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02:14 Senjai: Lajla
02:14 Senjai: Midterm went well, Screwed up one function
02:14 Senjai: didn't figure out how to do it till last minute
02:52 Senjai: Lajla: ?
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05:29 Senjai: rudybot (define foo bar)
05:30 Senjai: rudybot: (define ircmsg "yall are dead...")
05:30 rudybot: Senjai: Done.
05:30 Senjai: rudybot: (display ircmsg)
05:30 rudybot: Senjai: ; stdout: "yall are dead..."
05:36 DT``: rudybot, (for-each (compose write symbol->string) (reverse '(P C I S)))
05:36 rudybot: DT``: your sandbox is ready
05:36 rudybot: DT``: ; stdout: "\"S\"\"I\"\"C\"\"P\""
05:36 DT``: rudybot, (for-each write (reverse '(P C I S)))
05:36 rudybot: DT``: ; stdout: "SICP"
05:36 DT``: cool.
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07:34 Lajla: Senjai, I was never really able to tell in advance if my grades were good or not.
07:34 Lajla: I got the feeling that it depended more on the corrector than my own correctness.
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07:40 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 0b496d5 (48 files in 2 dirs): a round of doc corrections from Gwyth - http://bit.ly/epheLq
07:40 (part) PLT_Notify
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09:11 Lajla: rudybot, (for-each (compose display symbol->string) (reverse '(P C I S)))
09:11 rudybot: Lajla: ; stdout: "SICP"
09:11 Lajla: DT``,
09:11 Lajla: Point about your thing is:
09:11 Lajla: rudybot, (for-each write '(H E L L O | | W O R L D !))
09:11 rudybot: Lajla: ; stdout: "HELLO| |WORLD!"
09:12 Lajla: can't just write out symbols which contain only a space.
09:12 DT``: rudybot, (display |Who needs strings anyway? Symbols are the future!|)
09:12 rudybot: DT``: error: reference to undefined identifier: |Who needs strings anyway? Symbols are the future!|
09:12 DT``: rudybot, (display '|Who needs strings anyway? Symbols are the future!|)
09:12 rudybot: DT``: ; stdout: "Who needs strings anyway? Symbols are the future!"
09:12 Lajla: rudybot, yeah, I mean, the use of display rather than write.
09:12 rudybot: Lajla: you can customise garak-display-splash to nil to stop it trying to display the splash, but it'll probably encounter similar problems with the buddy list
09:13 Lajla: DT``, ehhrr
09:13 Lajla: That was to you.
09:13 DT``: right.
09:13 DT``: rudybot, (loop (print (eval (read)))
09:13 rudybot: DT``: You can get leopard print underwear, and you can get edible underwear.  But you can't get edible leopard print underwear.  Something has gone wrong with captilalism.  -- Lore Brand Comics
09:13 DT``: rudybot, (loop (print (eval (read))))
09:13 rudybot: DT``: error: reference to undefined identifier: loop
09:14 DT``: :(
09:14 Lajla: CL man
09:14 Lajla: We have tail recursion
09:15 DT``: rudybot, (define-syntax rec (syntax-rules () ((rec (f . x) . b) (letrec ((f (λ x . b))) f))))
09:15 rudybot: DT``: Done.
09:15 DT``: rudybot, (rec (loop x) (loop (print (eval (read)))))
09:15 rudybot: DT``: ; Value: #<procedure:loop>
09:16 Lajla: too bad.
09:16 DT``: today it's not a great day to program for me, lol.
09:17 DT``: rudybot, ((rec (loop x) (loop (print (eval (read))))) (void))
09:17 rudybot: DT``: error: with-limit: out of time
09:27 Lajla: rudybot, (define-syntax (while stx) (syntax-case stx () ((while cond do ...) (with-syntax ((break (datum->syntax #'while 'break))) #'(call/cc (lambda (break) (let loop () (when cond do ... (loop))))))))
09:27 rudybot: Lajla:      (datum->syntax #'fv2 `(list ,@(map (lambda (x) `(quote ,x))
09:27 Lajla: Nooooo
09:27 Lajla: fucked my brackets up. =(
09:28 DT``: Lajla,
09:28 Lajla: me,
09:29 DT``: use (let/ec break ...) instead of call/cc, for that.
09:29 Lajla: oh yeah
09:29 Lajla: that also exists.
09:29 Lajla: anyway, it's in a macro man.
09:29 Lajla: But yeah, I guess.
09:29 Lajla: Isn't that let/cc by the way?
09:29 Lajla: DT``, but anyway, you get my point don't you?
09:29 DT``: it's usually faster than call/cc, and prevents you to return break.
09:30 DT``: sure, there's also let/cc.
09:30 Lajla: it prevents you to return break?
09:30 Lajla: But what if you want to return it?
09:30 DT``: (while #t break) ; => #<continuation>
09:30 Lajla: I don't know, I think returning escape continuations is fun.
09:30 Lajla: Yeah,
09:30 Lajla: that's cool.
09:31 Lajla: ACtually (while #t (break break))
09:31 DT``: with let/ec that can't happen.
09:31 DT``: oh, yeah.
09:31 DT``: that.
09:31 Lajla: My while returns (void) unless break is used.
09:31 Lajla: why not?
09:31 Lajla: What happens when you do that then?
09:31 Lajla: Wih let/ec?
09:31 Lajla: If you do (break break)
09:31 Lajla: rudybot, (let/ec break (break break))
09:31 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #<escape-continuation>
09:31 Lajla: there you go.
09:31 Lajla: rudybot, (let/ec break break)
09:31 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #<escape-continuation>
09:31 DT``: rudybot, (define (f) (let/ec k k)) (define x (f)) (x 2)
09:31 rudybot: DT``: use (let/ec break ...) instead of call/cc, for that.
09:32 Lajla: ahahah
09:32 DT``: lolwhat.
09:32 DT``: rudybot, (define (f) (let/ec k k))
09:32 rudybot: DT``: error: with-limit: out of memory
09:32 DT``: .
09:32 Lajla: DT``, rudybot just grabs a random line from the log it deems 'related' when your grammar is not grammar.
09:32 DT``: rudybot, hello!
09:32 rudybot: DT``: Hello, channel founder! :D
09:33 DT``: thank you!
09:33 DT``: (lol, I'm the founder)
09:33 Lajla: rudybot, mene mukaan koreaan.
09:33 rudybot: Lajla: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
09:33 DT``: rudybot, help
09:33 rudybot: DT``: help [<what>], version, quote, source, seen <nick>, uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>, later "tell" <nick> <something> ...
09:34 DT``: Lajla, btw try in racket:
09:34 DT``: ((let/cc k k) 2)
09:34 DT``: and ((let/ec k k) 2)
09:35 DT``: basically, the continuation produced by let/ec only works inside its body.
09:35 DT``: rudybot, later tell DT-sama if you are me, change your nickname.
09:35 rudybot: minion: memo for DT-sama: DT`` told me to tell you: if you are me, change your nickname.
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09:36 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 7679e91 (2 files in 1 dirs): win32: fix `ffi-lib' for non-ASCII in `ffi/unsafe'
09:36 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * ca8c6a8 (1 files in 1 dirs): cocoa: fix `play-sound' ...
09:36 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 968bf81 (1 files in 1 dirs): win32: fix `play-sound' ...
09:36 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 0b496d5...968bf81 - http://bit.ly/f9urZr
09:36 (part) PLT_Notify
09:40 Lajla: DT``, ahh
09:40 Lajla: so this is the difference between a 'continuation' and an 'escape continuation'?
09:40 DT``: yea.
09:59 DT``: I've finally got my copy of LoL \?/
10:03 Lajla: Lord of the Lings?
10:04 Lajla: Ohh
10:04 Lajla: Let over Lambda
10:04 Lajla: The one with that itchy title.
10:04 Lajla: itchy introduction*
10:18 DT``: land of lisp.
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10:18 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * 7378c2e (1 files in 1 dirs): added cdot - http://bit.ly/ijJZM0
10:18 (part) PLT_Notify
10:19 DT``: I'll buy Let over IP at the next book-buying iteration.
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13:53 adrian_: hi all - I'm a newbie to Racket. Can anyone tell me if it would work allow one to build iDevice apps?
14:05 bremner: adrian_: the closest thing is probably "moby"
14:06 adrian_: what's that?
14:06 adrian_: I guess I can google
14:06 bremner: http://planet.plt-scheme.org/
14:06 bremner: oops
14:06 bremner: http://planet.plt-scheme.org/package-source/dyoo/moby.plt/3/5/planet-docs/manual/index.html
14:06 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/63ucuqy
14:08 adrian_: so there's nothing to compile to objective-C?
14:09 Lajla: Doesn't racket compile to C and is objective C a superset of C
14:12 adrian_: you're asking a newbie here - was that a rhetorical question with a yes answer?
14:12 Lajla: Ehhh
14:12 Lajla: Let me rephrase
14:13 Lajla: 'racket compiles to C and objective C is a strict superset of C, therefore racket compiles to objective C and therefore I don't understand your quaestion'
14:13 adrian_: I've seen something about an FFI to Objective-C, but I guess this wouldn't be something available from Moby, right?
14:13 (join) dude_
14:13 adrian_: but does it compile to C for the ARM platform?
14:14 dude_: Hi
14:14 Lajla: Doesn't that depend on the C compiler you further use to get that C to machine code.
14:14 dude_: I have a question
14:14 Lajla: I have an answer
14:14 dude_: About namespace-require
14:14 Lajla: not sure if it's for your quaestion though
14:14 dude_: Ok
14:15 dude_: I will ask anyway
14:16 dude_: I create a new namespace  (define ns (make-base-namespace)), and then I set it to be the current namespace (parameterize ([current-namespace ns]) ...), and then I load a module into the current namespace using namespace-require, but I am not able to access the stuff provided by that module...
14:16 dude_: I get unbound identifier in module error
14:17 dude_: What am I doing wrong. Presumably the module needs to be instatiated or visited (or something) when it is "required", but it looks like maybe namespace-require doesn't do that
14:17 dude_: Am I missing some step, or am I just misusing these features
14:18 Lajla: To be honest
14:18 Lajla: I have no idea.
14:18 Lajla: But the answer 'recalibrate the dilithium matrix'  may be for another problem you may face in the future.
14:18 clklein: dude_ Is the code with the unbound identifier in the parameterize's body or is it code that you're constructing at runtime and eval-ing?
14:19 clklein: (parameterize ... (namespace-require ...) x) or (parameterize ... (namespace-require ...) (eval 'x))?
14:20 dude_: It is in parameterize body
14:20 bremner: adrian_: afaik, racket does not compile to C, not to objective C. there are other schemes that compile to C, but I don't know if that will help you in apple world.
14:21 dude_: (parameterize ([current-namespace ns])     (namespace-require <some module>)        <some identifier from module>   )
14:22 adrian_: bremner: did you mean  to say that it does compile to C or does not?
14:22 bremner: adrian_: I meant to say not to C, nor to Objective C
14:23 adrian_: thanks
14:23 dude_: The identifier is in the body, I am not constructing the code at runtime and eval'ing
14:23 clklein: dude_: The problem is that the namespace-require happens at runtime. At compile time, Racket sees some-id-from-module and says "hey I don't recognize that name"
14:23 dude_: Ok
14:23 dude_: Is there some way to get it to compile anyway?
14:24 dude_: I am using drracket
14:24 dude_: Maybe that is the problem?
14:24 clklein: no
14:25 clklein: namespace-require just doesn't do what you want
14:26 clklein: You could construct expressions at runtime and use `eval' to evaluate them, but that's not likely to be the right thing.
14:26 clklein: You know about the `require' form, right?
14:27 Lajla: bremner, doesn't racket compile to C and use a C compiler from there?
14:28 dude_: Ok, it works if I use eval, but I am wondering if there is some way to do it without eval. What I am trying to do is to dynamically load (and "unload" by creating new namespaces) modules and running the same code on them
14:28 dude_: What is the require form?
14:29 DT``: Lajla, no, it compiles to bytecode.
14:29 clklein: It's the usual way to load modules (i.e., statically)
14:29 DT``: (that will eventually be JIT compiled)
14:29 Lajla: No wai
14:29 clklein: dude_: If you have to load the module dynamically, then you're stuck with eval.
14:29 Lajla: I could have sworn I was told here that it compiled to C and used a trampoline
14:30 dude_: Ok, thanks clklein :)
14:31 DT``: Lajla, that's Chicken.
14:31 DT``: if I recall correctly.
14:32 clklein: dude_: np.
14:32 Lajla: DT``, well, it's a common technique, chicken doesn't use it though.
14:32 Lajla: chicken uses CPS and uses the garbage it generates on the C stack as a heap or something.
14:32 (quit) dude_: Quit: Page closed
14:32 Lajla: Forgot what, but it used it for something.
14:33 clklein: dude_: BTW, if you want to understand these issues better, I recommend this section of the Guide: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/reflection.html
14:33 DT``: Oh, yeah, Chicken is the stackrobatics one.
14:33 Lajla: nice term.
14:43 adrian_: I'm trying out Moby as per the link above (http://planet.plt-scheme.org/package-source/dyoo/moby.plt/3/5/planet-docs/manual/index.html), but I'm getting an error when doing the quick start. The page mentions that DrRacket 5.0.1 is required - is that true and the reason for not working or is the code presented in Quick Start not work for others?
14:43 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/63ucuqy
14:45 adrian_: the very first part of the Quick Start does work - where it pulls in the package from Planet and does the checks.
14:47 clklein: adrian_: Is this what you're seeing? http://groups.google.com/group/racket-users/browse_thread/thread/ecdd46f8585f8aad?pli=1
14:47 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/5vl3fyw
14:48 adrian_: yes - thanks, clklein
14:49 adrian_: I presume it'll be update to work with 5.1, since I don't recall seeing a 5.0.2, right?
14:50 clklein: There was a 5.0.2. I assume that Moby will eventually work with 5.1, unless there's a newer version before Moby reaches that point :)
14:58 adrian_: nother topic - when I was starting DrRacket for the first time, there was a logged warning about not finding the font Helvetica on my system (Windows), that some other sans serif font would be used and that I could expect ugliness as a result. Can't I just substitute Arial for this? I searched and the only mention of Helvetica that I could find is in font-dir.rkt. If I change this reference to Arial will DrRacket be smart and re-che
15:04 bremner: adrian_: you can set fonts in the menus.
15:05 adrian_: under Preferences?
15:06 adrian_: I saw that, but I see that under the font tab, Courier New is the selected font. since this is a serif font, I was assuming that the logged warning was referring to a font being used somewhere else.
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15:07 adrian_: the warning mentioned Pango - I don't know what that's all about.
15:08 (nick) mario-go` -> mario-goulart`
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15:08 (nick) mario-goulart` -> mario-goulart
15:11 adrian_: I see that Pango is a lib for text layout - is this used when creating graphics with DrRacket? If so, where would it's configuration be found so that I could set the font that it uses to Arial(the Helvetica equivalent on Windows)?
15:13 bremner: I'm not on windows, so I probably can't help too much.  Did you try picking a few different fonts from that menu and see if they look better?
15:20 adrian_: that just changes the editor font. I'm assuming that the warning was about a font that would be used by Pango for rendering text when creating it programatically
15:20 adrian_: don't know if that's the case, though
15:22 bremner: adrian_: do you actually see some ugliness?
15:23 adrian_: not in the source editor, but I'd like to avoid it if creating text using whatever API is available
15:24 bremner: adrian_: I would wait until you have an actual problem, before you try to fix it.
15:25 adrian_: yeah, I guess you're right - just don't like seeing messages like these - Pango: couldn't load font "Helvetica Medium Not-Rotated 10", falling back to "Sans Medium Not-Rotated 10", expect ugly output. - when Arial is available.
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16:29 jonrafkind: I wish some the racket documentation had motivation for some of the functions
16:29 jonrafkind: as opposed to just a description of what the function does
16:30 jeapostrophe: we've had that discussion here
16:30 jeapostrophe: the guide gives broader use cases and composition but no real motivation
16:30 jeapostrophe: the racket/match guide is classic
16:30 jeapostrophe: > (match 2
16:30 jeapostrophe: [1 'one]
16:30 jeapostrophe: [2 'two]
16:30 jeapostrophe: [3 'three])
16:30 jeapostrophe: 'two
16:31 jonrafkind: its annoying for me as a user to have them split up
16:31 jonrafkind: because now I have to go find the function in the guide, maybe each function in the reference should have a link to its corresponding guide part
16:31 jeapostrophe: most sections do
16:31 jeapostrophe: but the guide isn't about "functions"
16:32 jonrafkind: well yea thats true, i guess its just the docs im looking at that doesn't
16:32 jonrafkind: the unstable docs, to be specific
16:32 jonrafkind: for which you might say, shouldn't have a guide part :p
16:32 jeapostrophe: yup :)
16:33 jonrafkind: every time I write a utility function I think "wait, im probably wasting my time, im sure this exists somewhere in the racket collects" but I usually can't find it
16:34 jonrafkind: what we really need (or what I want) is a database that connects user submitted queries with the most relevant matches
16:34 jonrafkind: like when you ask a question on stackoverflow and it suggests some questions that are similar
16:35 jeapostrophe: isn't that just asking for stackoverflow and google to have more racket content to work with?
16:35 jonrafkind: essentially yes
16:35 (quit) adrians_: Quit: Page closed
16:35 jonrafkind: thats probably more stackoverflow's forte than google's, but still
16:36 jeapostrophe: i wonder if we should push people to SO and spend more time there specifically for this purpose
16:36 askhader: SO?
16:36 askhader: Search optimization?
16:36 jeapostrophe: stack overflow
16:37 askhader: Oh.
16:37 jonrafkind: sometimes I feel that stackoverflow is a little too formal, which raises the barrier for people who want to ask questions. IRC has basically the lowest barrier possible
16:37 jonrafkind: but still, probably we should use stackoverflow more often
16:37 askhader: Is it a formality barrier?
16:37 askhader: I suppose it is, because your words are published.
16:37 askhader: It would help
16:37 jonrafkind: that and the stackoverflow guards get a little anal about how you word questions
16:37 jeapostrophe: we could, for example, duplicate questions that we see on the mailing list/irc on to so
16:38 askhader: This would have profound effects, I think.
16:38 jeapostrophe: like, i could ask the question and you could answer it, just to fill the database
16:38 jonrafkind: there are lots of people who probably just give up instead of asking on the mailing list or stackoverflow, or even irc
16:38 askhader: jonrafkind: This number is larger.
16:38 askhader: Large*
16:38 jonrafkind: well, thats my feeling to :p
16:39 jonrafkind: the only evidence I have of that is talking to undergraduates
16:39 askhader: As a member of the computer science club at my University (which uses racket as a language for teaching) exhibits exactly this behaviour.
16:39 askhader: The result is that racket and scheme are widely avoided.
16:39 jeapostrophe: i think people will search for answers on so and google (ie the mailing list and random forums) MUCH more than they will post on them
16:39 jonrafkind: yes
16:39 jonrafkind: something like that john did for the errors is a great step in this direction
16:39 askhader: er exactly this behaviour is exhibited*
16:39 jeapostrophe: which suggests if we actively pushed content there it would be good
16:40 jonrafkind: a while ago I wanted to integrate this functionality into drracket, have a field where people can ask stuff and it would be publishde to the "Cloud", and anyone can answer it
16:40 jonrafkind: so the barrier to entry is really low and easily accessible
16:40 askhader: That's a terrific idea.
16:41 askhader: I'm very pleased with how DrRacket's help desk as well.
16:41 jonrafkind: it almost exists today in the form of ardvark, its an IM bot that you can talk to, ask it a question and it will dispatch to users who might answer it
16:41 jonrafkind: it works pretty well
16:41 askhader: Interesting.
16:42 jonrafkind: although people ask some strange questions, like really specific stuff about J2ME and android or whatever, i pass on almost all questions these days
16:42 askhader: w.
16:42 askhader: Ew*.
16:42 jonrafkind: that has occured on stackoverflow, I saw some post by the people who run it that said the number of esoteric questions has risen dramataically
16:43 jonrafkind: if you search stackoverflow for unanswered questions there are a myriad questions that are super specific
16:43 jonrafkind: such is life when there are hundreds of choices of components and almost infinite ways to combine them, asking about a specific configuration of compoinents is almost guaranteed to be unique
16:44 askhader: I suppose.
16:44 askhader: This suggests that the configuration isn't sound.
16:44 (join) tauntaun
16:44 jonrafkind: well it just means it has a high learning curve
16:45 Lajla: jonrafkind,
16:45 jonrafkind: even learning racket takes (honestly) years
16:45 Lajla: your blog is unintelligible.
16:45 jonrafkind: which blog
16:45 jonrafkind: i have so many these days
16:45 askhader: =O
16:45 askhader: Pimp.
16:45 Lajla: http://www.cs.utah.edu/~rafkind/wordpress/ this one
16:45 Lajla: I could tell it was yours, as it has your name on it, and it's as unintelligible as you.
16:45 jonrafkind: I put at least 5 minutes effort into each of those posts
16:46 jonrafkind: this is my best blog http://rafkind.com/jon/blog.php
16:46 tauntaun: Lajla: "as you *are*."
16:46 Lajla: javascript
16:46 jonrafkind: see I had a blog before that wordpress one and I tried to transfer one post between them, it was a pain and didn't work so well, so I gave up
16:46 Lajla: http://rafkind.com/curly.jpg diz is you?
16:46 Lajla: Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Access denied for user 'rafkind_jon'@'c7.phxv.nearlyfreespeech.net' (using password: YES) in /f5/rafkind/public/jon/db/db.php on line 112
16:46 Lajla: oh shit
16:46 jonrafkind: yea thats what I look like
16:47 Lajla: oh wait
16:47 jonrafkind: we transferred hosting providers and i never got around to fixing my database
16:47 Lajla: that's probably just a boolean
16:47 Lajla: and not your real password
16:47 jonrafkind: and now I don't really care about that site anymore
16:47 Lajla: My blog is as white as the macbook store.
16:48 Lajla: And I have lately coined the term 'misodendric' on it for people who enjoy having 1em spacing between lines in sociology papers.
16:48 askhader: Is it powered by Racket?!
16:48 Lajla: It's gonna be a hit.
16:48 Lajla: No, wordpress
16:48 Lajla: Buuuuut
16:48 askhader: =/
16:48 Lajla: served as XML
16:48 Lajla: "random thoughts stupid people will find morally offensive and moral people will find stupidly offensive"
16:48 Lajla: Most catchy tagline ever
16:49 askhader: It's certainly up there.
16:49 jonrafkind: jeapostrophe, what would be really cool is if our documentation linked *to* stackoverflow for discussion of the relevant function. something like this: http://www.allegro.cc/manual/5/al_wait_for_event
16:49 jeapostrophe: ya
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16:50 jonrafkind: which is esssentially what php.net has as well
16:50 jonrafkind: and is the most useful thing ever
16:50 Lajla: No that would be automated machines that slice pizza.
16:50 Lajla: Sliced pizza, best invention ever.
16:51 askhader: Of course in the case of php.net it's absolutely necessary that the user discussion is there as so you can be told in which ways the functions are deeply flawed.
16:51 jonrafkind: yea yea :p
16:51 askhader: s/as//
16:51 Lajla: elitist
16:51 jonrafkind: but people actually show you how to use the function in a reasonable manner
16:51 askhader: Only I'm not kidding. I can produce a few such functions.
16:51 askhader: Sure.
16:51 jonrafkind: I read php.net to learn how to use the new goto statement!
16:51 askhader: I'm not arguing the usefulness.
16:52 askhader: What's wrong with the old goto?
16:52 Lajla: practicalist
16:52 askhader: Well, plenty. =P
16:52 askhader: Sticks and stone.
16:56 (quit) lucian: Remote host closed the connection
16:56 Lajla: illuminatist
16:56 Lajla: So like
16:56 Lajla: what do you guys think about the possible HT nerf
16:56 Lajla: the removing of the khaydarin amulet upgrade?
16:57 Lajla: I dunno, I think it's overkill to remove an upgrade which is so deeply intrenched into the game at this point because storm warpins against drops are too powerful.
16:57 Lajla: I kind of think that the warpins were a difficult thing to make out to work from the start with any unit.
16:57 askhader: HT?
16:59 jonrafkind: is that starcraft jibberjabber?
16:59 Lajla: askhader, high templar.
16:59 Lajla: jonrafkind, this is some deeply strategical stuff that deeply divides the community.
17:00 Lajla: They are possibly going to remove the khaydarin amulet upgrade in patch 1.3
17:00 askhader is on the fence about SC2
17:00 askhader: T'will consume my soul as it has yours.
17:00 Lajla: askhader, well, it gives me a reason to bitch about C++ on the strat fora when a bug is found.
17:01 Lajla: And rant about type systems, good place to be elitst.
17:01 Lajla: But come on, the change is pretty radical.
17:01 askhader: Wait, why does it give you that reason?
17:01 Lajla: This is only the scond time they outright removed an upgrade rather than adjusting the cost or research time, and the first was already controversial.
17:01 Lajla: I search for them.
17:02 Lajla: And yeah, the argument that you can warp in a ht with enough energy for a storm immediately after the upgrade while other races have to wait longer is potent, but this is applies to like any protoss unit due to the warpin mechanic.
17:02 Lajla: 'Oh, no anti air left and banshees wrecking me, let's warp in 6 stalkers and shoot it down'
17:03 Lajla: this is just a racial advantage, zerg has larvae and all, terran has ehr... well, MULEs and they can stim I suppose.
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17:33 Lajla: No one has input regarding the KA nerf. -_
17:33 Lajla: You'd almost think that you guys have no idea what I'm talking about.
17:40 samth: Lajla, yup
17:41 (quit) bandu: Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/
17:41 Lajla: Well, on #starcraft on Espernet a lot of people do program in racket and scheme actually.
17:41 jonrafkind: really?
17:41 jonrafkind: to control the AI?
17:43 Lajla: No, just to program.
17:43 Lajla: A lot seem to be quite the fan of functional programming there.
17:43 Lajla: THere was this one guy who liked C++ and they were like totally and elitistly dissing him.
17:45 jonrafkind: people that defend c++ should be ridiculed, but if he used it for practical purposes then thats mean
17:46 Lajla: No, he actually defended it
17:46 Lajla: called it his 'favourite lan guage'
17:46 Lajla: If I recall, the reaction of the channel was three independent users after each other typing 'wot', looked kind of comical.
17:50 DT``: it's language bashing time?
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17:52 Lajla: Your remark implying the existing of a time where bashing inferior programming languages is not appropriate, sir?
17:54 DT``: surely not, but if it was, I had to take out the popcorn. *takes out popcorn*
17:56 Lajla: Let's get dangerous.
17:56 DT``: With ``C and C++ are not Turing-complete''?
18:01 Lajla: No
18:01 Lajla: Darkwing Duck man
18:01 Lajla: he always said that
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18:48 Senjai: ...
18:50 Senjai: Anyone here?
18:50 jonrafkind: no
18:54 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving
18:56 Lajla: Dutch people don't kind.
18:56 Lajla: count
18:56 clklein: jonrafkind: Are you familiar with Hoogle?
18:57 jonrafkind: no
18:57 jonrafkind: whats that
18:57 jonrafkind: oh haskell search engine
18:57 clklein: http://www.haskell.org/hoogle/
18:57 clklein: Would searching by a function's signature help you find the miscellaneous utilities in unstable?
18:57 jonrafkind: nice, i searched for Int -> String
18:58 jonrafkind: it might
18:59 clklein: I'm not sure if this would be harder with contracts in place of types, but I'd certainly like to see someone try
18:59 jonrafkind: we really need some fuzzy matching thing
18:59 clklein: yes probably
18:59 clklein: Hoogle does some of that I think
19:01 jonrafkind: sort of unrelated, but doing a git search of a function would be helpful as well
19:01 jonrafkind: because seeing a use-case of it is just as useful as reading the docs
19:01 jonrafkind: so it woul dbe nice if the docs had a link to the git search thing we have to do that for you
19:02 jonrafkind: gotta run..
19:03 clklein: Do you find that you can usually understand enough of the context for the example use to make sense?
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19:52 Senjai: http://www.sharenator.com/w/freenode.net
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19:57 Lajla: Ahaha
19:57 Lajla: funny site.
19:57 Lajla: Senjai,
19:57 Lajla: what is your opinion about the khaydarin amulet issue?
20:09 Senjai: I dont know anything about it?
20:12 (quit) tauntaun: Quit: Ex-Chat
20:18 Lajla: Senjai, =(
20:19 Senjai: Whayt
20:19 Senjai: .l.
20:20 Lajla: Senjai, basically it's an upgrade that can be purchased at the templar archives for 150 minerals and 150 gas that gives high templars +25 energy when they spawn, they normally spawn with 50 and psionic storm, their most potent spell requires 75 energy, so they can instantly storm after being warped in with the upgrade. Blizzardis contempltating removing it which is controversial because it's a large change and the 'storm warpin' is deeply entr
20:20 Lajla: enched into a variety of playstyles.
20:20 Senjai: Starcraft
20:20 Lajla: Senjai, of course.
20:20 Senjai: no juego :(
20:20 Lajla: You talk like there are more important things in life than mindsports which reward koreanness like no other.
20:20 Lajla: Senjai, what?
20:21 Senjai: I dont play
20:21 Senjai: lol
20:21 Senjai: I did, used to
20:22 Lajla: Senjai, then you must know about the khaydarin amulet.
20:22 Lajla: THis is StarCraft II though
20:22 Lajla: some things have changed
20:22 Senjai: Ive played both haha
20:22 Lajla: protoss can now perform warpins, basically you can spawn your gateway units in random locations you have a pylon field going.
20:22 Lajla: Senjai, you did?
20:23 Senjai: Ive beaten SCII
20:23 Lajla: How can you not know about te khaydarin amulet then.
20:23 Lajla: the campaign you mean?
20:23 Senjai: yes
20:23 Lajla: Yeah, thne you know about the warpins right?
20:23 Senjai: Yes
20:23 Lajla: I think in the protoss mini campaign templar automatically already have the upgrade.
20:23 Lajla: in the multiplayer you need to research things like blink, charge, storm, colossus range and all that
20:24 Lajla: In the campaign the colossus starts with 9 range, in the multiplayer, it starts with 6, you need to research the extended thermal lances to get 9.
20:24 Lajla: Senjai, but basically, blizzard is thinking about removing it. =(
20:24 Lajla: I think that's overkill.
20:24 Lajla: Changes the metagame too much.
20:25 Senjai: lol
20:25 Lajla: Senjai, no, seriously.
20:25 Senjai: Ugh, I cant pla videogames anymore
20:25 Lajla: Like, Terrans can now pretty much blind counter vikings as they know you're going colossus provided they don't go mech.
20:25 Lajla: Senjai, noo
20:25 Lajla: mind sport
20:25 Lajla: not video game
20:25 Lajla: mind sport.
20:26 Lajla: When you play the multiplayer you realize that it's not a mere game at all.
20:26 Senjai: I know lol!
20:26 Lajla: It requires relentless training to develop your strategic senses.
20:26 Senjai: I just dont hafve time for it lol
20:26 Lajla: THat is why it is not a game!
20:26 Lajla: It is a way of life.
20:26 Senjai: << Director, Corporate Communications | Proteous Trading Group
20:26 Lajla: You can never be top level tennis and snooker
20:26 Lajla: You have to choose.
20:27 Lajla << Dutch
20:29 Lajla: Senjai, also, I've beaten the single player on brutal 14 hours after I first opened the game, the only mission I had to re-do (3 times no less) was the final one.
20:30 Senjai: lol
20:30 Senjai: WHy
20:30 Lajla: In the end I did it by just walling myself in behind 3 planetary fortresses with a tonne of SCV's on autorepair and just mass nuking kerrigan.
20:30 Senjai: why do you just play videogames
20:30 Senjai: I mean your educated right?
20:30 Lajla: No I'm not.
20:30 Lajla: I dropped out man.
20:30 Senjai: Of University
20:30 Senjai: ..
20:30 Lajla: Yea
20:30 Senjai: So your not stupid
20:31 Lajla: And I don't 'just play videogames'
20:31 Senjai: How old are you/
20:31 Lajla: 18 or something.
20:31 Lajla: Yeah, already 18.
20:31 Senjai: What year did you get to?
20:31 Lajla: on paper I finished the second year, but in reality I was already no longer attending that much at 1.5
20:31 Lajla: At the end of year two they thought it was cool to give me a forced institutionalization.
20:32 Lajla: And I never came back.
20:32 Senjai: Year 2 at 18? What system do you guys run?
20:32 Senjai: Forced institutionalization?
20:32 Lajla: It's actually normal to start at 18-19 here.
20:32 Lajla: Yeah
20:32 Lajla: mental asylum
20:33 Senjai: Same here, but year 2 usually finishes at 19.
20:33 Senjai: Comp Sci major?
20:33 Lajla: You know, the whole shit of 'Well, if you don't want to take antipsychotics who have been shown to damage your brain matter as a side effect, then you are a danger to yourself and should be locked up' kind of pseudo-medicine.
20:33 Lajla: Nahhh
20:33 Lajla: maths and physics.
20:33 Lajla: which was a mistake.
20:33 Lajla: But to be honest, I didn't put that much effort in choosing.
20:33 Senjai: Why didnt you take comp sci?
20:33 Lajla: That'd also be a mistake.
20:33 Senjai: It sounds like your kinda fied
20:33 Senjai: Or engineering?
20:34 Lajla: THat'd be a total mistake.
20:34 Senjai: How so?
20:34 Lajla: I'm not a practical person.
20:34 Lajla: Too much linear algebra
20:34 Lajla: Which I was never a real star in anyway.
20:34 Lajla: Or in anything.
20:34 Lajla: But to be honest, I don't trust the exams.
20:34 Lajla: I mean
20:34 Lajla: the grades I got seemed to be more related to the corrector that checked the exams than to how well I made them.
20:35 Senjai: You don't have to.
20:35 Senjai: In University you do what you need to do to get out with a piece of paper that says you know something about your field'
20:35 Lajla: THe most extreme example was that one of those dudes gave me a 4.5 or something and the lectures was like 'That can't be true.' and he checked it himself, and then it was a 9.5
20:35 Lajla: But he did say that he tried really hard to give me as much points as possible.
20:35 Senjai: Then you can di whatever thenon
20:36 Senjai: University only gives you crediblity, not education or anything ese
20:36 Lajla: (In the Dutch system 1 is lowest, 10 is highest, 5.5 is passing, almost no one gets higher than 8.5 or lower than 3.5)
20:36 Lajla: Well, I happen to suck at making tests and exams.
20:37 Senjai: Im a BUSINESS major, what they teach us in business, I already know to be incorrect
20:37 Lajla: Senjai, but I guess that in exact science, you are some-what less dependent on diplomata.
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20:38 Senjai: sorry lajla
20:38 Lajla: A guy I know got a Ph.D. without getting his M.Sc. before it like it's customary, they were like 'Well, you know enough, I'm willing to bank my reputation on advising you'
20:38 Senjai: Get out of the dutch system
20:38 Senjai: go to a country of reputation
20:38 Lajla: The father of a Ph.D. student I know also never got any degree and works as a research mathematician.
20:38 Lajla: What do you mean with a country of reputation?
20:38 Senjai: Germany, England, France.
20:39 Lajla: ऐपबWhy?
20:39 Lajla: Dutch universities are a lot better than any of those.
20:39 Senjai: Countries that allow for Ph. D's without education have no scientific credibility
20:39 Lajla: What you have to realize is how small this country is.
20:39 Lajla: Not without education
20:39 Lajla: without degrees.
20:39 Senjai: No evidence of education
20:39 Lajla: THey judged he had M.Sc level knowledge.
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20:40 Lajla: Senjai, plenty of evidence, he got into contact with his adviser because he solved a problem his adviser couldn't.
20:40 Senjai: They, being more people with doctorates without degrees?
20:40 Lajla: Senjai, well 'they' being his adviser
20:40 Lajla: wHo of course already had a Ph.D.
20:40 Lajla: Also, Ph.D.'s in the netherlands go by the state, not by an institution.
20:41 Lajla: The standards here are a looot higher for that than in other countries.
20:41 Lajla: ALl universities in the ntherlands are essentially ivy league level, else it's not called a university but a HBO.
20:41 Lajla: 'higher vocational education'
20:42 Lajla: THere are like only 8 universities in this country and doing university is a prestigeous thing that like only 0.5% of people get to do.
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20:43 Senjai: That's a problem, not something to be proud of.
20:43 Senjai: Point me to peer revied dutch journals
20:43 Senjai: reviewed*
20:43 bremner: heh
20:43 Senjai: That have been accepted by the scientific community at large
20:44 bremner: Senjai: google elsevier
20:44 Lajla: Senjai, it's to be proud to have been in Dutch universities.
20:45 Lajla: Dutch universities aren't like in the states, that's called HBO here.
20:45 Lajla: universities are essentially all ivy league level here.
20:45 Senjai: Im not in the states, Im canadian
20:45 Lajla: Well, I'm just using the states as an example.
20:46 Lajla: The Dutch education system is... convoluted.
20:46 Senjai: But these Universities are not considered, Ivy League
20:46 Lajla: there are no less than 8 different levels of secondary school, only the highest allows for university.
20:46 Senjai: They are not reputable, they do not have sufficient funds for scalable R&D.
20:46 Senjai: I noticed.
20:46 Lajla: Wot?
20:46 Lajla: Duuude,
20:46 Lajla: Leiden has like the coldest point in the universe.
20:47 Lajla: Minix was developped at the university that I studied at.
20:47 Lajla: NIKHEF is like one of the biggest players in CERN.
20:48 Senjai: So these Universities stack against harvard, mit, brown, princeton, yale, etc
20:48 Senjai: Oxford, LSE..
20:49 Senjai: I havent heard of any of the Universities you mentioned
20:49 Lajla: Minix was developped here.
20:49 Lajla: Or how about the ILLC
20:50 Lajla: People from all over the world go to amsterdam for the ILLC
20:51 Senjai: And weed.
20:51 Senjai: lol
20:51 Lajla: Yeah well, that too.
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20:52 Lajla: But anyway, the original point was that I became some-what sceptical of this system and that I don't really have any ambitions to get a fancy title and I can support myself now by doing some graphics work and writing some sound tracks for indie games here and there so I don't really need it.
20:53 Senjai: Lajla: So admittance into Leiden requires a diploma of comparison to International Baccularette
20:53 Lajla: Senjai, I don't know.
20:54 Lajla: how that works internationally
20:54 Lajla: You need a VWO diploma here or perform a coloquum doctum.
20:54 Senjai: IB is something we have here
20:54 Senjai: Im on Leiden's site
20:54 Lajla: But all universities require the same here.
20:54 Senjai: IB > VWO
20:55 Senjai: Someone who graduates with an IB Diploma with 3 HLs, and a score of 7 ish has equivilant of first year University
20:55 Lajla: first year university in what country and what system?
20:56 Lajla: People from the states who come study physics here and already have done a year there often need a crash course because they have too little mathematical knowledge.
20:56 Lajla: VWO is a 6 year education that is only done by the top 4-2%
20:57 Senjai: IB is accepted everywhere, its headquartered in Geneva
20:57 Senjai: International Students coming to Canada all must have an IB or AP equivilant standing
20:58 Senjai: AP = Advanced Placement (American version of IB)
20:58 Senjai: The program I am in had a 4% acceptance rate.
20:58 Lajla: I have no idea if you need an IB, probably if it's that international, I have no idea.
20:58 Lajla: All programs here have 100% acceptance rate
20:58 Lajla: You can't apply namely if you don't meet the criteria.
20:58 Lajla: THey can't deny you if you do.
20:59 Senjai: That.. is .. kinda stupid
20:59 Lajla: Unless they don't have enough space or something, and then it has to go via a lottery.
20:59 (quit) ckrailo: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
20:59 Senjai: See we have minimum criteria.
20:59 Lajla: No, that's a cool system that stops people from being accepted because of things like skin colour if they meet the criteria.
20:59 Senjai: The minimum criteria for my program is an 86% average
20:59 Lajla: They have to advertise their criteria in advance, if you meet them you can apply.
21:00 Senjai: The average admitted average was 93%
21:00 Senjai: THEN
21:00 Lajla: THere is no 'interview' or anything, you fill out a form and you've applied, tadaa.
21:00 Senjai: Your marks were worth 60% of the admission decision, the remaining 40% were decided by supplemental application
21:00 Lajla: Wat's that?
21:00 Senjai: Im in canada, the most multicultural nation in the world.
21:01 Lajla: I'm pretty sure india is more multicultural.
21:01 Lajla: Or suriname.
21:01 Senjai: An application consisting of Extra Curriculars, Work Experience, and awards that would consider you to be better than another applicatn
21:02 Lajla: Universities are by law here not allowed to consider any of those because they don't have legal validity.
21:02 Lajla: It's discrimination or something.
21:02 Senjai: ... lol
21:02 Senjai: How?
21:02 Lajla: Well
21:02 Lajla: you can always say 'I do not take your application because of work experience'
21:02 Senjai: Universities in canada, do not get any knowledge of ethnicity
21:02 Lajla: While in reality it's 'I don't take it as you're a woman'
21:02 Senjai: Yea, we dont have that problem here
21:02 Lajla: Do you have to fill in your name?
21:03 Senjai: Yes, and i know what your thinking, cut it out.
21:03 Lajla: Of course you do, it's so easy.
21:03 Senjai: First year admission to Sauder was 52%
21:03 Senjai: for feamles
21:03 Senjai: they comprise 52% of all admitted applicants
21:03 Lajla: And of course people have been denied in the past because their name was Ahmed Al-Farid instead of John Robertson.
21:03 Senjai: 40% of Sauder is international
21:04 Senjai: No, I'm sorry you have that problem in your nation, there is no racism in my establishment
21:04 Senjai: We have many from india, saudi arabia, africa
21:05 Senjai: In Vancouver (and Vancouver IS the most multicultural city in the world) More women are going to Uni then men
21:05 Lajla: Oh don't be so naïve.
21:05 Lajla: Of course that happens
21:05 Lajla: that happens everywhere
21:05 Lajla: the quaestion is how much it happens.
21:05 Senjai: I'm sorrry?
21:07 Lajla: What's more to explain?
21:07 Lajla: Not to mention that of course people wlil always be subconsciously influenced by a variety of stuff down to just how handsome you are.
21:07 Lajla: Handsome people are hired more no matter where you live, that's hard to dispute.
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