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00:36 neilv: eli: i made the paren-matching highlight in meow give you a cue where the point will land on a left-sexp movement
00:36 neilv: http://www.neilvandyke.org/weblog/2011/06/#2011-06-19
00:39 neilv: i have reluctantly switched to yellow snow, just for consistency with drracket
00:40 eli: neilv: Won't help much when it comes to finger memory, worse with keyboard macros...  But really don't take me as a factor...
00:40 eli: BTW, something is wrong with your css -- the post titles don't have a newline after them.
00:40 neilv: which browser?
00:41 eli: IOW, I see: Meow, ...-MatchingSmall point ...
00:41 eli: Chrome on windows.
00:42 eli: And BTW#2, if you get only internet from comcast -- something I considered getting from them is a business connection, almost the same price, and hopefully will get service that is not completely frustrating.
00:43 eli: (I dread calling them every time they have a DNS server issue -- trying to explain it to the drones is a sure way to drive my head against the nearest wall...)
00:43 neilv: this css has a bug that hasn't shown in firefox for ten years
00:43 neilv: thanks
00:44 eli: Yeah, it's fixed now.
00:44 eli: What was the problem?
00:44 neilv: some leftover thing i was experimenting with 10 years ago :)
00:44 neilv: because my blog entries didn't used to have titles, so i thought i'd try run-in headings
00:44 neilv: anyway, that's way off-topic, but thanks
00:46 neilv: eli: i can provide an alternate left-sexp command for you that just goes to the paren. maybe it's a matter of preference that others will have
00:47 eli: Well, if you make a new command, and I go on using `backward-sexp' as my M-left binding, then everything's fine...
00:47 neilv: i have some bad news for you
00:48 neilv: backward-sexp will not work in meow buffers
00:48 neilv: meow intentionally clears the syntax table, to thwart broken kludges
00:49 neilv: there is a chance that i'll add in syntax table support, but it will be slower, the way it has to be done
00:50 neilv: i might defadvice backward-sexp to call the meow function when in meow-mode, however
01:02 eli: neilv: Having it empty sounds pretty bad...
01:03 neilv: parens are punctuation in the syntax-table
01:03 neilv: for one thing, it helps defeat any number of paren-matching features that people might have installed
01:04 neilv: because they would do it wrong, and slow down responsiveness
01:04 eli: Well, the disadvantage is that it defeats any number of paren-matching features that people might have installed...
01:04 neilv: meow implements its own versions of what almost everyone uses syntax tables for
01:04 neilv: which is mostly font-lock
01:05 eli: It's interesting to see how much stuff -- if any -- breaks for me because of that.
01:07 neilv: it's interesting that quack features like quack-toggle-lambda work as well as they do, considering that they work in kludgey emacs ways
01:07 neilv: part of the reason quack development stalled is that, besides it being good enough for most of my purposes, the kludging was unpleasant to do
01:10 eli: I'm not oppsed to doing the right(er) thing -- just wondering how much will break in the face of an empty syntax table
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01:12 neilv: i think i have a good idea
01:12 eli: Which is...?
01:14 neilv: i think the biggest thing, which most people might not even realize has changed, is that operations they might have to move or delete by word do so in slightly different ways than in quack
01:14 neilv: or maybe not
01:15 neilv: people are already used to interactively doing things like word-delete-check-to-see-if-it-deleted-enough-repeat-until-it-does
01:15 neilv: meow will ephasize sexps anyway. and so things like sexp-delete will work, no matter what the syntax
01:16 eli: I'm not following the "delete by word do so"
01:17 eli: I'll be happy to give any sketch you have a quick try, if it helps, btw.
01:17 neilv: it's a minor point. if someone sees an identifier or a self-eval and they want to delete it, but they don't know about sexp operations, they might interactively use delete-word repeatedly, until the thing is deleted
01:18 neilv: so, if they did that in meow, they might end up hitting delete-word key fewer or more times than they would in quack
01:18 neilv: that's the biggest problem i forsee, which is negligible
01:19 eli: So `delete-word' deletes a sexpr?
01:19 neilv: no
01:19 eli: So any example for text where there's a differnce?
01:19 neilv: if people are doing things kludgey ways, they they kludges might behave slightly differently in meow than in quack, but they probably won't notice
01:21 eli: Well, I *do* use word operations occasionally, it's not often, but when I do then it's intended (in a way that will make me sad if it's gone...).
01:21 neilv: i bet you won't notice a difference
01:22 neilv: i was trying to make the point that i don't think there will be a noticeable difference, by giving an extreme example of the worst case
01:22 neilv: which is so minor as to be difficult to explain
01:22 eli: You'd be surprised...
01:23 eli: To give you an example of something that is really annoying, my rcirc prompt is "eli> "
01:24 eli: Now, if the cursor is on the real beginning of the line, and the text that follows it is "eli> Now, if the ...", then I expect two `C-right's to place me at "eli> Now|, if the ..."
01:25 eli: But because the prompt is an immutable piece of text using some properties (some field properties or something like that), the end of the prompt is considered a boundary, and I'll end up at "eli> |Now, if the...".
01:25 eli: That's a very small change, but I constantly trip over it.
01:26 eli: (I'm probably spending 95% of my computer time in Emacs, and have done so for close to two decades, so I'm very sensitive to such changes.)
01:27 neilv: i hope to put meow in planet soon
01:27 eli: (Translation: don't let my whining slow you down...)
01:27 eli: Why planet?
01:28 neilv: because it is for racket, and i already have a good way of distributing emacs packages through planet
01:28 neilv: http://www.neilvandyke.org/scribble-emacs/#(part._.Install)
01:30 eli: OK for the second point; unclear for the first (but I'm obviously very protective for my .emacs).
01:31 eli: And how did I miss you making that...?
01:31 eli: Ah, actually, I think that I have a vague memory of it.
01:32 lisppaste: neilv pasted "this is what it adds/updates in your emacs init file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122759
01:33 eli: In that case I have a serious point against it.
01:33 neilv: that's why the "install-in-my-emacs" part is not for you, and is optional
01:34 eli: Being just a cache, there is a kind of an assumption that if I rm -rf my ~/.racket/planet/**/cache then things will work as intended.
01:34 eli: But that will break.
01:34 eli: It's probably better to just copy the code out to some place like ~/.emacs.d/racket/scribble.el
01:36 neilv: it would have to solve the halting problem so that it could determine what was in the load-path that it could write to
01:37 neilv: or you mean still modify their emacs init file but not use load-path
01:38 eli: Yes -- just put it there, and have the modified .emacs code load it from there.  No `load-path' hacks.
01:38 eli: I think that I've seen a few packages that treat .emacs.d as a generic place for "stuff related to my package" thing.
01:38 neilv: i can tell you that ".emacs.d" on my system is blown away several times a day :)
01:40 neilv: realistically, i don't mind users having to reinstall meow if they blow away their planet cache for some reason
01:40 eli: I used to do that to, probably for similar reason.  (Disliking useless lists of no-longer relevant auto save files or something like that.)
01:40 eli: Then I realized that it's actually used for more than that.
01:41 eli: In any case, it's a good place to put things, and tell people how to go about moving it if they want to -- and still more convenient than the alternative of making them dig through the planet hierarchy.
01:41 neilv: 99% of the people don't know where the files are and don't care
01:42 neilv: the 1% who do care, will actually look at their emacs init file and see where the file is
01:42 neilv: i give them an absolute path, and everything
01:43 eli: Oh, it's even absolute...  That can surprise people even more when their home directory is available under different paths.
01:43 eli: Which is something I've seen in at least 3 different CS departments.
01:43 neilv: that, i could change
01:45 eli: BTW, instead of using `condition-case', you can (unless (require 'scribble "~/blah/blah" t) ...)
01:45 eli: But it seems iffy to massage standard error messages like that.
01:48 neilv: i am an upstanding citizen. i do not do iffy things
01:51 eli: :)  I don't see any other purpose of that `condition-case' other than modifying the error message...
02:02 neilv: it catches any error whatsoever and prevents the error from interfering with emacs startup. it adds a normal message (not an error), which users can find in their "*Messages*" buffer if they are wondering why their scribble buffers are not pretty
02:04 eli: (Ugh, misread the "(error" part, as usual.)
02:05 neilv: emacs's dumb fontifying encourages reading that wrong
02:09 eli: I've been spoiled with []s.
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03:12 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/jKonrD
03:12 racket: [racket/master] improved the error messsage for contract violations of preferences:add-callback - Robby Findler
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04:28 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/mAKM0y
04:28 racket: [racket/master] Recketizing much in `net/*', mass ".ss" -> ".rkt" conversion in .scrbl files.... - Eli Barzilay
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06:30 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/kfAzQb
06:30 racket: [racket/master] Hack: make the `net/url' implementation handle both "http" and "https" urls, dispatching to the plain tcp functions or the ssl one.... - Eli Barzilay
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10:13 racket: [racket/master] 3m-only build fix - Matthew Flatt
10:13 racket: [racket/master] note on cross-compilation - Matthew Flatt
10:13 racket: [racket/master] adjust and document net/url HTTPS support - Matthew Flatt
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10:20 samth: mithos28: did you see the email on the list about regexp types?
10:20 samth: and can you fix the relevant types?
10:27 mithos28: samth: yep
10:27 samth: mithos28: thanks!
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12:29 racket: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/ki5NV8
12:29 racket: [racket/master] add usual prefix to configure flag report - Matthew Flatt
12:29 racket: [racket/master] fix initial panel size... - Matthew Flatt
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15:42 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/ilAssp
15:42 racket: [racket/master] Small correction - Eli Barzilay
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16:06 samth: mithos28: mostly the important thing is to avoid regressions if we change things
16:06 samth: so if the types are really simple, then just replicating the types in the test is fine
16:06 samth: and you don't need to have complete coverage right now
16:09 mithos28: samth: ok, I am thinking about the regexp regression and how the tests could have avoided that
16:10 mithos28: and the problem was that my understanding of the contract was wrong
16:10 samth: the test there would be something like [tc-e (regexp-match "foo" (current-input-port)) something-with-Bytes]
16:11 mithos28: which I think would have passed
16:11 samth: really?
16:11 samth: you changed that to use String, i think
16:11 mithos28: sorry I would have put string in the result type
16:12 samth: right, but if you're changing the test case, then there's no hope of tests helping you
16:12 samth: the thing that would have caught the problem would have been *me* writing that test, so that you noticed a break when you changed things
16:13 mithos28: ok. And I am in your position with these new identifiers
16:14 samth: right
16:14 mithos28: Ok so I should aim at testing identifiers with interesting types, instead of 100%
16:17 samth: yeah
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16:45 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/jipZFt
16:45 racket: [racket/master] Correction to the small correction - Eli Barzilay
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16:46 racket: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/kxoLFs
16:46 racket: [racket/master] gtk: fix menu-bar height handling to work right with Ubuntu's patch to support out-of-frame menu bars in Unity - Matthew Flatt
16:46 racket: [racket/master] dc clarification on `thread-suspend' - Matthew Flatt
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18:33 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/mF9xh2
18:33 racket: [racket/master] redex: adjust the 'horizontal rule-pict-style so that it doesn't add space after the last rule... - Robby Findler
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22:18 (topic) -: Racket: http://racket-lang.org/ -- mflatt interview: http://twit.tv/floss167/ -- Come to RacketCon: July 23-24 -- logs: http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs/
22:18 (names) -: gabot bremner_ flazz neilv ckrailo littlebobby sheikra dnolen fmu realitygrill forelle eli bugQ wtetzner twem2 martinhex rgee snorble activedecay sir_lewk Lajla mario-goulart qha stchang DT`` em Utkarsh _p4bl0 ohwow danking hyko cky cipher stamourv Nafai janne petey-aw` friscosam tonyg rapacity drewr ec|detached zakwilson @ChanServ offby1 ve mattmight rudybot shachaf askhader sethalves clklein penryu blomqvist tomku stride samth_away
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