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05:20 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
05:20 (names) -: gabot jekor stamourv danking stchang soegaard DGASAU samth_away martinhex si14 ohwow_ Lajla ohwow jamessan Demosthenes Lycurgus snorble rapacity Utkarsh blomqvist dsp_ tunes tomku clklein mooglenorph stride zakwilson mario-goulart asumu rudybot ozzloy offby1 shachaf elliottcable bohanlon em svk_ tauntaun drhodes Twey cipher tewk cky janne gf3 hyko fmu ve askhader _p4bl0 mattmight @ChanServ tonyg
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05:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/p3M2Ve
05:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Changes example from arithmetic to pairs - Casey Klein
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10:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/nWsze5
10:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix bug in keyword-argument calls - Matthew Flatt
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11:32 clklein: samth: Can you point me at the example that motivated reduction relations with ordered cases?
11:32 samth: clklein: one sec
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11:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/q1vKir
11:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Use syntax-track-origin more pervasively to get the right arrows in check syntax. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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11:46 samth: clklein: the original motivating example is lost to the mists of refactoring
11:46 samth: here's an example, though: https://github.com/samth/var/blob/master/step.rkt#L252
11:46 clklein: OK, any will do
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11:49 clklein: samth: thanks
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12:03 clklein: samth: Have you seen cases where this kind of refactoring would be too painful? http://paste.lisp.org/display/123991
12:04 samth: clklein: i think it's way too painful in that case
12:04 samth: i would never write the code that way; i'd just add side conditions
12:06 clklein: seems less painful to me
12:06 clklein: and less copied code :)
12:06 clklein: I'd use a meaningful name for RHS if I had any idea what it was doing.
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12:10 dyoo: Macro question: within the context of a macro's body, I want to be able to emit something to the toplevel context, something like mzscheme's begin-lifted, I think.  Is there a good way to do this in Racket?
12:11 dyoo: specifically, I'm trying to use (begin-for-syntax), but my macro is being used in expression position.
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12:24 ohwow: http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/sw2003/Unwind.pdf found this in the mailing list, kinda interesting i should say
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13:20 asumu: clklein: While we're giving you Redex ideas, would it be possible to make side-conditions have an optional failure term?
13:21 asumu: (e.g. to make reduction to errors easier)
13:22 asumu: Though maybe from a type-setting point of view that doesn't make much sense though.
13:24 clklein: asumu: I don't know what you mean.
13:25 clklein: If a term matches the LHS but fails the side-condition, then the term reduces to somethign specified along side the side-condition?
13:25 asumu: Right, so I could put several of these side-conditions (w/alternates) to specify all the error cases for a particular pattern.
13:26 clklein: ahh
13:27 clklein: I'm generally reluctant to add anything that doesn't correspond to standard pencil-and-paper notation.
13:27 clklein: But I'll think about it more. I need to go to a meeting now.
13:27 asumu: Right, I see what you mean. It looks more like reduction semantics when you specify all the cases.
13:27 asumu: Okay, cya.
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13:56 samth: clklein: i'd never write it the metafunction-way on paper
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14:29 dsrguru: in cases where tail recursion on a list requires a reverse call afterwards, would body recursion have the same cpu and space complexity as calling reverse on the result of tail recursion?
14:29 askhader: dsrguru: I'm sure you know how to find out trivially.
14:30 askhader: But it will ultimately depend upon what reverse is doing
14:31 dsrguru: do you mean it depends on how racket's reverse procedure is implemented?
14:31 askhader: I believe so.
14:31 dsrguru: I guess I'll test both ways
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14:32 askhader: Also, how are you gauging cpu complexity?
14:32 dsrguru: I guess I was wondering more if one way was much more idiomatic in racket than the other
14:33 dsrguru: if their big O values only differ by a constant factor, then which has the smaller factor
14:33 dsrguru: as in just which runs in less time
14:33 askhader: Oh
14:33 askhader: Then they're the same at worst.
14:33 samth: it tends to be faster to do the non-tail-recursion in racket
14:33 samth: b/c racket is fast at traversing the stack
14:34 askhader: dsrguru: I say that knowing very little about racket implementations.
14:34 dsrguru: samth: thanks
14:34 askhader: I thought tail-call optimization was racket's bread and butter.
14:34 askhader: Perhaps that was r5rs
14:35 dsrguru: askhader: well the issue here is whether TCO saves more time than reversing the list
14:37 dsrguru: samth: would it be correct to assume that racket's looping constructs like for are equivalent to reversing the result of tail recursion?
14:38 dsrguru: samth: and if so, that body recursion would outperform said looping constructs
14:41 samth: askhader: racket certainly performs proper tail-calls
14:41 samth: but that's a question of space, not time
14:41 samth: dsrguru: `for/list' does do the cons/reverse
14:42 samth: as to what's faster, i've seen hand-coded loops be faster than `for', but i'd test the particular case myself
14:43 dsrguru: all right thanks
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15:24 ChibaPet: yes
15:36 ohwow_: What does `fluid' mean in this context: http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/sw2003/Unwind.pdf ?
15:41 samth: ohwow_: fluids are variables that change their value for a particular well-defined region
15:41 samth: ohwow_: they're like parameters
15:42 ohwow_: I see, thanks
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16:57 jonrafkind: how do you write a literal | symbol
16:59 ohwow_: huh?
16:59 jonrafkind: | is used as a special character to delimit symbols that can't normally be written
17:00 jonrafkind: like '| | is the literal space symbol
17:01 samth: rudybot: eval (define \| 1)
17:01 rudybot: samth: Done.
17:01 samth: rudybot: eval \|
17:01 rudybot: samth: ; Value: 1
17:01 samth: jonrafkind: as above
17:02 jonrafkind: word
17:02 jonrafkind: rudybot: eval '\|
17:02 rudybot: jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready
17:02 rudybot: jonrafkind: ; Value: \|
17:02 jonrafkind: shouldnt it print just | ?
17:03 jonrafkind: ah i guess it always prints the \
17:03 ohwow_: rudybot: eval '|
17:03 rudybot: ohwow_: your sandbox is ready
17:03 rudybot: ohwow_: error: eval:1:1: read: unbalanced `|'
17:03 ohwow_: rudybot: eval '|\||
17:03 rudybot: ohwow_: error: eval:1:4: read: unbalanced `|'
17:03 ohwow_: rudybot: eval '||\|
17:03 rudybot: ohwow_: ; Value: \|
17:04 ohwow_: rudybot: eval (string->symbol "|")
17:04 rudybot: ohwow_: ; Value: \|
17:04 ohwow_: yeah
17:10 tauntaun: thunk/c is still in unstable.  Any recommendations for an alternative?
17:13 tauntaun: Ah, I assume I should just use (-> any).
17:14 stamourv: tauntaun: That should work.
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17:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/okoAKx
17:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] use brackets to do list lookup instead of using dot - Jon Rafkind
17:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] add structs and use . to lookup the field names in a struct instance - Jon Rafkind
17:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] add flow operator which composes functions from right to left - Jon Rafkind
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19:00 tauntaun: Racket has met its nemesis.  It's called "Wilfred".
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19:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/qnDHJo
19:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] detect __sync_bool_compare_and_swap() via `configure' - Matthew Flatt
19:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `refresh' on `window<%>'s other than `canvas%'s - Matthew Flatt
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19:24 ohwow_: chat
19:24 ohwow_: s
19:24 ohwow_: hello :)
19:27 (nick) emma -> em
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19:48 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/rnGUBX
19:48 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Better randomization of poll dates -- multiply the range by a factor of 1..2. - Eli Barzilay
19:48 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add an email alert whenever an ok mirror link changed to being omitted. - Eli Barzilay
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19:51 eli: tauntaun: wilfred?
19:57 tauntaun: eli: What, you don't watch FX? :)
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19:58 eli: tauntaun: No tv...  But I saw it on hulu...  How is it related to racket?
19:59 tauntaun groans.
19:59 tauntaun: It's just a joke.  Nobody gets my jokes!
19:59 jonrafkind: the tennis player?
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20:09 soegaard: Okay. I'll bite. Which tennis player is a joke?
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20:30 offby1 doesn't get the "Wilfred" joke, either :-|
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20:38 tauntaun feels so "in" right now.
20:55 ohwow_: hm
20:55 ohwow_: to my knowledge Wilfred is the name of the comedy tv show
20:55 ohwow_: on australian and american tv
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