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03:52 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/jI7Qhe
03:52 racket: [racket/master] added get-pos/text-dc-location method to editor:basic in framework - Robby Findler
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04:14 rapacity: in the docs stream-fold is said to return a (void) shouldn't it be any/c ?
04:32 neilv: "Although a comment parsed via #; discards the datum afterward, #‹digit10›{1,8}= definitions in the discarded datum still can be referenced by other parts of the reader input,"
04:33 neilv: well, crud. so you can't always color all of "#;(...)" as a comment, because some of the "..." might be both a comment and not a comment
04:42 rapacity: rudybot: #1234567890{1,8}
04:42 rudybot: rapacity: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
04:42 rapacity: rudybot: (begin #1234567890{1,8})
04:42 rudybot: rapacity: Fexprs are macros that expand at run-time.  Consequently, adding them to the language fundamentally changes its evaluation rules.  For example, it is no longer the case that applying the procedure yielded by (lambda (f) (f 1 2 (begin (display "Foo!") 3))) always has the effect of displaying "Foo!".
04:42 rapacity: kyah :(
04:48 rapacity: Welcome to Racket v5.1.1. > #1234567890{1,8}   SIGSEGV MAPERR si_code 1 fault on addr 0xb5458000
04:50 neilv: i think it's trying to interpret that as a vector self-eval. but it should not crash
04:53 neilv: in my drracket 5.1.1, under #lang racket, the expression: (begin #123456789(1) 'hi)
04:53 neilv: generates an "out of memory" error
04:53 neilv: and adding the 0 to the end of the number crashes drracket
04:58 neilv: i have just submitted a bug report on this
04:59 rapacity: oh
05:00 neilv: crap. they are not spam-protecting the email address
05:02 ohwow: What is the best PLaneT module for working with  databases (sqlite in particular)? http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=db.plt&owner=ryanc this one?
05:03 neilv: ohwow: that would be my first guess
05:03 neilv: i looked at one of the database implementations in it recently, and the code looked good
05:03 ohwow: cool, thanks
05:07 bremner: rapacity: I don't get a crash under 5.1.1 but rather it pegs the cpu and uses all my memory
05:07 neilv: bremner: 32-bit x86?
05:08 bremner: no, amd64
05:08 bremner: 6G ram
05:09 neilv: rapacity: which hardward arch and os are you using?
05:10 rapacity: x86_64, archlinux
05:10 neilv: bremner: which os?
05:10 bremner: debian linux
05:11 bremner: it's true there are one or two patches in my 5.1.1 cherry-picked from master
05:14 bremner: the list of extra patches is http://paste.debian.net/121026/
05:20 neilv: thanks. i have updated the bug report. i'm sure matthew flatt will debug and fix this in about 30 seconds
05:24 bremner: mflatt is the Chuck Norris of bug fixing
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10:07 Daemmerung: That weird vector crashes my Windows build too, fwiw
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10:54 yoklov1: hm, so what's the deal with racket's regexps and backslashes?
10:54 yoklov1: do i just always have to use two?
10:56 neilv: yes
10:57 yoklov1: and that works as if i had just used one in a normal regex
10:57 yoklov1: ?
10:59 yoklov1: oh, i can just work on the regex elsewhere and paste it in and dr racket escapes it right
10:59 yoklov1: awesome
11:00 neilv: the regexp language has backslashes, but to construct a regexp, you always have to start with string literals, which have their own interpretation of backslashes, so you have to double the backslashes in the string literal
11:01 Daemmerung: that's half of the appeal of non-string-literal based regex approaches.
11:01 Daemmerung: not having to think about \\ versus \\\\ versus \\\\\\
11:02 neilv: schemes do one better than forward-slash regexp syntax, by having sexp-based regexp syntax
11:02 neilv: but at the moment, most everyone in racket is using plain strings and #rx strings
11:02 yoklov1: hm
11:02 Daemmerung: I think it's a regex-culture thing
11:04 neilv: i think it's mostly that olin shivers's sre isn't standard in racket
11:04 neilv: i think i could add "/" regexp syntax to the racket reader easily, but i don't think it would be a good idea
11:05 yoklov1: just out of curiousity, why not?
11:05 Daemmerung: SRE was exactly the non-string-literal approach to which I was alluding.
11:06 yoklov1: i'm reading about it right now, its very weird.
11:06 neilv: regexps aren't that important
11:06 yoklov1: depends what you're doing
11:06 yoklov1: but
11:06 Daemmerung: See?  regex culture.  Folks who hack on strings seem to want to describe them with strings.
11:06 yoklov1: yeah.
11:06 neilv: regexps are often kludges
11:07 Daemmerung: s/often/almost always/
11:07 yoklov1: yeah, but they can save so much time.
11:07 neilv: > Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems.
11:07 Daemmerung: heh
11:07 neilv: jwz
11:07 yoklov1: if you're doing something like datamining, regexs are incredibly useful
11:08 Daemmerung: obligatory xkcd ref goes here
11:12 neilv: this morning, for the new racket emacs mode, i'm trying to come up with a declarative language for indentation rules
11:13 yoklov1: hm, there's a racket emacs mode?
11:13 (nick) elliottcable -> ec|detached
11:13 Daemmerung: there are a couple of them.  I have high hopes for this one.
11:13 neilv: and ideally the indent rules can executed on a stack machine without much consing
11:14 neilv: screenshot of the new emacs mode in progress: http://www.neilvandyke.org/weblog/2011/06/#2011-06-20
11:14 yoklov1: huh.
11:14 yoklov1: that looks very good
11:14 neilv: old emacs mode: http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/
11:15 yoklov1: yeah, i had used it
11:15 yoklov1: it wasn't bad
11:15 Daemmerung: yoklov1: there is Quack, and there is Geiser.  And there is son-of-Quack or whatever neilv is calling it.  Meow?
11:15 neilv: meow
11:15 Daemmerung: My Emacs something something?
11:16 neilv: no initialism
11:16 Daemmerung: Heretic.
11:16 neilv: there are a few puns, but i will save the surprise
11:16 Daemmerung: Just have to retcon one on your behalf, then
11:16 neilv: my emacs overly wrocks
11:17 neilv: ostensibly works
11:17 Daemmerung: mzscheme, extended or wrewritten
11:17 neilv: you see why there is no initialism
11:17 Daemmerung: yeah, that o is a stinker
11:17 yoklov1: lol
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11:20 neilv: neither emacs nor drracket indents named-"let" sensibly if there are newlines before and after the name
11:21 neilv: named-let is actually the only hard thing to do. i have a simple semantics that covers everything else
11:21 yoklov1: the indentation of named let has always been a bit weird
11:21 yoklov1: but its never bothered me
11:22 yoklov1: for/fold can be wonky too.
11:23 (nick) ec|detached -> elliottcable
11:23 neilv: for/fold is simple.  you have exactly 2 special-arg-indent sexps, followed by rest special-body-indent
11:25 yoklov1: i mean
11:25 yoklov1: the 2 things are supposed to line up right?
11:25 yoklov1: the special-arg-indents
11:27 yoklov1: regardless indentation only bothers me if it's way off, which it never is.
11:27 neilv: except for "let", i haven't yet thought of a form that can't have its conventional indent rules reduced to a single value: special-arg-count-or-nil
11:28 neilv: emacs doesn't reduce it to that, and neither does drracket, but they should
11:28 neilv: is my current thinking
11:28 yoklov1: hm
11:29 neilv: the special-arg-count-or-nil can also be 0 instead of nil.  for example, "begin" will be 0, but "and" will get the default of nil
11:29 yoklov1: special args being when the arguments are in identifier expression pairs?
11:30 yoklov1: and nil being when that doesn't exist and you should indent it otherwise?
11:30 yoklov1: or no
11:30 neilv: special args are just what i'm calling the convention of indenting the first 1 or 2 args specially and then indenting any remaining args 1 space
11:30 yoklov1: oh okay
11:32 yoklov1: huh, i guess the id-value pairs in normal let or for are just one argument.
11:32 neilv: when you get inside the id-value list, it's just normal indent rules
11:32 yoklov1: yeah
11:33 neilv: special-arg-count-or-nil = nil in that case
11:34 yoklov1: that's interesting though, that it can almost always boil down to that.
11:35 neilv: if i did what emacs and drracket do, and punted on named-let, then it would always work, i think
11:35 neilv: to do named-let right in all cases, i think i need a conditional form
11:36 JohnnyL: how-are-we-supposed-to-name-our-functions?
11:36 bremner: like-that
11:36 bremner: or->this
11:36 neilv: sometimes/slash
11:37 yoklov1: lol
11:37 JohnnyL: do-we-include-all-of-our-arguments-local-variables-and-logical-operators?  <-- predicate
11:37 neilv: current-parameter-too
11:37 Daemmerung: this-is-a-verb this-is-an-imperative-verb! adjective-or-adj-phrase?
11:37 bremner: exclamation!marks!and?are!usually!only!at!the!end.
11:39 Daemmerung: ThereIsASpecialPlaceInHellForCamelCase
11:39 bremner: CamelPlace
11:40 yoklov1: lol
11:40 neilv: camelcase does have the advantage of taking less horizontal space
11:40 yoklov1: camelcase isn't that bad.
11:40 neilv: but i prefer not to have to type with shifts
11:40 Eren: damnCamelCase, whyWouldYouUseIt?
11:40 Daemmerung: I use it in my current FFI-rich code, and am saddened thereby.
11:41 bremner: haskellRefugee?
11:41 JohnnyL: javascriptIntuit
11:41 yoklov1: I mean, I wouldn't really ever use it in scheme, just because it would look weird, but it's a fairly reasonable naming convention in other languages.
11:42 JohnnyL: JohnnyL and yoklov1, together at last!
11:42 Daemmerung: I'm slow to get off of the shift key, so my CamelCase procs end up as CAmelCase.  So nothing runs the first time that I write it.
11:42 yoklov1: lol, that's fair
11:43 yoklov1: i just like how compact it looks
11:43 Daemmerung: the hyphens allow for superior ventilation, so your code runs cooler
11:43 yoklov1: theres somethign about scheme functions that are more than 3 words separated by dashes that just… look too long.
11:43 Eren: yoklov1: such-as?
11:44 Daemmerung: call-with-current-continuation-no-i-really-mean-it
11:44 yoklov1: exactly
11:44 neilv: i'm sure i have some 60-character procedure names somewhere
11:44 Eren: oh-well-ok-sir-thank-you
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11:44 yoklov1: and I'm always tempted to do it
11:44 neilv: they can make sense in a large system, especially when the reader is not expected to know the entire system
11:44 Eren: I know an NT API method which has 9 parameters
11:45 Eren: and you should fill all of them
11:45 Daemmerung: CreateWindowEx, RegisterClassEx, ...
11:45 Daemmerung makes a sign against evil
11:45 yoklov1: i usually spend 5-10 minutes trying to think of a shorter name thoguh
11:45 neilv: there is a quote, something like: "if your function has 10 arguments, you're missing some"
11:45 Eren: yoklov1: well, in some days, people thought about that issue so much that they introduced a function named "creat()"
11:46 Eren: so, don't think too much
11:46 yoklov1: lol
11:47 yoklov1: i usually can't come up with anything better than create-window-and-begin
11:47 yoklov1: or whatever i'm stuck on at the time
11:48 offby1: neilv: that sounds like Jamie Zawinski
11:48 Eren: it looks like "parse-the-data-and-return-foo-object"
11:49 offby1: pass-the-peas-pass-the-peas-pass-the-peas-like-we-used-to-do
11:49 yoklov1: lol
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11:49 Daemmerung: offby1: I would have guessed Perlis
11:50 offby1: that too
11:50 Daemmerung: Ha.  http://www.cs.yale.edu/quotes.html - see #11
11:51 offby1: yeah yeah I believe ya
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11:53 offby1: I cited #9 just the other day
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12:30 dsp_: raco setup:   ffi-obj: couldn't get "SSLv2_client_method" from "libssl.so" (/usr/lib/libssl.so: undefined symbol: SSLv2_client_method)
12:31 dsp_: I just got this error after over an hour of building :/ a search of the mailing list archives didn't bring up anything initially
12:32 dsp_: libssl.so is linked to 1.0.0, which doesn't match for that string, whereas libssl.so.0.9.8 does. i suppose that'd be the issue.
12:34 dsp_: is there a way to explicitly set such options?
12:35 jonrafkind: well there is a way to ask for 0.9.8 in the code
12:35 jonrafkind: is libssl 1.0 new?
12:35 jonrafkind: seems it came out in february..
12:36 jonrafkind: probably the answer is to look for 0.9.8 explicitly, can you make a bug report about it?
12:37 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer
12:37 dsp_: alrighty
12:43 bremner: there is a patch that mkes it work with ssl 1.0 in master now. Want me to look it up?
12:43 bremner: dsp_, jonrafkind ^
12:43 dsp_: aha, that'd be nice. should i abort the bugreport then? :)
12:43 bremner: probably
12:43 jonrafkind: do you know if its in 5.1.1?
12:43 dsp_: cool, cheers
12:43 dsp_: i'm testing with 5.1.1
12:43 jonrafkind: oh
12:44 bremner: jonrafkind: post 5.1.1, but in the debian package
12:44 jonrafkind: well you can try a nighlty build I guess
12:44 dsp_: is the debian package in apt? or just from the website?
12:44 dsp_: i'm actually on sid and have experimental repos
12:44 dsp_: i just didn't think to look
12:44 bremner: in debian testing and backports by now
12:44 dsp_: silly me. thanks!
12:45 bremner: welcome
12:45 bremner: ftr, the commit you want is 4cc0af90aa9871ff7ba74ebbab853dcb1cf5aedd for the ssl fix
12:46 dsp_: i'm sure it'll be helpful for others
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12:52 yoklov: much better.
12:53 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
12:57 yoklov: there's nothing quite like a fresh linux install
13:02 Daemmerung cackles
13:02 Daemmerung: It works!!
13:02 Daemmerung: Two days of beating my head against the FFI, but it finally works.  JOy.
13:05 (join) bugQ
13:06 yoklov: what works?
13:07 Daemmerung: I'm rewriting MysterX in Racket.  Finally got it to the point where it will launch Excel cleanly.
13:07 neilv: cool
13:20 offby1: what was MysterX again?
13:21 Daemmerung: Something that puts a lump of Windows-specific C++ code in the Racket project
13:23 Daemmerung: I have proven that a useful subset of it can be written in Racket alone.
13:33 offby1: huh, analogous to the Great WxWidgets Rewriting of 2010
13:48 tauntaun: Any thoughts about how Racket's Slideshow compares to Beamer?
13:49 offby1: nope.
13:49 offby1: none.
13:49 offby1: nuh-uh.
13:49 offby1: Anyone have an Emacs mode for scribble that's better than fundamental-mode?
13:50 neilv: i have a google
13:51 neilv: http://www.neilvandyke.org/scribble-emacs/
13:53 neilv: http://www.neilvandyke.org/weblog/2011/01/#2011-01-09
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14:03 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/lx60an
14:03 racket: [racket/master] Synch German string constants with latest. - Mike Sperber
14:03 (part) racket
14:03 (nick) samth_away -> samth
14:03 samth: tauntaun: i like slideshow
14:04 samth: if you need to do math, use beamer
14:04 samth: if you need to do racket code, use slideshow
14:04 samth: if you want to draw pictures with the slideshow primitives, use slideshow
14:04 samth: if you want fancy animations, use keynote
14:14 tauntaun: Thanks, samth.
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14:18 samth: tauntaun: there are fancy animations in slideshow, but i think only matthew can make them work (see `slideshow/play')
14:19 samth: there are a bunch of slideshow talks up on my web page
14:19 samth: if you're interested in how the output looks
14:19 samth: carleastlund: what C code have you been hacking?
14:20 samth: Daemmerung: well done w/ MysterX
14:20 carleastlund: samth, Exposing the representation of syntax objects to debug something the macro stepper isn't showing me.
14:20 samth: carleastlund: that sounds like more fun than a barrel of monkeys
14:20 samth: all of whom have ebola
14:22 carleastlund: I don't know if it is or if it isn't, which is a sign that you've found the right comparison.
14:23 samth: what if they all have flesh eating bacteria?
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14:27 carleastlund: Hmm.  You're right, that might put me out of my misery even quicker.  Much better.
14:33 Daemmerung: samth: thanky.
14:34 (quit) realitygrill: Quit: realitygrill
14:38 offby1: neilv: hey, thanks.
14:41 offby1: How come ... often when I require something from planet ... I see a lot of ugly warnings or errors like this? Welcome to Racket v5.1.1.
14:41 offby1: racket@> (require (planet neil/scribble-emacs:1:2/install-in-my-emacs))
14:41 offby1: get-module-code: no such file: #<path:/home/erich/.racket/planet/300/5.1.1/cache/neil/scribble-emacs.plt/1/2/planet-docs/info.rkt>
14:41 offby1: /usr/local/src/geiser/scheme/racket/geiser/enter.rkt:88:18: (let-values (((code) lifted.1) ((path7) path) ((temp8) (quote "compiled")) ((compile9) compile) ((temp10) (lambda ....)) ((temp11) (....))) ((checked-procedure-check-and-extract struct:keyword-procedure code keyword-procedure-extract (quote ....) (....)...
14:41 offby1: /usr/local/src/geiser/scheme/racket/geiser/enter.rkt:88:6: (let-values (((code) (let-values (((code) lifted.1) ((....) ....) (....) ....) ((checked-procedure-check-and-extract ....) (....) ....))) ((path) (normal-case-path (simplify-path (....))))) (let-values (((m) (mod1 name ....))) (add-paths! m (resolve-pat...
14:41 offby1: === context ===
14:41 offby1: /usr/share/racket/collects/syntax/modcode.rkt:79:2: core
14:41 offby1: /usr/local/src/geiser/scheme/racket/geiser/enter.rkt:82:0
14:41 offby1: standard-module-name-resolver
14:42 offby1: /usr/share/racket/collects/setup/setup-unit.rkt:717:6: for-loop
14:42 offby1: /usr/share/racket/collects/setup/setup-unit.rkt:709:2: make-info-domain-step
14:42 offby1: oops
14:42 offby1: meant to paste the URL, not the whole thnig
14:42 offby1: http://ix.io/1KZ if anyone cares
14:44 carleastlund: offby1, looks like something is including direct links to the planet-docs directory, which is the *online* version of the documentation and not actually included in the distributed version.
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14:46 neilv: offby1: i just tried it on 5.1.1 in drscheme, and it worked for me
14:46 offby1 frowns
14:47 neilv: offby1: can you try it from drracket, perhaps removing from your planet cache first?
14:47 neilv: or try it from racket command line tool directly (no geiser) and set PLTSTDERR=debug
14:56 offby1: I'll try the latter
14:56 (quit) bugQ: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
14:56 neilv: lisppaste is down?
14:57 Daemmerung: been down for days
14:57 Daemmerung: been down so long, etc., etc
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14:59 offby1: if it weren't for bad luck, etc., etc
14:59 neilv: i just worked through a 44-token example of indent for meow, including supporting named let
14:59 offby1: neilv: hmph, problem didn't repro: http://ix.io/1L0
15:00 offby1: .oO("meow"?)
15:00 offby1: woof
15:00 neilv: there's an indent-context-stack and a flag for whether we're the first non-whitespace/comment token on the line
15:00 neilv: indent-context-stack actually has not much allocation going on. it does use mutation at the head
15:01 Daemmerung: neilv: I hope that you call this new styling engine of yours "Meow MIX."
15:01 neilv: heh
15:01 Daemmerung: (meow-indentation-eXecutor)
15:01 neilv: is that a knuth reference?
15:02 Daemmerung: yep
15:05 neilv: http://pastebin.com/fqy1Tsx9
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15:06 neilv: basically, as we're doing the scanning, which is a series of scan-next-token calls (no recursion in elisp), we can also calculate the indent info
15:07 neilv: and attach the indent info to the tokens, or reindent everything on the fly (probably not), or add visual cues where indent doesn't match what we expect
15:07 neilv: it should be fast enough
15:08 neilv: and actual reindent on any line is just looking for the annotation we calculated earlier, checking to see whether the horiz-ws token agrees, and if no agree, fix it, and do the right things so that we don't think we have to rescan
15:10 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
15:13 neilv: this algorithm will also indent the #; comments even though all other sexp operations ignore them
15:17 Daemmerung: do you think that's desirable behavior?
15:17 Daemmerung: i can see arguments either way.  But am imagining, say, a sharp semi comment in the middle of a `do' form.
15:18 neilv: what's the problem with that?
15:20 Daemmerung: do is positional
15:20 (quit) bugQ: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
15:20 Daemmerung: (do #;((i 0 (+ i 1))) ((i 1 (+ i 1))) ((> i 99) #f) baz)
15:21 samth: neilv: as a test case for your indenter, consider PR 1172 in the Racket bug data base
15:21 samth: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?debug=&database=default&cmd=view+audit-trail&cmd=view&pr=1172
15:21 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/66sxaye
15:21 neilv: Daemmerung: i mean indent within the #; comments.  #; comments don't affect indent computation outside of the #;
15:21 Daemmerung: Okay.
15:22 neilv: samth: it will have the same problem
15:23 neilv: if indenter thinks it should be indenting "recur" as special syntax, and someone is using it as a variable name
15:24 neilv: of course, the indenter will have a pretty good idea of whether recur is special syntax in this file
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15:25 neilv: if it is, the hash table of special syntax will have a key "recur" with a value 2
15:26 neilv: actually, even then it shouldn't be a problem with this algorithm. we'll just make their intended variable name bold like special syntax, indent it reasonably, and they can get an error from the racket compiler later
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15:52 (nick) elliottcable -> often
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15:57 (nick) often -> elliottcable
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18:32 otzi: hello. I'm trying to make an extension using raco tool. I'm trying to work using 3m collector, but swig only generates code for cgc. Is there no other way of handling 3m other than doing it by hand? Doing so wouldn't be too painful, if there wasn't a lot of boilerplate for 3m. Which brings me to my next question, how reliable is --xform? What should I avoid doing when using it?
18:33 jonrafkind: its fairly picky about hte sort of C code it will accept
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18:33 jonrafkind: i dont know all the caveats but I guess you can try it
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