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09:02 sheikra: There seems to be a bug in foldl in the standard library. (foldl (lambda (x y) x) 0 '(1 2 3 4)) gives the result 4...
09:10 rapacity: sheikra: how is that a bug?
09:10 sheikra: rapacity: shouldn't it be 0?
09:11 rapacity: the foldl in the standard library has the element and accumulator flipped than what you're used to
09:11 rapacity: in the arguments for the function it takes in I mean
09:11 sheikra: rapacity: Is there a reason for this?
09:11 rapacity: I don't know why they decided on that
09:11 rapacity: rudybot: (foldl cons null '(1 2 3 4))
09:11 rudybot: rapacity: your sandbox is ready
09:11 rudybot: rapacity: ; Value: (4 3 2 1)
09:13 sheikra: rapacity: yep. I understand that. that's what I meant by bug... ;-)
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10:55 racket: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/qWTHnw
10:55 racket: [racket/master] export `step-count?' - Matthew Flatt
10:55 racket: [racket/master] fix `define-primitive' and `porvide-primitive' to check binding - Matthew Flatt
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12:20 em: javascript is so much harder than racket
12:20 em: i never really fully appreciated the REPL until I started trying to learn Javvascript
12:20 em: it's a pain to get to see any input or output for any program you write.
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12:35 Daemmerung: I believe that Rhino has a REPL ("Rhino Shell").  Try interacting with that.
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12:52 offby1: If you interact with a rhino, you'll get up with fleas
12:54 offby1: em: I don't "do" javascript, but Perl is similar.  I deal with that by editing the file in emacs, and occasionally running the entire file at once by doing M-x compile; that runs the file, and captures the output in a new buffer.  Emacs will notice error messages in that buffer, and provides a handy command to move point to the relevant line number.
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14:30 rekahsoft: hi all..how would i go about getting access to another widget through a callback? eg i create a button and i want my callback to be able to clear a text feild in the same parent frame
14:32 offby1: the callback is just a procedure, yes?
14:33 offby1: can you not ensure that the text field is in the scope of that procedure when you create it, and thus your procedure "captures" it (i.e., is a closure)?
14:53 rekahsoft: offby1: yes, correct..and yeah..so if i define the textfield before and i use it in the callback it will esentially enclose the text-field eat time its called?
15:00 offby1: should od.
15:00 offby1: do.
15:00 offby1: that's the basic behavior of "closures"
15:02 offby1: rudybot: (define thunk (let ([some-variable "a value"])  (lambda () (format "I can see some-variable: ~a" some-variable))))
15:02 rudybot: *offby1: your sandbox is ready
15:02 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
15:02 offby1: rudybot: (thunk)
15:02 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: "I can see some-variable: a value"
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15:30 racket: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/pzF4JH
15:30 racket: [racket/master] Corrected documentation of quote-module-name to indicate that it does not - Carl Eastlund
15:30 racket: [racket/master] Changed default blame formatter to report blame parties relative to collection - Carl Eastlund
15:30 racket: [racket/master] Changed source-location->string and ->prefix to use - Carl Eastlund
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15:42 rekahsoft: hmm..still can't figure out how to interact with other widgets through my callback functions :s
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16:25 Praetor: hi folks! I keep reading that "racket" is the correct command line invocation, yet "which racket" turns up empty
16:25 Praetor: I installed it correctly for the mac
16:26 jonrafkind: does it show up in your applications list or something?
16:26 Praetor: I can open its GUI. does that answer your question?
16:26 Praetor: as in, it does show up on my Applicatiosn folder
16:26 jonrafkind: yea
16:26 jonrafkind: can you discover where the drracket binary comes from?
16:27 jonrafkind: i guess the racket binary should be in the same place
16:27 Praetor: ok, hold on
16:27 Daemmerung: failing that, there's always find / -name "racket" -print
16:28 Daemmerung: followed by checking the value of your shell's path env var
16:28 Praetor: it's in /Applications/Racket v5.11/DrRacket
16:28 Praetor: somehow the executable ended up inside another folder in /Applications, and not as a .app special folder
16:29 Praetor: should I try to install it again?
16:29 jonrafkind: don't osx applications usually have a 'current' symlink that points to the current install?
16:29 Praetor: I've never heard of that.
16:30 Praetor: I think I remember now, the racket installer is not a mac installer, it's just a zipped folder
16:30 Praetor: so I never knew exactly what to do with it
16:32 Praetor: yeah, just confirmed it, the .dmg file available for download comes with the Racket v5.11 folder in it. does anyone know how to properly "install" that on the mac?
16:36 Praetor: well, I can go around that. But even then, I can't run it in the command line, it keeps opening the gui.
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16:40 Praetor: oh, got it, "racket" is in the bin/ folder
16:40 Praetor: thanks
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17:00 Praetor: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/regexp.html doesn't say what I have to (require racket/??) to use regex-match, regex-replace, etc
17:01 eli: Praetor: It's part of the basic language.
17:01 DT``: they're already in racket/base.
17:02 eli: And if you hover the mouse over the name, it'll tell you that it's provided from `racket/base' and `racket'.
17:02 Praetor: I still keep getting "14:3: compile: unbound identifier in module in: regex-replace"
17:03 Praetor: eli: thanks for the hovering tip.
17:03 Praetor: but it still complains about regex-replace
17:04 eli: Praetor: Does your file begin with `#lang racket' or `#lang racket/base'?
17:05 Praetor: #lang racket. it works now, I should have typed regexp-replace *ashamed*
17:06 Praetor: eli, thanks for keeping define-macro in mzlib/defmacro for us oldschool folks :)
17:07 eli: Praetor: That's not oldschool -- it's broken!
17:09 Praetor: well, either way, as long as you keep it in :)
17:12 Praetor: I used to use chicken but they dropped define-macro so I dropped chicken
17:12 eli: Praetor: I know that it looks like a kind of a flame, especially if you know about those kind of flames -- but it wasn't intended as such.
17:12 eli: `define-macro' is very fundamentally broken.
17:13 eli: (And of all reasons, it's a bad reason to choose a scheme implementation by...  Not that I'm sending you back to chicken...)
17:14 Praetor: eli: I don't agree, but I don't want to waste your time discussing this minor point either. I have much to thank you for. (I also chose Racket because of all the utility libraries)
17:14 eli: Here's a semi-quick explanation of `syntax-case' for people who are used to `define-macro' and try to do similar stuff, which should also help explaining why the latter is so broken:
17:14 eli: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2011/04/writing-syntax-case-macros.html
17:15 eli: You can obviously keep using it -- it's definitely not going away any time soon (and probably ever) -- but you should read it to eventually see why it's a bad idea...
17:15 eli: (Especially if you get to write code for public consumption.)
17:16 eli: And feel free to say why you think it's not broken -- I'm very used to explaining it, but more practice never hurts...
17:16 eli: (I promise I won't flame...)
17:17 Praetor: my problem with syntax-case is that I feel less powerful using it. Also, I never had any of the problems people say are inherent to defmacro when I was using CL. defmacro is the closest I can get to saying "listen expander-time, just give me the whole form, I'll deal with it".
17:17 eli: Ah, in that case that blog post is just right for you.
17:17 Praetor: when someone writes an "On Lisp" using syntax-case, that might convert me ;)
17:18 Praetor: I'll read it for sure.
17:18 eli: That would probably be easy, but look different...
17:18 eli: The thing is that the hygiene problem has two sides.
17:18 eli: One side is easy to solve using gensym -- either in Scheme or in any other Lisp.
17:18 eli: But the other side is extremely difficult to solve.
17:19 Praetor: right, but in CL we usually use with-gensyms, which is even easier then gensym
17:19 eli: Yes, I know -- like I said, that side is easy.
17:19 Praetor: what's the hard side?
17:19 eli: The difficult side is if I do, to give a trivial example:
17:19 eli: rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (foo x) (+ x 1))
17:19 rudybot: eli: your sandbox is ready
17:19 rudybot: eli: Done.
17:19 eli: rudybot: (let ([+ *]) (foo 100))
17:20 rudybot: eli: ; Value: 101
17:20 eli: That's the tricky side.
17:20 eli: Now, CL has a solution that "works": overriding any builtins is just prohibited.
17:20 Praetor: oh I've heard that argument. I think syntax-case is overkill for that. that can be solved with first class environments like so:
17:20 eli: That comes in addition to the double namespace which means that you rarely encounter it.
17:21 Praetor: (defmacro (foo x) (cl-compiler:+ x 1))
17:21 eli: Well, that's a "kind of" a solution that depends on these `cl-compiler:...' bindings that are supposedly immutable an un-overrideable in a similar way.
17:22 jonrafkind: Praetor, what about user defined functions? how do you protect them?
17:22 eli: BTW#1, you want to write:
17:22 eli: (defmacro (foo x) `(cl-compiler:+ ,x 1))
17:22 eli: BTW#2, there's another common "solution":
17:22 eli: (defmacro (foo x) `(,+ ,x 1))
17:22 eli: But that last thing works only for functions, and it mixes the compile-time and the run-time in a dangerous way.
17:23 Praetor: jonrafkind: you choose whether it's protected or not by how you change the bindings outside: (let ([cl-compiler:+ *) (foo 100))  ;; now it should return 100
17:23 Praetor: eli: right, but BTW#1 works fine
17:23 jonrafkind: (define (my-bar) ...) cl-compiler:my-bar ?
17:23 Praetor: what's inherently wrong with using environments to solve that problem?
17:24 eli: In any case, the cost of these things in CL is that it's much harder to create language extensions, where overriding bindings is very common.
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17:24 Praetor: jonrafkind: there would be no bindings outside an environment. when you don't explicitly specify an env, there's a default env where that binding is being created. get it?
17:24 eli: To create a completely new language in CL you need to get down to messy details of composing packages, specifying shadowing, and package-qualifying much of your symbols.
17:25 jonrafkind: you mean you want to create the macro with an explicit environment where such and such a symbol is bound to some value?
17:25 eli: That's a ton of work compared to what you need when you have a hygienic macro system.
17:25 Praetor: eli: I agree. maybe I think it's not such a big loss because I was never exposed to those extensions that override bindings. but still, I think using environments is superior even to what CL uses.
17:25 Praetor: eli: packages in CL are broken in my opinion. we should just have environments.
17:25 eli: Praetor: You probably know about ER and SC, which is what this will (probably) lead to... right?
17:26 Praetor: I don't think that CL got everything right. far from it.
17:26 Praetor: jonrafkind: I mean that bindings should only exist inside environments
17:26 eli: If so, then `syntax-case', at the low level is giving you the same functionality, only a little higher level.
17:26 Praetor: eli: environments lead to ER? maybe to SC. I see it as a shorter version of SC.
17:27 eli: ER is very similar, except that instead of an environment you have a renamer function.
17:28 Praetor: eli, perhaps I should read that post first and then come back with the examples rewriteen with environments, just like I think it should be, and then we'll see if it really works or not.
17:28 eli: And `syntax-case' goes further by making the "environment" into an opaque "lexical context" value that is added to the sexprs, and that you copy from one place to another.
17:28 Praetor: I think that would be interesting
17:28 eli: Yeah, that would be a good exercise.
17:28 eli: And definintely read it -- I originally wrote it as an answer to some CLer that was asking about `syntax-case' -- and it sounds like you're coming from pretty much the same angle.
17:29 Praetor: ok. let me do that and I'll be back when I have some of the examples rewritten. that should be more productive a discussion :) yes, I'm coming from the same angle, so I'll probably enjoy the post!
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17:29 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/p01pvT
17:29 racket: [racket/master] Updated unit contract tests to not rely on a specific format for names of - Carl Eastlund
17:29 (part) racket
17:48 Praetor: eli, if "(syntax-case stx () [(_ test body ...)" is asking "if stx has the shape of (_ test . body)" then what is this asking: "syntax-case (datum->syntax stx 'it) () [it" ? Note that I do understand what "(datum->syntax stx 'it)" does. I just don't understand what that pattern matching is asking.
17:49 Daemmerung: I wish that define-cstruct and _fun used the same syntax for associating a field name with a ctype.  cstruct uses (Name Type), _fun uses (Name : Type).  That colon keeps putting my hands back into C programming mode.
17:49 Daemmerung: which means that I write (Name: Type).  Which of course makes _fun barf, because Name: is one lexeme.
17:54 jonrafkind: i guess you could write your own _fun macro wrapper
17:56 Daemmerung: Have you read the source to _fun?  Ironically named.
17:57 jonrafkind: rofl, blame eli :p
17:58 Praetor: jonrafkind: eli's post on syntax-case is very illuminating. syntax-rules is the one with a bad rep, right?
17:58 jonrafkind: i guess
17:59 jonrafkind: i dont know much about the CL community, eli knows much more about it
17:59 Praetor: no, I mean a bad rep given by schemers themselves
17:59 jonrafkind: yea, its not very powerful
18:00 jonrafkind: to make it do powerful things requires a lot of tricks
18:00 Praetor: Right. I'll try once again to learn syntax-case with Dybvig's paper. I think I might like it.
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18:01 jonrafkind: btw about that pattern matching, [it will just match anything
18:01 jonrafkind: i mean a pattern variable will always match
18:01 Praetor: oh, it always matches?
18:01 jonrafkind: yea
18:01 jonrafkind: its just a way to put the syntax 'it' into a pattern variable
18:02 jonrafkind: its easier to use with-syntax: (with-syntax ([it (datum->syntax stx 'it)]) ...)
18:02 Praetor: so it's somewhat an abuse of syntax-case ? I'm not criticizing, mind you :)
18:02 Praetor: yeah I saw on the example next to that on the post
18:02 jonrafkind: which is the same because with-syntax expands into a use of syntax-case
18:03 jonrafkind: well, i guess its slightly an abuse of syntax-case. im not sure exactly how to get a pattern variable other than to use syntax-case though
18:03 jonrafkind: i mean there are lower level primitives but i dont know how to use them
18:03 Praetor: so I could write " [#t ... " instead of " [it ... " ?
18:03 DT``: that would match a literal `#t'.
18:03 jonrafkind: yea literals only match themselves
18:03 Praetor: oh, oh. gotcha
18:04 Praetor: yeah I'll definitely give that a try. funny, I had read that hygienic macros made anaphoric macros impossible to write. not true according to eli's informative post.
18:06 eli: Daemmerung: It'll be easy to have an optional `:' in cstuct, but it looks like what you want is to remove it from `_fun' types -- and that's not possible since there's a bunch more things that could be added there.
18:06 eli: Praetor: I'm going over the log, so starting at the top:
18:07 eli: (syntax-case (datum->syntax stx 'it) () [it ...]) is a way to bind `it' as a template variable.
18:07 eli: It's needed if `syntax-case' matching is the only way to do that.
18:08 eli: Obviously, it's very awkward to do so, hence `with-syntax' and then the usual #` and #, -- but I just started from the basics.
18:08 Daemmerung: eli: the `=' syntax, I take it
18:08 eli: Daemmerung: (BTW, what's ironic about `_fun'?)
18:09 Daemmerung: The code to `_fun' is not "fun."
18:09 eli: Praetor: As for the `syntax-rules' rep -- it has a good rep for doing the right thing, but a bad rep for making some of the hard thing impossible.
18:09 eli: Daemmerung: Well, I guess it's fun if you don't have to implement it...
18:09 Praetor: eli, oh, so maybe I read that syntax-rules makes anaphorism impossible, but syntax-case obviously allows for it?
18:10 Daemmerung: eli: I am delighted not to have had to implement it.  But scouring it to understand it was challenging.
18:10 eli: Praetor: Yes, anaphoric macros are a common example for the limitation of `syntax-rules'.
18:10 eli: Praetor: It is possible to do it with `syntax-case', but that's bad too.  A much better solution is syntax parameters.
18:11 eli: (I have something about that, which I'll point you to shortly.)
18:11 Praetor: yeah I;m reading the "dirty looking hygiene" post
18:11 eli: Daemmerung: Yeah, since it's a general template for constructing wrapper functions it can be challenging.
18:11 Praetor: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2008/02/dirty-looking-hygiene.html
18:11 DT``: eli, aren't they possible using `eval'?
18:11 eli: Praetor: Yeah, that's a somewhat old description that should work.
18:12 eli: Praetor: Re Dybvig's paper for learning `syntax-case' -- that might be an overkill.  The intention of the `syntax-case' post is to get you to the basics quickly without going through too much verbiage.
18:12 eli: DT``: What's "they"?
18:12 DT``: anaphoric macros.
18:12 Daemmerung: Maybe I'll take another pass at cracking _fun tomorrow.  Am having some issues with _list now.  Anyway, out of time for today.  Hasta, y'all.
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18:13 eli: DT``: Anaphoric macros with `eval'??  That sounds like a bad idea.
18:13 DT``: (aif cond true false) -> (let ((tmp cond)) (eval `(define it ,tmp)) (if tmp true false))
18:13 DT``: eli, well, of course it is, but it's possible.
18:13 DT``: it's probably not portable too.
18:14 eli: DT``: Good thing I'm not eating.  But no, that's definitely not a good way to solve it.
18:14 eli: s/not a good way/a very broken/
18:14 Praetor: eli, I must ask you, though: one silly reason I like(d) defmacro is because I always knew in the back of my mind that it is simple to implement. Do I need to be an Eli like you to be able to write a syntax-case if I have to repopulate the earth with Schemes?
18:15 eli: That probably won't help...
18:15 eli: I'm intnetionally keeping myself from knowing all the low-level details about the implementation.
18:15 Praetor: does that mean it's simple to implement? I'm puzzled :)
18:16 eli: The implementation is hard, but understanding the gist of it is much easier.
18:17 eli: You should basically just think about syntax objects as sexprs with a "lexical context".  And that context is an opaque value that you shouldn't care about how it's implemented -- you just need to know that it's there, and that you can use `datum->syntax' to copy it from one syntax object to a newly made one.
18:18 Praetor: that's what I thought.
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19:07 racket: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/q6AJlf
19:07 racket: [racket/master] make ISL `local' and `letrec' expand more the old way - Matthew Flatt
19:07 racket: [racket/master] fix `define-primitive' and `provide-primitive' - Matthew Flatt
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20:18 racket: [racket] plt pushed 8 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/pUaYji
20:18 racket: [racket/master] retabbing and dead code removal only - John Clements
20:18 racket: [racket/master] retabbing only - John Clements
20:18 racket: [racket/master] retabbing, dumping a 'local', no longer using parenthesized module form - John Clements
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22:29 racket: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/qSFbI9
22:29 racket: [racket/master] fix `hash-ref' bugs on immutable `eq?'-based tables - Matthew Flatt
22:29 racket: [racket/master] fix cross reference - Matthew Flatt
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22:52 racket: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/quBqgU
22:52 racket: [racket/master] Fix capitalization of HtDP. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
22:52 racket: [racket/master] Add `racket/kernel' as language with very low startup time. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
22:52 (part) racket
22:57 rekahsoft: hi all..i am just playing around with making a very simple pop-up repl..
22:57 rekahsoft: now just for starters here's the paste: http://pastebin.com/UJn5cFeH
22:58 rekahsoft: the issue is that when i run the commands in the paste in the repl it works fine but if run like "racket file.rkt" it doesn't work
22:58 jonrafkind: define doesn't work
23:00 jonrafkind: ok it always errors for any input
23:00 jonrafkind: btw you spelled evaluating wrong.. evalulting
23:02 jonrafkind: if you print the exn message, (printf "~a\n" (exn-message exn)) you will see this: compile: unbound identifier (and no #%app syntax transformer is bound) at: + in: (+ 11)
23:02 jonrafkind: so I think the answer is you need to create a base namespace and require racket/base into it
23:04 rekahsoft: awe..cause it works if you copy paste everything in the fil into a repl but i assume thats because they are in the same namespace..
23:06 (part) shofetim: "ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"
23:09 (quit) tzhuang: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
23:14 rekahsoft: jonrafkind: any other advice..strugling to get this namespace idea inplace
23:15 jonrafkind: (define n (make-base-namespace)) (parameterize ([current-namespace n]) (namespace-require n 'racket/base) (eval whatever))
23:16 jonrafkind: sorry dont pass n to namespace-require
23:19 rekahsoft: alright..thats a nice little boost plus docs.racket-lang will help me out :P
23:22 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
23:54 eli: rekahsoft: Use `racket/sandbox' -- will simplify things.