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09:47 hircus: greetings
09:47 hircus: I'm trying to get some Scheme-related MIME types updated in freedesktop.org's listings
09:48 Geisteskrankh: Holy check, scheme has an IANA mine type?
09:48 Geisteskrankh: mime*
09:48 Geisteskrankh: application/scm?
09:48 Geisteskrankh: What is it called.
09:48 hircus: is there a recommended MIME type for Racket code? fd.o already has text/x-scheme for *.scm
09:49 hircus: I'm adding *.ss to text/x-scheme as well, but am not sure whether we want Racket code to have exactly the same MIME type or not. since presumably .rkt files will not really run under generic Scheme interpreters
09:49 hircus: ("standards", heh. the test case I'm submitting has a different way of printing on Guile and Racket)
09:50 hircus: Geisteskrankh: you reckon text/x-scheme like other Scheme extensions?
09:51 Geisteskrankh: is text/x-scheme IANA registered?
09:51 Geisteskrankh: Who recommended text/x-scheme?
09:52 DT``: why do all the MIMEs have x- prepended to them?
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09:55 Geisteskrankh: DT``, because an x makes stuff cool.
09:55 Geisteskrankh: I once talked to one of the lead designers on XML.
09:55 Geisteskrankh: He said he originally wanted to call its something else.
09:55 Geisteskrankh: But the team disagreed.
09:55 Geisteskrankh: Because his name had no X in it.
09:55 Geisteskrankh: Ahaha
09:55 DT``: lol
09:55 jchico: hah, it needed to be XXXTREEEMEE
09:56 Geisteskrankh: I also have a nude pic of him, want some?
09:56 DT``: no, thanks.
09:56 Geisteskrankh: http://people.gnome.org/~jdub/2002/evolution/liam-nudism.jpg no really, it's quite decent.
09:56 Geisteskrankh: It's actually not nude.
09:56 Geisteskrankh: It's just surprising that he would feature himself like that on a site.
09:57 jchico: he should of waited until his beard got longer, he wouldn't need the sign.
09:58 Geisteskrankh: Dat iz true.
09:58 Geisteskrankh: Richard Stallman for the win.
09:58 bremner: don't hear that too often.
10:00 Geisteskrankh: The Richard Stallman part?
10:00 bremner: yeah.
10:00 hircus: Geisteskrankh: I'm guessing x stands for executable? who knows
10:00 Geisteskrankh: I like his quote on voluntary paedophilia and C++.
10:00 Geisteskrankh: hircus, it stands for Charles Xavier.
10:00 hircus: a lot of programming language MIME types has x-something
10:00 Geisteskrankh: No matter how much he denies it.
10:00 hircus: wow, what an ego :p
10:00 Geisteskrankh: hircus, he has always denied it
10:01 Geisteskrankh: that the X in X-Men is from his own name.
10:01 Geisteskrankh: Rather, it is from ther eXtraordinary Powers.
10:01 Geisteskrankh: Or something like that.
10:01 Geisteskrankh: Introducing mutants completely screwed the marvel universe, that is probably why they took them away.
10:05 DT``: human/x-mutant
10:06 Geisteskrankh: Ohhhh
10:07 Geisteskrankh: I thought Picard as Xavier was a bit weird.
10:07 Geisteskrankh: But then again
10:07 Geisteskrankh: seriously, superhero films
10:07 Geisteskrankh: it's silly enough in comic books.
10:07 Geisteskrankh: But that it's drawn makes you forget just how silly superheroes with superpowers really are.
10:08 Geisteskrankh: In fact, Picard as Picard was a bit weird, where does this French dude get this British accent.
10:14 hircus: oh gosh, yes. a Shakespearan actor to boot
10:15 Geisteskrankh: Yes yes.
10:15 Geisteskrankh: Ever noticed
10:15 Geisteskrankh: how about every English actor that speaks RP gets a knighthood
10:15 hircus: who drinks Earl Grey tea at a specific temperature. the only French reference I remember is in the time-travel episode where we see the retired Picard as a vintner
10:15 Geisteskrankh: acting skills are irrelevant, as long as you speak RP it's okay.
10:15 Geisteskrankh: Well, his brother is called Robbert
10:15 Geisteskrankh: pronounced really french.
10:15 hircus: well, you'll get a plum job as a BBC reporter. though they're trying to regionalize now
10:15 Geisteskrankh: And he sometimes shouts 'merde' apparently.
10:15 hircus: Rob-"baird"?
10:15 Geisteskrankh: Yeah
10:15 hircus: he does? ah
10:16 Geisteskrankh: Also, cannon contradicts itself on that.
10:16 Geisteskrankh: At other points, it claims that French is extinct, but remembered as a langauge of class and civilization.
10:16 Geisteskrankh: With all those universal translators going on.
10:16 Geisteskrankh: I wonder if he doesn't just speak French all the time.
10:16 Geisteskrankh: but the universal translator translates it to RP.
10:16 Geisteskrankh: Maybe Bashir speaks Arabic.
10:17 Geisteskrankh: But the universal translator makes it RP.
10:17 Geisteskrankh: That would be funny, if it translates all terran languages to RP.
10:18 hircus: well, Sisko does not speak RP
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11:03 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 1a6dacc (1 files in 1 dirs): clarify `path-element->string' docs
11:03 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 3fb4561 (1 files in 1 dirs): scribble/manual: document `this-obj'
11:03 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * cf69cb2 (6 files in 5 dirs): special treatment of void as 'inferred-name property ...
11:03 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 0101d12 (1 files in 1 dirs): hyperlink #<void> and #<undefined> in docs
11:03 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 5d481c2 (3 files in 1 dirs): fix inexact number printing when LC_NUMERIC locale is not "C" ...
11:03 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 9917451 (2 files in 1 dirs): Scribble: experiment with non-bold as syntactic-form font
11:03 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 02f6ef0...9917451 - http://bit.ly/icNewa
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11:38 Fisherman: Hi
11:38 Fisherman: How do I make a case clause that matched (cons 1 2)?
11:39 Fisherman: i. e. how do I make the following return #t:
11:39 Fisherman: (case (cons 1 2) [(...) #t])
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11:55 DT``: Fisherman, we had a discussion yesterday in #scheme about that.
11:55 DT``: (btw, that would be (case (cons 1 2) ((1 . 2) #t)) )
11:56 DT``: *)))
11:56 DT``: rudybot, (case (cons 1 2) ((1 . 2) 'yes) (else 'no))
11:56 rudybot: DT``: your sandbox is ready
11:56 rudybot: DT``: error: eval:1:18: case: bad syntax (not a datum sequence) at: (1 . 2) in: (case (cons 1 2) ((1 . 2) (quote yes)) (else (quote no)))
11:56 DT``: rudybot, (case (cons 1 2) (((1 . 2)) 'yes) (else 'no))
11:56 rudybot: DT``: ; Value: no
11:56 DT``: mh.
11:57 DT``: case uses eqv?, that doesn't work on lists.
12:03 Fisherman: yeah, case uses eqv?, i found out
12:03 Fisherman: so it's not possible, right?
12:03 DT``: yea.
12:04 DT``: Fisherman,
12:04 DT``: you can use match.
12:04 DT``: (if you're allowed to use it)
12:04 DT``: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/match.html?q=match#(form._((lib._racket/match..rkt)._match))
12:05 DT``: rudybot, (match (cons 1 2) ((cons 1 2) 'yes) (_ 'no))
12:05 rudybot: DT``: ; Value: yes
12:07 Fisherman: im using an if-statement now
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12:10 Fisherman: DT``: What do you mean, "if you're allowed to use it"?
12:11 DT``: if you're a student or soimething.
12:11 DT``: *some
12:11 Fisherman: oh
12:11 Fisherman: I am a student, but that's not why im using racket right now :)
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13:14 Geisteskrankh: hircus, yeah, but Sisko was born in the US.
13:14 Geisteskrankh: So maybe all people that don't speak English but a Terran language get RP'ed by the system.
13:25 Geisteskrankh: DT``,
13:26 Geisteskrankh: what do you think of this one (case <random-expression> [x : foo, y : bar, z : baz] <else-clause>) where [key : value, key2 : value2 ...] is reader syntax for some record-like thing.
13:34 DT``: Racket has (match <expr> ((constructor positional parameters) <true>) ... <else>)
13:35 DT``: in `case' it wouldn't work because case sucks so much.
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13:44 Geisteskrankh: DT``, nahh, you use case when you want to use eqv?
13:44 Geisteskrankh: I also think that using such things without discussing the identity function is a bit useless.
13:45 Geisteskrankh: functions like remove or find in lists.
13:45 Geisteskrankh: Might as well just supply a predicate instead of an item to compare.
13:45 Geisteskrankh: (remove (lambda (x) (equal? x random-list)) another-random-list)
13:46 DT``: Geisteskrankh, how many times did you do (cond ((string? x) ...) ((integer? x) ...) ((char? x) ...))?
13:47 DT``: I'd like `case' to treat identifiers as predicates.
13:47 DT``: so that (case <expr> (string? ...) (integer? ...)) does that.
13:47 DT``: else, it's almost useless.
13:48 Geisteskrankh: case doesn't do that either right?
13:48 DT``: rudybot, (case 2 (number? 'number) (string? 'string) (else 'no))
13:48 rudybot: DT``: error: eval:1:9: case: bad syntax (not a datum sequence) at: number? in: (case 2 (number? (quote number)) (string? (quote string)) (else (quote no)))
13:49 Geisteskrankh: Case wants a list there.
13:49 Geisteskrankh: where you have number?
13:49 Geisteskrankh: rudybot, (case #\c ((#\a #\b) 'no) ((#\c #\d) 'yap))
13:49 rudybot: Geisteskrankh: your sandbox is ready
13:49 rudybot: Geisteskrankh: ; Value: yap
13:50 DT``: (case <expr> (<list-of-quoted-datums> <true>) ...)
13:50 DT``: case is good to match characters and symbols.
13:50 DT``: nothing more.
13:51 DT``: other extension: a #:predicate key.
13:54 Geisteskrankh: And numbers
13:54 Geisteskrankh: Anyway, you in a lot of situations want to limit yourself to symbols.
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13:58 offby1: a simple hash table might be a reasonable substitute.
13:59 Fisherman: god damnit!
13:59 Fisherman: i just deleted the wrong file >.<
13:59 Geisteskrankh: offby1, that's what I was pointing at.
14:00 Geisteskrankh: With the record thingy.
14:01 offby1: Geisteskrankh: I hate having to admit that you and I think at all the same way.
14:01 Geisteskrankh: offby1, why?
14:01 offby1: no reason
14:01 Geisteskrankh: Can I hug you?
14:02 offby1: There! Oppression!  You see him oppressing me?
14:03 Fisherman: is it possible to make a copy of a namespace?
14:03 DT``: The Perfect `case' (version 1.0)
14:03 DT``: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120480
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14:11 offby1: Fisherman: invoke the sacred name "eli" and I predict you'll have an answer reasonably soon.
14:11 Fisherman: eli?
14:11 Fisherman: eli: Is it possible to make a copy of a namespace?
14:11 offby1: good, now we wait
14:12 Fisherman: hehe :)
14:12 offby1: rudybot: seen eli
14:12 rudybot: *offby1: eli was seen in/on #racket one day ago, saying "samth: ?", and then eli was seen in/on #racket one day ago, saying "IIRC, MIT Scheme was doing it for ages."
14:13 DT``: offby1, so eli is Racket's omniscent magical god?
14:15 offby1: well, he knows a lot about namespaces, at least
14:15 bremner: racket is not monotheistic
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14:41 Geisteskrankh hugs offby1 anyway.
14:42 Geisteskrankh: And slowly sneaks under his clothes.
14:43 offby1 furiously rubs his cheek
14:43 bremner avert's his eyes
14:43 bremner: err, averts
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16:20 coyotama sighs, is a stupid newb. he cant even learn something designed for learning ;~;
16:20 coyotama is trying to learn racket. is having trouble building a ping server (port 7) at http://piratepad.net/coyoandtekk
16:23 coyotama: rudybot: seen eli
16:23 rudybot: coyotama: eli was seen in/on #racket two days ago, saying "samth: ?", and then eli was seen in/on #racket one day ago, saying "IIRC, MIT Scheme was doing it for ages."
16:34 coyotama shyly waves
16:34 coyotama: hai..
16:34 offby1: coyotama: I'm not sure that a ping server is easy.
16:35 offby1: racket makes tcp and udp easy, but I think ping is lower-level than either.
16:35 offby1: oh, you meant "echo", not "ping".  Very different.
16:35 coyotama: it works!
16:35 coyotama: ah.
16:35 coyotama: sorry.
16:36 offby1: heh
16:37 coyotama: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4975626/screenshot10.png
16:38 offby1: I GAVE HIM LIFE!!
16:38 coyotama: XD
16:39 offby1: I don't think I've ever written a TCP server with racket.
16:39 offby1: however I've sure enough written a client:
16:39 offby1: rudybot: introduce yourself to coyotama
16:39 rudybot: *offby1: I'm not sure that a ping server is easy.
16:39 offby1: well, I just said that.
16:39 coyotama snugs people
16:39 offby1 backs away slowly
16:39 Geisteskrankh: offby1, can rudybot also reduce arbitrary lambda expressions?
16:39 coyotama: well, the echo server was easy enough
16:40 offby1: Geisteskrankh: I don't even know what that means.
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16:52 Geisteskrankh: rudybot, what do you think of Picard's accent?
16:52 rudybot: Geisteskrankh: Apple's iPad is just a copy of Capt Picard's PADD.
16:52 Geisteskrankh: Ahahahaha
16:52 Geisteskrankh: Who said that
16:58 coyotama: XD
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16:59 offby1: Geisteskrankh: "2010-02-23T19:53:33Z" "parolang" "#emacs"
16:59 Geisteskrankh: offby1, it collects from other channels too?
16:59 offby1: yes, the channels it's on.
17:00 offby1: rudybot is on channel(s): #scheme #racket #emacs ##cinema
17:00 offby1: basically the channels I hang out in :)
17:00 Geisteskrankh: offby1, I'm not on the first cause they banned me.
17:00 Geisteskrankh: Bitchez.
17:00 offby1: why do I attract admires who get banned?
17:00 Geisteskrankh: offby1, come to #linguistics and bring your bot.
17:00 offby1: admirers
17:00 offby1: heh
17:00 Geisteskrankh: offby1, I don't admire you, not until you use continuations
17:00 Geisteskrankh: I'm the official channel mascot on #linguistics apparently.
17:01 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28
17:04 bremner: Geisteskrankh: Are you Lajla?
17:04 Geisteskrankh: bremner, of course.
17:06 (nick) Fisherma1 -> Fisherman
17:06 coyotama: :3
17:07 coyotama smiles
17:07 coyotama waves, "hai, Geisteskrankh, offby1, Fisherman"
17:08 Fisherman: oh hai
17:09 coyotama: :3
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17:26 Fisherman: how should I do this:
17:26 Fisherman: 1) read global definitions from some files
17:27 Fisherman: 2) run some code from other files
17:27 Fisherman: and make sure that what is run from one file doesnt affect some other file, but still make them share the definitions
17:28 Fisherman: currently I use a namespace to run the defines and then run the code in that namespace
17:28 (quit) jchico: Quit: Page closed
17:29 Fisherman: However one could use set! to change a definition :/
17:29 Fisherman: I dont know how to "copy" the global namespace
17:30 Fisherman: does it make sense?
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17:46 offby1: nope
17:46 offby1: what problem are you trying to solve?
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18:05 eli: Fisherman: You should use the module system.  Using namespaces will involve a lot of blood spitting and will get you something less convenient and less robust.
18:08 Fisherman: eli: how should I use the module system?
18:09 eli: ... write modules.
18:09 eli: Just start files with `#lang racket/base', or something similar.
18:11 Fisherman: so how do I get the definitions from a variable number of files into one module?
18:11 Fisherman: And how do I run code fron a y other files with the definitions from that module?
18:13 offby1: Fisherman: sounds like you'd benefit from reading the racket docs about modules.
18:13 eli +1s offby1
18:13 Fisherman: ok here's what im doing
18:13 offby1: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/modules.html
18:13 offby1 (expt 10)s eli
18:13 Fisherman: I know what modules are, I'm already using them
18:13 offby1: now, is that eli^10, or 10^eli?  And which is better?
18:14 offby1: Fisherman: then we simply don't understand what you're trying to do :)
18:14 eli: So what's the problem?
18:14 Fisherman: anyway, what I have in different files is lists like this:
18:14 Fisherman: (<id> <title> <body> [<defs>])
18:15 offby1: data
18:15 offby1: well, I guess it depends on what "defs" is.
18:15 Fisherman: where <id> is a number, <title> is a string, <body> is a tree where some leafs are "run" leafs with code to be executed, and <defs> is a list of (define ...)s
18:15 offby1: hm
18:15 Fisherman: so what I want is to read every (define ...) from every file
18:16 offby1: and evaluate it?
18:16 eli: What's the reason for that syntax?
18:16 Fisherman: then I want to evaluate every "run" leaf
18:17 eli: What's the reason for that syntax?
18:17 offby1: heh
18:17 Fisherman: but I want all (define ...)s to be evaluated
18:17 Fisherman: what do you mean?
18:17 offby1: I said "heh" because eli and I are double-teaming you :)
18:17 Fisherman: it's for writing my blog easier
18:18 Fisherman: what do you mean by "what's the reason..."
18:18 Fisherman: i meant
18:18 eli: Fisherman: Is there any reason to have a syntax where definitions are burried inside data rather than use the language as is?
18:18 offby1: Fisherman: can you paste some of those files -- small enough for us to comprehend, but large enough to demonstrate what you're trying to do?
18:18 eli: Yeah, that would help.
18:19 Fisherman: http://reynir.dk/racket.xhtml
18:19 Fisherman: scroll down and you will see some example code
18:19 Fisherman: the text is written in danish, but racket is racket
18:20 eli: What's `run'?
18:20 Fisherman: run is something that is supposed to be evaluated
18:20 eli: Why are `pre', `blockquote' etc not evaluated?
18:20 Fisherman: so the code in the middle post is used to produce that post
18:21 offby1: I think Fisherman wants to use Scribble :)
18:21 Fisherman: eli, because I only evaluate stuff in 'run
18:21 offby1: just a guess
18:21 eli: offby1: (yeah, I'll sneak it soon...)
18:21 offby1: I can't read Danish, but I suspect he wants to have some code whose text appears in the browser, _and_ whose output _also_ appears
18:22 offby1: eli: you're doin' the Socratic Method thing, I guess
18:22 eli: Fisherman: You didn't answer my question...
18:22 Fisherman: eli: what question, sorry
18:22 eli: Fisherman: specifically, things like `blockquote' could be just functions, like anything else.
18:23 eli: This gives you the immediate benefit of avoiding the distinction that you're trying to get with that `run'.
18:23 eli: And in fact, that's exactly how the code that makes our web pages works.
18:23 Fisherman: it's an xexpr
18:23 Fisherman: i guess
18:23 eli: Each html tag is provided as a binding, and you just use them as functions.
18:23 eli: http://git.racket-lang.org/plt/tree/HEAD:/collects/meta/web
18:27 Fisherman: ?
18:28 offby1: Fisherman: I confess I didn't see the point of that page, either.
18:34 Fisherman: okay that looks nice
18:36 Fisherman: it's not what I want to do, though
18:37 offby1: if I understand correctly, what you're trying to do is surprisingly tricky.
18:37 yashton: Has anyone else run DrRacket for version 5.1 on Linux? I switched from 5.0.2 and compiled the 5.1 on my Ubuntu machine and it uses 95% processor time for any UI interaction, even simple things like scrolling. Looks really nice and pretty until you actually try and do anything...
18:37 Fisherman: one solution would be to collect the defs into a list and then make a new namespace for each file/post
18:38 Fisherman: yashton: I run 5.1 on linux
18:39 Fisherman: I tried scrolling, 50 % cpu usage or something like that
18:39 Fisherman: way too much, i think
18:39 offby1: yashton: I do it all the time
18:39 offby1: yashton: .... although I don't use the GUI much.
18:40 offby1: yashton: racket often spends an insane amount of time building documentation the first time you run something ... I wonder if that's it.
18:40 yashton: Well, I've been using gedit for code editing and scripts for compilation/testing, but I wanted to use it to debug and check my parens.
18:40 Fisherman: yashton: I have experienced one bug: if you press check syntax on a program with correct syntax, the program freezes
18:41 offby1: :-(
18:41 yashton: well, I have closed the program after a minute or two every time, so I may not have given it a chance to finish building its doc.
18:42 Fisherman: Also when I use the debugger I have to click on the program input field in between "step" clicks
18:42 yashton: But in general, the high utilization is only present when I'm interacting with the gui
18:42 Fisherman: effectively making stepping a pain in the ass :)
18:42 Fisherman: yashton: I read that the GUI stuff has been rewritten in 5.1
18:43 yashton: Fisherman: that's what I saw on the blog, and it looks really nice now, but I haven't found any mention of performance issues on any mailing lists or blogs, so I'm wondering if this might just be an installation specific problem.
18:44 offby1: yashton: doesn't sound like it's building docs, then, but it probably wouldn't hurt to let it crunch for a while anyway.
18:45 Fisherman: I compiled racket without paying too much attention..
18:45 yashton: is there a bug reporting system for racket? it might have a fix if someone else has had the problem, and I could submit one if there isn't.
18:46 bremner: yeah, you can use DrRacket to report bugs.
18:47 bremner: or there is a web site
18:47 bremner: maybe bugs.racket-lang.org ?
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19:01 eli: Fisherman: If you look there, you'll see the sources of our web pages, which follow that approach.
19:01 eli: A natural way to go on with that would solve your problem -- since your files will basically be just "plain" racket code.
19:02 eli: For example, there's no need for all kinds of weird namespace issues -- just use internal definitions in the code -- everything is as usual.
19:02 eli: And to make things easy to write and the result tidy-looking, you also use a conventional solution: macros.
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19:16 eli: Fisherman: Here, try to run this code to see what I mean: http://tmp.barzilay.org/x
19:16 eli: (I suspect that the text describes `run', so it's not really relevant.)
19:16 eli: Also, I made some additional cleanups -- like using `file->string', which is easier than what you did.
19:17 eli: And I got rid of many `<br>'s in places that are not really needed.
19:23 Fisherman: eli: that looks cool
19:24 Fisherman: is it easy to combine several such files and output one html file?
19:25 eli: Fisherman: Of course -- read about the scribble syntax, and you'll see that what I wrote is just plain racket code.
19:25 (quit) vdrab: Quit: vdrab
19:25 Fisherman: ok
19:25 eli: This means that you use the usual tools to make up a single output file from multiple sources.
19:25 Fisherman: how so?
19:25 coyotama whimpers, "i've been googling the racket lang docs in vain for over 3 hours, and i still cant find how to read a line from a socket
19:26 coyotama: "
19:26 (nick) tauntaun -> tautuan_bubble_b
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19:26 eli: For example, put the `post' definition in some place, have multiple files require it and use it to write their posts, then have some other file that requires them all and produces the html output.
19:26 Fisherman: coyotama: (read-line <the socket port>) or something like that
19:26 coyotama: fisherman: o.O really? that easy?
19:26 coyotama tries this
19:27 Fisherman: eli: Well, what I wanted was to ./main.rkt <file1> <file2> ... <filen> and combine those files
19:28 Fisherman: I guess I still can do that
19:29 eli: Fisherman: It's not much different than main.rkt doing (require "<file1>" "<file2>") (render-blog-page)
19:29 eli: Or something like that.
19:34 Fisherman: it means I have to edit a file every time
19:34 coyotama sighs
19:34 coyotama: maybe this project of mine isnt best written in racket.
19:34 coyotama looks for another more suitable language
19:34 (part) coyotama
19:34 Fisherman: what's your project?
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19:40 eli: Fisherman: You can do the same with a simple wrapper shell script.
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20:01 Fisherman: how do you debug racklog code?
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20:27 tauntaun: Does Racket's web framework not support flash?
20:28 bremner: confusing. Those things
20:28 bremner: oops.
20:28 bremner: tauntaun: afaik your options are gnash and adobe
20:29 tauntaun: bremner: neither of which are in plt-help
20:29 (part) lakkris: "Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is"
20:31 tauntaun: bremner: never mind....meanwhile, we admire lakkris' ID
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20:49 tauntaun: Slightly off topic: What is the going hourly contract rate for a beginning programmer with a bachelor's degree in CS, say in Boston or NYC?
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