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08:58 racket: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/oZBP9P
08:58 racket: [racket/master] fix missing argument to format - Robby Findler
08:58 racket: [racket/master] fixed up contract test suite - Robby Findler
08:58 racket: [racket/master] improved opt/c so that it knows about chaperones - Robby Findler
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10:03 danking: eli: thanks
10:08 danking: eli: Could the `set' datatype be paramaterized in a similar way? I wrote some procedures to do intersection, difference, etc. because I wanted set whose elements' were pairs and I only wanted the `car' used for equivalence testing.
10:08 danking: s/set whose elements'/sets whose elements/
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11:08 stamourv: danking: +1. That would be nice.
11:09 stamourv: In the meantime, srfi/1's lset functions can do that.
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11:09 racket: [racket] plt pushed 6 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/nHHMmi
11:09 racket: [racket/master] unstable/gui/ppict: add ppict-add* - Ryan Culpepper
11:09 racket: [racket/master] added unstable/gui/blur - Ryan Culpepper
11:09 racket: [racket/master] added unstable/future - Ryan Culpepper
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11:28 danking: stamourv: Hmm. I looked at srfi/1 just now, but I don't see how the lset functions can be parameterized over equivalence. It seems like they use whatever definition of eq? is available in the environment of srfi/1. Also, srfi/1 warns that they run in O(n*m). If your set elements can be ordered, then you can implement intersection, et etc. in (n log n + m log m + n + m).
11:29 danking: So I did just that and parameterized my set functions over an equivalence operator and a comparison operator.
11:30 danking: I think, if I use Typed Racket, I could have a "Sorted-Set" type so that I only resort the elements if the set has fallen out of order.
11:30 stamourv: The lset functions take the comparison function as their first argument.
11:31 stamourv: You do have to pass it as an argument to each call, though, which is a bit annoying.
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11:31 danking: stamourv: Ah. I see. I was reading that equals as formatting for lset-union is ...  I can be quite blind sometimes.
11:31 stamourv: As for a `Sorted-Set' type, you'd have to enforce the order yourself, the type system can't express that.
11:33 stamourv: And unless performance/complexity is your main requirement, I wouldn't worry about it for now, and just go with srfi/1.
11:33 danking: stamourv: Right, but I could use the type system to mark a set as unsorted so I only had to resort when necessary. e.g. set-add : (OR Sorted-Set Unsorted-Set) -> Unsorted-Set; set-intersect : Sorted-Set -> Unsorted-Set
11:33 danking: err
11:33 stamourv: And, if you end up with something that's too slow, _and_ your profiler tells you that set operations are the problem, then go with custom sets.
11:33 danking: set-intersect : Sorted-Set -> Sorted-Set
11:34 stamourv: Yes, that would work.
11:34 stamourv: At least, if you have 2 different kinds of structs.
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11:41 stamourv: mithos28: readline-input::0: dtsi*: expected struct name at: pt in: (dtsi* () pt ((x : Real) (y : Real)))
11:41 stamourv: When doing ` (define-struct: pt ([x : Real] [y : Real]))' at the TR REPL.
11:41 stamourv: In a module, this works fine.
11:42 stamourv: Do you know if that has anything to do with your changes to struct handling?
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11:45 stamourv: jonrafkind: I've fixed the TR docs to start with a 2-argument example.
11:45 jonrafkind: nice
11:46 stamourv: In fact, it's basically tolgagoren's example.
11:46 stamourv: With a working type, though.
11:46 stamourv: You can't typecheck the distance function with a Fixnum type.
11:47 mithos28: stamourv: structs have had problems at the repl for a while
11:47 stamourv: Ok. I don't use them at the REPL all that often, so I didn't notice.
11:47 mithos28: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?debug=&database=default&cmd=view+audit-trail&cmd=view&pr=11669
11:47 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3d5xkez
11:48 stamourv: I should probably look at bug reports more often...
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11:54 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/oW2XPR
11:54 racket: [racket/master] Change a TR doc example to take two arguments. - Vincent St-Amour
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12:34 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/qiPFfe
12:34 racket: [racket/master] fix lazy stepper test - lazy-cond1 - Stephen Chang
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12:45 racket: [racket] plt pushed 9 new commits to release: http://bit.ly/ninzq2
12:45 racket: [racket/release] Add a new `#:dont-re-require-enter' flag for `enter!', to avoid - Eli Barzilay
12:45 racket: [racket/release] Fix a few framework contracts to match code - Asumu Takikawa
12:45 racket: [racket/release] Fix unbalanced curly brackets. - Vincent St-Amour
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13:56 stamourv: eli: I like the ,dr command in xrepl.
13:56 stamourv: But it would be even nicer if the DrRacket definitions window was populated with the definitions that were typed at the REPL.
13:57 stamourv: That seems to fit the use case of "I typed a bunch of stuff, now I want to run $DRRACKET_TOOL on it." pretty well.
13:58 stamourv: The other way around would be nice too, but probably less useful: having the definitions that were typed in DrRacket be available from the REPL.
14:02 eli: stamourv: That won't happen...
14:03 eli: It sounds like what you *really* want is some unification between the two REPLs.
14:03 eli: For example, type stuff at the drr window and use it on the REPL, and vice versa.
14:03 eli: But the two things work very differently.
14:03 stamourv: Even just the first part would be nice.
14:04 eli: For example -- which drr interactions should be connected to your REPL?
14:04 stamourv: And it sounds like it may be a matter of remembering what was typed at the REPL, and populating the definitions window with it.
14:04 eli: (Given that each window gets its own repl.)
14:04 stamourv: eli: Good point (multiple windows).
14:04 eli: How do you deal with random values -- like (random), (read), etc?
14:05 eli: What happens when you click "run" to reset the drr interactions?
14:05 eli: And probably a bunch more.
14:05 eli: The closest you can get to that is by entering a module.
14:05 stamourv: I guess that just transcribing the text of the definitions that were typed would probably work in 90% of the cases.
14:06 eli: (Well, that's solves just one problem out of many -- and they're all similarly hard.)
14:06 stamourv: At least for the use case of trying stuff out and then realizing that you want a specific DrRacket tool.
14:06 eli: Now, I *know* what you want to get, which is why I made that kind of equivalence easy:
14:06 eli: if you're inside a module (with ,enter) and run ,dr you get to edit the same file.
14:06 eli: Then you can reload it on the repl to work on it from both sides.
14:07 eli: I think that this is the best that you can get...
14:07 stamourv: Yes, but that doesn't help for quick experiments, which is what a lot of people use the REPL for.
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14:09 eli: stamourv: Something that *might* be closer to what you want is some way to "dump" the interactions into a scratch file.
14:09 eli: Probably something that starts with `#lang racket/load'.
14:09 stamourv: That's pretty much what I meant, except without an actual file backing it.
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14:09 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/oO40Su
14:09 racket: [racket/master] parse arguments. provide basic math operations - Jon Rafkind
14:09 (part) racket
14:10 eli: Adding a file will make things much easier.
14:10 eli: (Even if it's some temporary file.)
14:10 eli: In any case, it's still going to be hard.
14:10 stamourv: I guess somewhere in .racket is fair game.
14:10 eli: (I'd prefer some tmp file...)
14:10 eli: For example, what happens when you enter some module, switch to a different namespace, etc...
14:11 eli: If you have a solution for these things, feel free to hack it.
14:12 stamourv: I'm not looking for a solution to all that. A simple hack that records what you type, and as long as you're in the original namespace, just dumps that in DrRacket, that would do what I want.
14:12 eli: Personally, I doubt the utility of this thing, and compared to the huge problems that are involved it looks like it's not worth it.
14:12 eli: What happens when you do switch a namespace?  Should it start from scratch?
14:13 eli: What happens when you use ^ ^^ ^^^ etc?
14:13 stamourv: I mentioned a use case. I don't know if it actually matters in practice, but that sounded useful.
14:13 stamourv: I guess, a really hackish solution, if you do any of these, then you end up with an empty DrRacket.
14:14 eli: (You can't really know if ^ was used.)
14:14 stamourv: So, it would work in the easy cases, and give up if there's anything complicated to do.
14:14 stamourv: Can't you just record every line that was typed?
14:14 eli: I can, but ,commands are going to be useless in the file.
14:15 stamourv: Right, so just drop these from the log.
14:15 eli: Also, you need some way to communicate the initial module into the file.
14:15 stamourv: What do you mean?
14:15 eli: If you start with "racket -I typed/racket" you should get a file that works using that as the inital namespace.
14:16 stamourv: I see.
14:16 stamourv: Yeah, that's harder.
14:16 eli: Actually, given all of these, I think that what's *really* needed is something more low-level.
14:16 eli: Something like `#lang xrepl/session <initial-module>'
14:16 eli: and it would keep the input exactly as is -- in textual format.
14:17 stamourv: That sounds reasonable.
14:17 eli: Then you can record the whole session -- namespace switching, entering, whatever.
14:17 stamourv: And then, if you want to do anything fancier, you just edit the file in DrRacket, remove the irrelevant parts, etc.
14:17 eli: It should also have the meta ,commands available in the file, as well as in the drr interactions.
14:18 eli: Another thing that would be nice is some drr hook that detects when you run a file in that language,
14:18 eli: and in this case each interaction reading gets appended to the file.
14:18 stamourv: Heh, there's even a cute "migration path" story about this: try stuff out in the REPL, and when you've figured it out, export to DrRacket, clean it up, and tada! Here's your module.
14:19 eli: I'm not sure about that...
14:19 stamourv: Why not?
14:19 eli: The thing is that you'd need some potentially non-trivial editing there to get to something that's actually a module.
14:19 eli: That, of course, depends on how much debugging you did.
14:20 stamourv: Sure, but most of it is going to be pruning unsuccessful attempts, instead of rewriting or copy/pasting the final version from the REPL.
14:20 eli: But the good thing about it is that it removes the whole guess-what's-what part, and leaves the work for the enthusiastic user.
14:20 eli: Back to the hook to append stuff --
14:20 stamourv: And that still makes users' lives easier.
14:21 eli: that would be necessary, since if the default is to record the session, then when you run the resulting recorded session in drr, it will ... re-record itself.
14:21 stamourv: Good point.
14:21 eli: Also, once you start drr with a ,dr -- what happens when *that* line gets appended to your session and executed in drr...?
14:21 eli: If you're not careful you'll now have an infinite loop of drr windows popping up...
14:22 eli: (In a very reflectively amuzing way, of course.)
14:22 stamourv: You could probably turn it into a noop inside DrR.
14:22 eli: The same should happen with ,edit.
14:22 stamourv: Right.
14:22 eli: in any case, just take the above and synthesize a todo list,
14:23 eli: then implement this xrepl/session languange...
14:23 eli: If you do that, I'll figure something out for the recording part.
14:23 eli says, avoiding the actually hard work...
14:23 stamourv: I guess I'll have to figure out how xrepl works before that.
14:24 stamourv: I mean, I've glanced at the implementation a bit, but nothing more/
14:24 eli: The thing is that it hooks into `current-prompt-read', and that should somehow be translated to the current file.
14:25 jonrafkind: eli, can you make commands in xrepl use the shortest unique string?
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14:25 racket: [racket] plt pushed 6 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/n8FSK4
14:25 racket: [racket/master] Rename `prompt-shown' -> `zero-column!', and use it only in the - Eli Barzilay
14:25 racket: [racket/master] Use (banner) instead of a fixed "Welcome to Racket" in the More tutorial - Eli Barzilay
14:25 racket: [racket/master] Typo in the `errortrace' language description. - Eli Barzilay
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14:25 eli: jonrafkind: I did that in the distant past, but it didn't work out nicely.
14:25 jonrafkind: oh really? what was wrong with it?
14:26 eli: jonrafkind: IIRC, the thing that made it break was ,require vs ,require-reloadable
14:26 eli: Then I decided to have explicit aliases, like ,rr
14:26 eli: And mixing these with the shortest-match thing sounds dangerous.
14:26 jonrafkind: so anything shorter than "require" would match ,require and anything longer would match ,require-reloadable.. no?
14:27 jonrafkind: i mean my only issue is i dont like some of the aliases, can I make my own?
14:27 eli: Well, there's ,rr now for ,require-reloadable
14:27 eli: There's no way to add aliases.
14:27 eli: But that's only "yet".
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14:28 eli: There should obviously be some easy way to write your own commands.
14:28 jonrafkind: (define-xrepl-alias ...) something like that would be good
14:28 jonrafkind: or (define-xrepl-command ...)
14:28 eli: There should also be some ,set thing to tweak parameters, but there's only two that you'd want to.
14:28 eli: Which ones don't you like, or more importantly, which ones do you want to add?
14:29 jonrafkind: errt for errortrace
14:29 jonrafkind: also 'r' for requier
14:29 jonrafkind: h wait it is, sorry
14:29 eli: ?
14:30 jonrafkind: i mean i would use ,er for errortrace
14:30 eli scratches head
14:31 jonrafkind: right now errortrace is ,errt
14:31 jonrafkind: ,er is unknown command
14:33 eli: jonrafkind: Here's a quick example for adding a command:
14:33 eli: http://tmp.barzilay.org/doc/xrepl/index.html#(part._.Hacking_.X.R.E.P.L)
14:34 eli: Not too useful without a way to record it, of course.
14:34 jonrafkind: right
14:34 eli: And you need to know about the implementation too.
14:34 eli: But all of that should come later.
14:35 jonrafkind: can I ask why you didn't name the collection 'extended-repl' ?
14:35 danking: eli: Is that a new experimental repl that you're working on? I don't see it in the normal docs.
14:36 eli: danking: Committed in the master and will be included in the release.
14:36 eli: I finished the docs right now, so it's not in the nightly build, still.
14:36 eli: jonrafkind: That's easy -- it's to make you ask this question.
14:37 jonrafkind: success!
14:37 jonrafkind: i guess its to make typing 'racket -il xrepl' easy, but i just put (require xrepl) in my ~/.racketrc
14:38 eli: Easy was one consideration; another is [dramatic drum roll] that names are important, and "extended repl" is a description, not a name [cymbals].
14:40 carleastlund: Heh.  It's not every day I see a (Listof 'cymbals).
14:40 eli isn't speaking clojure...
14:41 carleastlund: I'm not either, I'm speaking TR.
14:42 jonrafkind: my vocabulary is already at its limit. apparently i only know 21k english words (according to some stupid web survey), so adding new names is always a challenge
14:42 eli: carleastlund: In that case you mean (List 'cymbals), not (Listof 'cymbals)...
14:43 carleastlund: eli: Both types apply.
14:43 eli: jonrafkind: Just replace "PLT Scheme" with "Racket", and you'll save a slot.
14:44 eli: carleastlund: Yeah, but I didn't specify a type, so you get the default.
14:44 carleastlund: (a) I'm not "getting" anything, I'm supplying the type myself, you say me do it, and (b) that ruins the pun.
14:44 danking: eli: Is xrepl maybe, someday, going to have scheme48 style push'ing and pop'ing and error recovery?
14:45 carleastlund: saw*
14:45 eli: carleastlund: Ruining puns is a special skill I have...
14:46 eli: danking: No -- the problem is that some Racket exceptions have only an escape continuation in them, so you can't jump back into it.  But most exceptions don't even have that.
14:49 eli: jonrafkind: http://tmp.barzilay.org/x
14:49 eli: That looks a bit much to include in the docs though.
14:51 eli: jonrafkind: More specifically, the `run-command' thing is a hack, since it leaves the argument reading for the errortrace command.  To make this proper, there should be some protocol for reading input.  But that will take more hacking.
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14:54 danking: eli: :/ That's too bad.  Is this non-compatibility with scheme48-esque error recovery something fairly deeply ingrained in Racket?
15:03 eli: danking: Yes.
15:04 eli: danking: For example, there's an `uncaught-exception-handler' which is in charge of dealing with exceptions that are not caught by `with-handlers' etc.
15:04 eli: Usually, it prints the error message and escapes back to the repl.
15:04 eli: But it's actually required to do this escaping -- for example:
15:05 eli: -> (uncaught-exception-handler void)
15:05 eli: -> (+ 1 "2")
15:05 eli: handler for uncaught exceptions: did not escape; original exception raised: +: expects type <number> as 2nd argument, given: "2"; other arguments were: 1
15:05 eli: So a change that will accomodate that ability goes straight to the core implementation.
15:06 eli: And my guess is that it will be very hard to convince people that it's a good idea.
15:06 eli: (For example, you could get a hold of an internal continuation this way, and get all kinds of breakages.)
15:06 danking: Hmm.
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15:40 racket: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/nWquFP
15:40 racket: [racket/master] Add an example for extending xrepl, the very stupid way. - Eli Barzilay
15:40 racket: [racket/master] Add $F for ,sh commands. - Eli Barzilay
15:40 racket: [racket/master] Fix reading a 'line argument: always succeeds and returns the line as-is. - Eli Barzilay
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18:15 racket: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/oLOMil
18:15 racket: [racket/master] Fix internal error message. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
18:15 racket: [racket/master] Strengthen contracts to require syntax lists. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
18:15 racket: [racket/master] Fix Typed Racket handling of exception handling with multiple return values. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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21:27 (nick) elliottcable -> ec|fkn_away_nick
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21:36 tzhuang: hey guys
21:37 tzhuang: if im using the racket repl from command line
21:37 tzhuang: is the only way to reload definitions to restart racket?
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21:52 Daemmerung: `enter!' should reload any defns
21:52 Daemmerung: rudybot: doc enter!
21:52 rudybot: Daemmerung: your sandbox is ready
21:52 rudybot: Daemmerung: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: racket/enter, racket/init
22:00 offby1: doc fix
22:29 (join) racket
22:29 racket: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/oIfAqa
22:29 racket: [racket/master] typo - Matthew Flatt
22:29 racket: [racket/master] gtk: `get-display-size' reports main monitor only - Matthew Flatt
22:29 racket: [racket/master] add `get-display-count' and #:screen argument to `get-display-size' - Matthew Flatt
22:29 (part) racket
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22:40 tzhuang: Daemmerung: thx!
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23:10 Daemmerung is agog at mflatt's speedy multi-platform solution, cannot speak