. How do I do this? https://gist.github.com/1165217
10:08 danking: Can it be done in one file?
10:11 noelw: In your gist you've defined symbol-append as a macro
10:11 noelw: when it could just be a function
10:11 noelw: to make the function available to macros, use define-for-syntax
10:11 noelw: Is that the issue?
10:12 (quit) Fulax: Quit: This server is shuting down. Might be back in a few weeks.
10:12 danking: noelw: Yeah, I'm using a function definition which uses apply, but I'm curious if I had something that really was a macro, how would I do that?
10:15 noelw: I'm not sure.
10:15 noelw: Memory is hazy on this point.
10:15 noelw: Either you can, or you can't ;-P
10:15 (join) jeapostrophe
10:16 noelw: Perhaps someone else can remember the details on mutually recursive macros
10:16 noelw: ?
10:17 danking: hmm
10:32 (join) anRch
10:37 (quit) anRch: Read error: Connection reset by peer
10:37 (join) anRch
10:49 (join) lvilnis
10:49 (part) lvilnis
10:53 (quit) dnolen: Quit: dnolen
10:55 (nick) samth_away -> samth
10:59 (join) capivara
11:03 (join) jonrafkind
11:09 (quit) capivara: Quit: capivara
11:29 (join) dnolen
11:30 (quit) dnolen: Client Quit
11:31 samth: danking: there's no `define-syntax-for-syntax', so you have to put the macro in a separate file and use (require (for-syntax ...))
11:37 danking: samth: :(
11:38 samth: yeah, it's been something i've wanted for a while, but it isn't really so bad
11:38 samth: alternatively, you can use internal `define-syntax' inside the body of the other macro
11:38 samth: if you only want it for the one macro
11:40 danking: samth: What about multiple modules in one file? I feel like I've noticed that this would be useful on more than one occasion.
11:52 (quit) tfb: Quit: sleeping
11:54 (quit) anRch: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
11:57 samth: danking: you can do that, but you basically never want to -- it doesn't play nice with the default way of finding modules
11:59 (join) anRch
12:19 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch
12:21 (join) RacketCommitBot
12:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/9EWw_Q
12:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Typo fixes, thanks to David Van Horn. - Eli Barzilay
12:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Some more ;-ized printouts. - Eli Barzilay
12:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Use (here-namespace) for autoloads, (not `hidden-namespace' which is more of a user workspace thing). - Eli Barzilay
12:21 (part) RacketCommitBot
12:23 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
12:24 (join) dnolen
12:35 (join) MayDaniel
12:42 (quit) samth: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
12:42 (join) samth
12:42 (quit) mceier: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
12:42 (join) mceier
12:43 (quit) rapacity: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
12:43 (join) rapacity_
12:44 (quit) mario-goulart: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
12:49 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer
13:00 (join) mario-goulart
13:38 (quit) askhader: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
13:39 (join) askhader
13:45 (quit) Burlingk: Quit: Leaving
14:07 (join) jonrafkind
14:36 (join) penryu
14:40 penryu: I was told printf is preferable to display. however, if I were to use printf, my format string would simply be "~a"
14:41 penryu: is there still an advantage to printf in this case, or should I shelve it for more complex tasks?
14:49 (join) realitygrill
14:50 (join) anRch
14:57 (nick) penryu -> stderr-_-
14:57 (nick) stderr-_- -> penryu
15:02 (join) turbofail
15:03 (nick) samth -> samth_away
15:10 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch
15:10 jonrafkind: penryu, do you usually do (display x)(newline) ?
15:14 (quit) jonrafkind: Quit: Ex-Chat
15:14 (join) jonrafkind
15:15 (join) shofetim
15:21 penryu: jonrafkind: no. in this case, the output already has a "\n" appended, so I don't have to.
15:21 jonrafkind: oh, then i guess display is fine
15:21 penryu: "usually" might be misleading, as this is actually my first script.
15:21 jonrafkind: btw if you can't discern whats "better" then just do whatever you want, don't listen to common wisdom (and im not joking)
15:22 jonrafkind: eventually you may decide one is better after getting experience
15:22 penryu: that makes sense.
15:22 jonrafkind: imo printf is usualy better because you can do more things with it, but in your case it provides no benefit at all
15:23 penryu: yeah. I can see printf clearly being superior to the (display)(newline) idiom
15:24 jonrafkind: right
15:50 danking: This seems relevant to not following common wisdom: http://aberant.tumblr.com/post/167375099/a-letter-from-why .
15:50 danking: It was on HN today.
15:53 (join) lucian
15:55 penryu: heh. he came up at a local UG meeting last night.
16:01 jonrafkind: you mean you were discussing him or he showed up?
16:01 danking: I presume the former.
16:01 penryu: we had a new coder interested in ruby. the obligatory link to _why's poignant guide was regurgitated.
16:02 penryu: if he'd shown up, HN would have linked to MY blahg post
16:02 danking: penryu: Was this a Ruby user group?
16:02 jonrafkind: ruby people are strange
16:02 penryu: danking: it was
16:03 (join) RacketCommitBot
16:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/CAJYsA
16:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Change cpointer tag to be a symbol - Kevin Tew
16:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] send ffi pointers across places - Kevin Tew
16:03 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] docs cpointers over place-channels - Kevin Tew
16:03 (part) RacketCommitBot
16:03 penryu: also, the only tech UG in town I still attend.
16:05 penryu: not a lot to chose from in Reno, NV, tbh.
16:05 danking: I should probably branch out from the Lisp user group here in Boston seeing as they haven't met in a year.
16:06 penryu: hah. such was the fate of Reno's Linux UG.
16:09 penryu: feeling increasingly distant from ruby in general, as it's gone almost entirely to webdev-types; hence my branching into FP
16:10 penryu: alas, ruby is the only programming UG in town. even the local ACM chapter at the uni talks mostly about C#.Net, emphasis on .Net.
16:10 jonrafkind: someone on HN said ruby is the new php :p
16:11 penryu: I've said that.
16:11 penryu: once Rails hit big.
16:11 jonrafkind: someday racket can achieve such a status
16:11 penryu: before that it was a fun little GP language.
16:12 jonrafkind: ruby's syntax + racket semantics would be good I think, well maybe leave out tail call optimization
16:12 penryu: why no TCO?
16:13 jonrafkind: stack traces get fubared
16:13 penryu: ahh
16:14 lucian: at ruby is nowhere near as braindead as php
16:14 danking: penryu: I interned at Intuit and they still power their build system with Ruby.
16:14 lucian: at least
16:15 lucian: clojure's getting used in interesting places
16:15 penryu: yeah, I had fun using ruby for shell scripting and small apps. then Rails hit and the lists were barraged with lapsed PHPers
16:16 lucian shrugs
16:16 lucian: ruby is a nice language overall, php is just a clusterfuck
16:16 penryu: ^^^^ amen
16:16 danking: Ruby's got lots of nice features. I just hate using it _with_ other people. It's so easy for someone to write shit code.
16:17 lucian: danking: i find that a weak argument
16:17 danking: Of course, that's probably true of most languages with "nice features"
16:17 lucian: i've seen shit code everywhere, even in python
16:17 jonrafkind: that never does seem to be a design goal of any language -- cooperating with teams of people
16:17 jonrafkind: probably that and security are needed to be designed into languages before CS can be considered "mature"
16:18 danking: lucian: I've never seen a Java program which used method_missing instead of using fields. However, I agree this is a crappy argument. The real question is how shit code like that was accepted into the repositories.
16:22 lucian: danking: one could argue that average java *has* to be shit out of necessity
16:22 lucian: i don't really see how a language could enforce good style, beyond what something like Python does (semi-enforce indentation and strong culture of clean code)
16:23 penryu: heard the other day: "Python is a functional programming language with OO features added on"
16:24 penryu: having used python in the early 2.x days, I found that pretty funny.
16:25 lucian: its OOP features are somewhat functional, so the quite isn't far wrong
16:25 asumu: It's funny considering its lambda is crippled.
16:25 danking: And the recursion limitation.
16:25 penryu: also, I thought lambda was a recent addition
16:25 jonrafkind: and lexical scoping is also crippled
16:26 lucian: jonrafkind: not really, it just defaults differently
16:26 lucian: lambda is odd in python, there could be just a def expression
16:26 mario-goulart: lucian: in python < 3 you can't write variables in outter scopes.
16:26 jonrafkind: you can but only if they are arrays
16:27 lucian: mario-goulart: you can't shadow by default, yes
16:27 lucian: jonrafkind: and you're not rebinding lists, you're just mutating them
16:27 lucian: binding is different, mutation is the same
16:27 jonrafkind: what do you mean "by default" is there some way to shadow variables in python?
16:28 lucian: jonrafkind: yes, nonlocal (like global). but only in py3
16:28 asumu: Also, kinda late to this, but (display foo)(newline) is made unnecessary by (displayln foo)
16:28 jonrafkind: oh well.. python2 is still king so thats my definition of python
16:29 lucian: jonrafkind: sure, valid argument. but i use closures all the time, and the default binding doesn't bother me in practice (only very rarely)
16:30 lucian: my point about python's OO being a little functional is that methods are just attributes that happen to be functions
16:30 jonrafkind: fine, but it bothers me almost every time i use python
16:30 mario-goulart: OTOH, functions don't happen to be lambdas.
16:31 lucian: mario-goulart: they're not expressions, no. def bla(): is equivalent to bla = lambda: .., postulating a non-restricted lambda
16:31 penryu: mario-goulart: I heard about that distinction, but don't know the details.
16:32 lucian: but def bla():return 1 is identical to bla = lambda: 1
16:32 mario-goulart: lambdas can only contain expressions, not statements.
16:32 lucian nods
16:32 asumu: "Methods as functions" semantics can get you in trouble if your OO language has types though.
16:32 penryu: actually, that sounds a lot like the type v. class issue in the 1.x days.
16:33 lucian: it's quite odd if you ask me. i sometimes wish python's def worked like coffeescript's ->
16:33 penryu: leading to the eventual unification of types and classes.
16:33 danking: I really like the idea of giving better syntax to JavaScript.
16:34 penryu: javascript is a really cool little language cursed with java-ish syntax
16:34 lucian: penryu: and a ton of stupid caveats
16:34 lucian: coffeescript is great
16:34 asumu: Javascript should just be what's contained in "Javascript: The Good Parts"
16:35 asumu: + the other cool stuff people like samth are designing.
16:35 lucian: asumu: 'use strict'; almost is
16:35 lucian: it still has var and new, but otherwise much saner
16:36 penryu: funny. I keep mistaking "use strict"; for a docstring.
16:38 danking: More exciting, Firefox is supposedly building in support for "anything that compiles to JS" http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2503796
16:38 lucian: danking: yep. very cool
16:38 lucian: even clojurescript should become debuggable with that
16:39 danking: I'm excited for the day when I can write Racket for my web page and get reasonable error messages through my browser.
16:49 (join) jao
17:08 em: javascript is much harder to learn than Racket.
17:10 em: Racket is my first attempt at learning a programming language. The functional programming in Racket makes perfect sense. When you try to do the same things, with Racket habits in Javascript nothing quite works.
17:10 em: it's frustrating and confusing.
17:11 em: javascript does have this object stuff that looks intriguing if i can figure that out.
17:27 lucian: em: perhaps because i have a different background, i struggled a little with "the little schemer"
17:27 lucian: em: after you grok JS, try out CoffeeScript
17:31 (quit) lucian: Quit: sleep
17:49 dwaynecrooks: hi all, inspired by http://hashcollision.org/brainfudge/index.html i decided to check out the language building capabilities of racket a bit more... i'm working on an implementation of herbert (an imagine cup puzzle game)... you can check out the code here https://github.com/dwayne/herbert
17:55 (join) sethalves
18:01 (quit) jeapostrophe: Quit: jeapostrophe
18:44 jamessan: hmm, racket won't build on a powerpc G5 system (using cgc) unless I use -DMZ_DONT_USE_JIT.  it builds just fine on a powerpc G4 without needing to specify -DMZ_DONT_USE_JIT
18:44 jonrafkind: can you post the error to the list
18:47 jamessan: sure
18:57 (quit) dnolen: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
19:11 (join) jeapostrophe
19:11 (quit) jeapostrophe: Client Quit
19:45 (join) dnolen
19:49 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving
19:53 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
19:57 (join) RacketCommitBot
19:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/OWUVKA
19:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix bug in the loading of non-alpha bitmaps (also: minor Rackety) - Robby Findler
19:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] speed up bitmap rotation (could probably revisit this to - Robby Findler
19:57 (part) RacketCommitBot
20:01 (part) penryu: "WeeChat 0.3.5"
20:46 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
21:04 (quit) dnolen: Quit: dnolen
21:49 (quit) turbofail: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
21:52 (join) jeapostrophe
22:09 (join) dnolen
22:14 (join) neilv
22:20 (quit) shofetim: Remote host closed the connection
22:33 (quit) jeapostrophe: Quit: jeapostrophe
23:12 neilv looks at syntax/parse
23:31 (join) jonrafkind