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00:27 PLT_Notify: racket: master Ryan Culpepper * cd108c6 (3 files in 2 dirs): document undocumented exports (unstable)
00:27 PLT_Notify: racket: master Ryan Culpepper * ced7739 (2 files in 2 dirs): remove undocumented export (macro-debugger)
00:27 PLT_Notify: racket: master Ryan Culpepper * 5ca09ee (2 files in 1 dirs): document undocumented exports (data)
00:27 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits ee6fa14...5ca09ee - http://bit.ly/gdF4lr
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04:30 Blkt: good day everyone
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04:37 EM03: good day Blkt
04:42 Blkt: hi :D
04:46 EM03: you wouldn't happen to be a web developer who uses scheme would you? hehe
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04:57 Blkt: EM03: no sorry :D
04:58 Blkt: but I'll be glad to help if needed
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08:28 Eren: is there a vim extension that does the same functionality on highlighting as DrRacket?
08:29 Eren: I want vim to highlight the code as I write brackets
08:29 Eren: I could't find it via google search, maybe there are people using this kind of functionality wit vim
08:31 bremner_: I would guess the answer is yes, but that the support is not as good as emacs. I remember some discussion along these lines in #scheme
08:33 Eren: bremner_: I use a plugin for brackets. When I am on one bracket, it shows the function definition that it refers to
08:33 Eren: however, it does not highlight
08:34 bremner_: I don't use vim, so I can't offer more concrete help.  Maybe try asking in #scheme? it is not that racket specific, I guess.
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09:34 tauntaun: I'm teaching computer science to a group of gifted young adolescents, and a couple of them are stuck on the idea that Java is "real" programming, whereas Scheme/Racket, which is what I'm using for the course, is approximately a joke.  Both of these kids know adults in industry, who don't seem to have heard of Scheme, ML, Haskell, Erlang, Scala, or other good languages, and from whom it's clear the kids have learned the contemptuous attit
09:34 tauntaun: ude.  Can anyone suggest a way to combat it?
09:34 ohwow: tell them that `industry' is boring and anti-fun
09:35 ohwow: maybe you can show them various algorithms implemented in scheme and java
09:35 ohwow: and they'll get the difference
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09:36 tauntaun: Yes, that's a fine idea.  But then I'd have to teach them Scheme *and* enough Java to make the comparison.
09:36 ohwow: ah
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10:00 EM03: can you map urls directly with the racket web server?
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10:40 EM03: anyone? not much docs on this
10:51 rekahsoft: hi all..what are the main differences between racket and "scheme"..i know racket supports both R5RS and R6RS scheme but as far as i know there are quiet a few differences..
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11:43 (nick) samth_away -> samth
11:46 samth: rekahsoft, Scheme is a family of languages, some of which are standardized
11:47 samth: Racket is member of that broad family of languages, in the sense that it's descended from various Scheme dialects
11:47 samth: tauntaun, just show the Java code -- they'll be scared
11:47 samth: :)
11:48 samth: also, if you have them write cool programs, they'll lose the "real programming" thing
11:48 samth: at least, that's my experience teaching
11:52 tauntaun: samth: Thanks.   We are beginning to write cooler programs now (an RPG, which I hope will become multi-threaded soon).  But my fear is that they'll see the ugly Java and think that all that busy type annotation and ugliness is somehow more adult, or closer to what is done in industry.  I think I'll just encourage the two sceptics to teach themselves Java over the summer, and maybe that'll show them the tradeoff.  We'll see how it goes.
11:54 samth: my experience is that if you show the same code in both (and pick a good example) the students aren't inclined to prefer java
11:54 samth: for example, when we show the derivative function in multiple languages
11:54 tauntaun: or quicksort
11:54 samth: the students are clear on how the Java code is crazy
11:54 samth: higher-order functions are good for this
11:54 tauntaun: Sure.
11:54 tauntaun: Of course that still means that I have to teach them some Java, if only to be able to compare.
11:54 tauntaun: And that costs time and energy.
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11:55 samth: you can just show the code, without teaching it
11:55 tauntaun: OK...perhaps I'll try that.
11:55 samth: say that there have been questions about why not teach java
11:55 samth: and say that the reason is that we can do so much more in Racket, in so much less code
11:55 samth: and show an example
11:56 tauntaun: Btw (tangential but related), I've heard people predict that F# and Scala will fail to supplant C# and Java because the latter two are beginning to incorporate enough functional features to remain hegemonic.  Any thoughts?
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12:00 bremner_: well, sometimes just adding things doesn't improve a language. see C++.
12:01 bremner_: of course, what succeeds in industry and what is good are mostly orthogonal
12:01 Fade: all of the languages listed still have too much syntax. :)
12:02 Fade: homoiconicity is the Ur-Feature.
12:03 bremner_: Is there a nice writeup of cool things you can do with macros that you cannot do/approximate with higher order functions?
12:04 Fade: sure, you cannot control the evaluation of the arguments to higher order functions.
12:05 bremner_: true. But HOFs plus lazy evaluation seem to do the obvious stuff to me.
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12:06 bremner_: obviously you have more control with macros.
12:06 samth: bremner_, there isn't an all-in-one-place writeup
12:07 Fade: paul graham's book "On Lisp" is a pretty good one-place writeup on the why's how's and wherefor's of macros.
12:07 samth: but some of the recent racket papers have citations/links to a lot of examples
12:07 Fade: 'course, not scheme focused.
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12:07 samth: bremner_, lazy evaluation with functions can handle placing computation in a new dynamic context
12:08 samth: but that's mostly the least interesting thing to do with macros
12:08 samth: the interesting bits of macros are about changing the static semantics
12:08 samth: or providing new languages entirely
12:09 samth: for example, the introduction to this paper -- http://j.mp/langlib -- has a lot of references to interesting things built with macros
12:11 bremner_: ok, that looks approximately like the kind of thing I was looking for, I'll have a read.
12:11 samth: ryan culpepper's dissertation also has a bunch of cites in the intro: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/dissertation-culpepper.pdf
12:11 samth: (with lots of overlap, obviously)
12:11 Fade: is there some hack available to get emacs command keys in drracket?
12:12 samth: Fade, you can get a bunch of them by turning of "keybindings in menus" in the preferences
12:12 Fade: thanks. i'll try that out
12:13 bremner_: I've worked through about half of PLAI, but that doesn't really rely on macros, except to implement it's own dialect.  It seemed like it would be easy to most of that stuff in Haskell.
12:13 bremner_: "that stuff" = chapters of plai I read.
12:13 Fade: turing complete language is turing complete :)
12:13 bremner_: I did say _easy_
12:14 bremner_: maybe mutation would be less convenient.
12:14 samth: bremner_, also see: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/369-s10/Transcript/mm.html
12:14 samth: bremner_, probably the first part of PLAI doesn't rely heavily on macros, except in the sense that the whole PLAI language is built with macros
12:15 stamourv: Eren: jonrafkind has a planet package that adds racket support to vi, I believe
12:15 samth: for example, neither pattern matching as in `cases' nor the `define-type' form are built-in to racket
12:15 samth: those are both created with macros
12:15 Fade: macros are the historical reason why lisp has been the language designer's workbench.
12:15 bremner_: samth: understood. But transparent to the student.
12:15 Fade: look at the languages bootstrapped on lisp
12:16 Fade: smalltalk, prolog, erlang via prolog, I think the early versions of haskell?
12:16 Fade: if you consider python and ruby as lispy in intention then the list gets longer.
12:16 samth: bremner_, the point of PLAI is to teach of PL, of which macros are a small-but-important part
12:17 bremner_: sure. It's just really the only thing I've done with racket/scheme
12:18 samth: right
12:18 samth: but if you think of it as "much of ML/Haskell, but as a library", it seems more impressive
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12:20 bremner_: agreed.
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12:25 samth: jonrafkind, what's the status of release notes?
12:25 jonrafkind: sent to eli
12:25 jonrafkind: hes doing something with them
12:26 samth: why not to the list?
12:26 bremner_: jonrafkind: btw, there is a debian bug for src:racket that has a desktop file in it. Maybe something to start from, if you want.
12:26 jonrafkind: because the protocol is for me to send it to eli
12:26 samth: ooh, i want a .desktop file!
12:26 jonrafkind: bremner_, ok
12:26 samth: right now gnome-shell lists drracket as <unknown> in alt-tab
12:27 jonrafkind: :p
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12:27 bremner_: the luddite debian guy is not running gnome ;)
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12:27 jonrafkind: well at least hes running X..
12:28 mithos28: when I run the script run in the collects/tests/typed-scheme directory I get an error about an unbound identifier -PosInt. Is there another way to run the tests?
12:28 bremner_: jonrafkind: true. I'm not luddite by debian standards ;)
12:28 samth: mithos28, 'racket run.rkt --help'
12:28 samth: and then choose one of the options
12:28 samth: I should just remove `run'
12:28 mithos28: same error
12:29 samth: then there's something wrong with your setup
12:29 mithos28: ok, I'll look into it but it doesn't look like something I changed
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12:30 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 28200e7 (1 files in 1 dirs): adjusted the plai docs so that the mutator language has everything documented in a way scribble can understand
12:30 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 626bef9 (1 files in 1 dirs): dont insist that names beginning with #% are documented
12:30 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 585dc9c...626bef9 - http://bit.ly/e93XlJ
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12:31 samth: mithos28, you can probably find the relevant file by doing 'raco make -v run.rkt'
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12:33 mithos28: samth: this is the error
12:33 mithos28: unit-tests/typecheck-tests.rkt:43:13: compile: unbound identifier in module in: -PosInt
12:33 samth: i'll check it out
12:34 samth: but drdr is clean at the moment for that file: http://drdr.racket-lang.org/22550/collects/tests/typed-scheme/unit-tests/typecheck-tests.rkt
12:34 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3mm4yd9
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12:37 PLT_Notify: racket: master Jon Rafkind * d859642 (1 files in 1 dirs): remove honu from docs check - http://bit.ly/fs0bw9
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12:38 mithos28: samth: I reverted back to the PLT tree and it still has the same bug
12:38 samth: mithos28, weird
12:41 samth: mithos28, it's working for me with the current git master
12:42 mithos28: ok, Im trying to get the master HEAD, but having trouble with git. I'll see what happens then.
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12:44 samth: mithos28, i suspect that which git version you have isn't the problem
12:44 samth: since nothing has changed there recently
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12:55 Eren: stamourv: thanks for informing of support for VI
12:55 Eren: but I am curious about whether there is a working plugin
12:55 jonrafkind: for drracket?
12:55 Eren: no, vi
12:55 Eren: for syntax highligting like drracket
12:56 jonrafkind: i just use set lisp
12:57 Eren: oh, I also mean highligting the required part when using brackets
12:57 Eren: for example while I am writing "(define (foo", when I close with ) "(foo)" should be highligted
12:58 Eren: I don't know the exact name of this, I guess it is just "highlighting"? :)
12:58 jonrafkind: well vim7 will at least highlight matching parentheses for you
12:58 jonrafkind: set showmatch, i think
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13:01 PLT_Notify: racket: master Stevie Strickland * f5de8bd (3 files in 2 dirs): Move scmxlated source for slatex into private. ... - http://bit.ly/f2rQYo
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13:13 mithos28: samth: found the mistake, I was using 5.1 racket to run the tests instead of the git racket
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13:13 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 604960f (3 files in 1 dirs): places: re-enable (and re-ignore) SIGCHLD in a fork()ed process ... - http://bit.ly/fuPPbO
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13:13 samth: ah, that makes sense
13:13 Fade: does racket compile to machine code?
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13:13 PLT_Notify: racket: master Casey Klein * b3f45d3 (2 files in 2 dirs): Refactors to eliminate copied code
13:13 PLT_Notify: racket: master Casey Klein * 1d1cdd0 (4 files in 3 dirs): Adds a form like term-let but using Redex patterns
13:13 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 604960f...1d1cdd0 - http://bit.ly/ifUzXv
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13:15 samth: Fade, yes
13:16 jonrafkind: :p.. Fade racket is JIT compiled at runtime to machine code
13:16 jonrafkind: its not compiled to a native executable at compile time, like C or whatever
13:16 Fade: okay. I'm usually using common lisp, so that's what I'm used to.
13:19 tauntaun: Fade, can Python really be considered "lispy in intention", considering van Rossum has said he doesn't ever want it to be a functional language?
13:20 jonrafkind: it already has higher order functions..
13:20 tauntaun: yes, but van Rossum himself said that the hof's are really nothing more than syntactic sugar.
13:21 jonrafkind: sugar for what
13:21 jonrafkind: lambda lifting?
13:21 tauntaun: dunno
13:21 jonrafkind: to be a lisp it seems that code=data is a requirement, to be functional all you need is higher order functions, imo
13:22 tauntaun: I agree.
13:22 tauntaun: With both.
13:25 tauntaun: ...but actually Guido himself says Lisp is not a functional language. (?)
13:29 samth: and we should listen to Guido on languages why?
13:34 askhader: Aoh!
13:34 askhader: What Lisp?
13:37 eli: samth: Do you want to do that?  Jon's list is not really great, and I'm half dead.
13:37 Fade: tauntaun: well, i wouldn't call python a lisp per say, but it definitely is informed by lisp in its adoption of higher order and anonymous functions.
13:38 Fade: lisp itself isn't about 'functional' vs. 'not functional' in the mathematical sense.
13:39 Fade: common lisp forex is very much "The Lisp", but it's not focused on being functional either.
13:39 jonrafkind: eli, how much stuff is missing?
13:39 Fade: the fact that it can be used in a functional way is an emergent property of lispiness, in the same way that object orientation was.
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14:00 jonrafkind: ok samth ill send out a release blurb soon
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14:47 samth: eli, i don't want to do that, i just want to do my entries
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14:59 samth: clklein, yay for redex-let, btw
15:01 clklein: samth: Oh, good to hear someone else likes it. I can't remember ever wanting it myself, but I took David's word for it.
15:01 samth: clklein, i wrote it myself in one of my redex models
15:02 samth: also a redex-y version of `match'
15:03 clklein: Ah, that one didn't occur to me either, but I can imagine using it.
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15:12 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * d066175 (0 files in 0 dirs): Removed tests at Chongkai's request
15:12 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 2a7ca22 (3 files in 1 dirs): adjust picturing-programs to make declarations so that scribble can find the documented things
15:12 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 1d1cdd0...2a7ca22 - http://bit.ly/iaa0o0
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15:32 rekahsoft: samth: thanks for the info you gave me a little earlier about the similarities between scheme and racket
15:32 samth: rekahsoft, no problem
15:32 samth: you can see here: http://racket-lang.org/new-name.html for more info
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15:37 PLT_Notify: racket: master Vincent St-Amour * 7800e41 (2 files in 1 dirs): Fix benchmarking for bigloo to work with its default options.
15:37 PLT_Notify: racket: master Eric Dobson * 80fa8d3 (6 files in 4 dirs): Beginning of ephemeron patch
15:37 PLT_Notify: racket: master Eric Dobson * c221c07 (1 files in 1 dirs): made ephemeron test correct
15:37 PLT_Notify: racket: master Vincent St-Amour * 9740d55 (4 files in 3 dirs): No need for EphemeronTop since ephemerons are covariant. ...
15:37 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 2a7ca22...9740d55 - http://bit.ly/dSQnCv
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15:52 samth: jonrafkind, do you even read the logs!
15:52 samth: ?
15:52 jonrafkind: yes, do you?
15:53 jonrafkind: if you want a better summary, write better commit messages
15:53 samth: is that really all you found?
15:53 jonrafkind: i threw out anything that looked like a bugfix
15:53 samth: for example, vincent committed a huge(!) refactoring of Typed Racket's handling of the numeric tower
15:54 jonrafkind: oh yea, i accidentally put that in the last release notes I think
15:54 samth: really?
15:54 jonrafkind: anyway, is that a bugfix or a major feature?
15:54 jonrafkind: i mean, is that internal or external
15:54 samth: a major feature
15:54 samth: and it does not appear in the last release notes
15:55 samth: also, aren't you generating this from git?
15:55 jonrafkind: sorry, i meant i put it in the suggested notes somewhere
15:55 jonrafkind: and it was removed later
15:55 jonrafkind: its a litlte confusing because there are commits after the release branch is made, some with 'merge to 5.1'
15:55 jonrafkind: anyway, just reply to the email
15:55 samth: if you're doing this from the git logs, then last release shouldn't affect anything
15:56 samth: but aren't you generating this by doing a git log between the tip of the release branch and the last release?
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16:59 lnostdal: hi guys, i'm wondering what sort of GC racket uses? .. is it precise?
16:59 jonrafkind: yes
17:00 lnostdal: nice
17:00 jonrafkind: and generational
17:00 lnostdal: ok
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17:53 DusX: I am interested in learning racket, butr I have 1 requirment I am not sure it fulfills?
17:53 DusX: Can I do serial communication in racket? I would like to communicate to arduino boards.
17:55 (quit) sstrickl: Quit: sstrickl
17:56 samth: DusX, you would probably just use the FFI to communicate with whatever the relevant library is
17:59 DusX: this is what I was looking for, is a serial communication library
17:59 DusX: I wasn't able to find reference to any such library in the docs
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18:02 DusX: Since serial communication is a hardware thing I wasn't/am not sure how FFI would allow this?
18:03 samth: DusX, there are lots of serial communication libraries
18:03 samth: you would need to call out to one via the ffi
18:03 DusX: so a C++ or C# library will work for me?
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18:04 DusX: I would especially be interested in the library from openframeworks.org
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18:07 samth: it's easier to use a C library than a C++ library
18:07 samth: a C# library would be hard
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18:08 jonrafkind: DusX, .cc :p
18:08 DusX: sorry jonrafkind?
18:08 jonrafkind: openframeworks.cc
18:08 jonrafkind: .org is a squatters page
18:08 DusX: ah.. you are right . sorry
18:11 DusX: if c++ is difficult that does make this a bit of an problem then.. I really was hoping to create a nice RESTfull webserver for arduino communication.
18:12 bremner_: you could wrap the C++ in C
18:13 jonrafkind: as long as the datatypes it uses are simple
18:14 bremner_: right
18:15 DusX: Yeah, I was hoping to learn 1 language, I haven't work much in C of C++. Mostly PHP, Lingo,and actionscript.
18:19 DusX: PHP has terrible serial support, so I wanted to find a new tool. I loved that Racket had a webserver feature, as well as good visual features.
18:20 jonrafkind: I guess C# is the only language that has ok c++ interopability
18:20 jonrafkind: but even then it probably only works well with visual studio produced c++
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18:24 DusX: hey, well thanks for the feedback, looks like I will need to consider a little more how to approach my problem
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18:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master Jay McCarthy * c47a16c (1 files in 1 dirs): All public bindings come from this module
18:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master Jay McCarthy * 38bd829 (0 files in 0 dirs): Moving...
18:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master Jay McCarthy * c9286ce (0 files in 0 dirs): Moving...
18:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master Jay McCarthy * f96eb90 (1 files in 1 dirs): These are the only modules that are intended for usage
18:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master Jay McCarthy * e09b0ed (2 files in 2 dirs): Adding some docs and restricting test to valid interface
18:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master Jay McCarthy * 5f1b390 (0 files in 0 dirs): moving
18:49 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 9740d55...5f1b390 - http://bit.ly/ik09Rx
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19:00 EM03: I'm having such a time, worse than the pascal days heh
19:02 bremner_: EM03: are you working through htdp.org
19:03 EM03: its not that I'm having an issue with ......its the docs on the web server part of racket
19:12 EM03: Hopefully this struggle will pay off
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19:14 PLT_Notify: racket: master Stephen Chang * 5d47e58 (1 files in 1 dirs): add Lazy Racket tests from Premiers cours de programmation avec Scheme (Roy) - http://bit.ly/gMFo2A
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20:46 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 8679afe (18 files in 9 dirs): clean up C part of build ...
20:46 PLT_Notify: racket: master Kevin Tew * a589ea4 (6 files in 4 dirs): [Places] added place-break primitive
20:46 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 5d47e58...a589ea4 - http://bit.ly/ihlqQq
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20:49 Senjai: is anyone able to help with mutable variables?\
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20:59 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthias Felleisen * 1993771 (1 files in 1 dirs): protocol damage noted - http://bit.ly/fBkRim
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21:29 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * d28d42a (1 files in 1 dirs): fix validator bug (to allow flonum-consuming proc to be cleared) ...
21:29 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 50509c1 (4 files in 2 dirs): free JIT & FFI code pages when a place exits
21:29 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 1993771...50509c1 - http://bit.ly/fVTZ4x
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21:36 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * a2e3116 (1 files in 1 dirs): fix code page unchaining - http://bit.ly/gUDloa
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22:19 EM03: just one last thing, if anyone here has used the web server in racket at all and knows more than I do I would love to chat about it for a few minutes
22:24 mithos28: EM03: I have but it has been a while.
22:24 EM03: if you anything anything its more than me mithos28
22:24 EM03: do you remember how you handled things that needed to be sorta "rest" ?  like that didn't need to have a continuation control flow?
22:25 mithos28: didn't, I used in an assignment explicitly for the continuations
22:26 EM03: its to the point I would send a batch of cookies to anyone who even could give me some direction
22:26 EM03: continuations although nice for static content is not ideal
22:27 mithos28: are you using apache in front of racket? Because that is what I have done for other servers
22:28 EM03: I can do that if need be
22:28 EM03: maybe nginx or lighttpd instead though
22:29 mithos28: I havn't used either of those, but they cannot be harder to setup than apache
22:30 EM03: but still i can't really use continuations ....i need to map url's to either some functions or some way, and I really hoped it had a method of doing this
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22:32 mithos28: I bet it can be done, but I am not the person to ask. Sorry I couldn't help.
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23:04 mithos28: are any typed racket devs around?
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